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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 14:13:45
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I've read the Avatar series, but not the Shadow of the Avatar series. From everything that I read, it take place at the same time. Is it worth reading? It's seems like events unfold without Elminster too much in the Avatar series after Shadowdale. Do the book contradict each other?
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Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 17:28:13
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Hated it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1271 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 17:35:57
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I really enjoyed the first book of that series, more than the Avatar trilogy (which I didn't care for). The second book was "okay" and the third book was a bit off. But I think it's very good reading from a realmslore standpoint.
Also, it gave me the impression that Elminster is so busy trying to put out a million fires before they become infernoes (all over the realms)--showing that the Realms needs PC heroes as well; because Elminster can't be everywhere. Going against the notion that the Realms has soo many Chosen who can solve any crisis that PCs aren't needed.
(Also, Sylune is used very well in the series, and I quite enjoy her as she doesn't get the chance to shine very often)
The first book has some epic fights in it, and is among my favorite of all Ed's books. I'd recommend trying the first book and seeing if you enjoy it or not. And the books don't contradict eachother.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 17:44:44
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| yeah, from the standpoint of there's too many villains out there for the chosen to police the realms properly, this shows it. The PC's can definitely carve their own spot. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:25:02
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I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Hated it.
Agreed, I had to force myself to finish it. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 17:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them.
I wasn't a fan of the series, but I'm also not a fan of Ed's Realms fiction, in general. It just doesn't work for me.
That said, a lot of people like his fiction, and I find that I am often in the minority on some Realms fiction.
So I encourage people to read the books and judge for themselves.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, from the standpoint of there's too many villains out there for the chosen to police the realms properly, this shows it. The PC's can definitely carve their own spot.
Maybe it's lack of knowledge, but I never assumed that the Chosen could solve everything. I always there were usually overworked on those projects they did deal with and had to be selective at that. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:19:35
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I hated the writing and the uber-plot of the Avatar series, but quite liked the Shadows of the Avatar books. Down to earth and better written by far than the Avatar trilogy.
So, YMMV, definitely. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:21:17
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Agreed. I loved those books, the first one in particular. (I reread it from time to time.)
BB |
Edited by - Blueblade on 10 Oct 2012 18:21:46 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Agreed. I loved those books, the first one in particular. (I reread it from time to time.)
BB
That goes the same for me as well. I'm a big fan of the malaugrym, and I loved how Belkram, Itharr, and Sharantyr finally got some well-deserved character development in the books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Oct 2012 02:58:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 06:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them.
I wasn't a fan of the series, but I'm also not a fan of Ed's Realms fiction, in general. It just doesn't work for me.
That said, a lot of people like his fiction, and I find that I am often in the minority on some Realms fiction.
So I encourage people to read the books and judge for themselves.
Minority? You might be surprised.
While I admit that I did like the first four novels in the original Elminster series, I found his other works very disappointing, and some, so excruciating. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 12:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them.
I wasn't a fan of the series, but I'm also not a fan of Ed's Realms fiction, in general. It just doesn't work for me.
That said, a lot of people like his fiction, and I find that I am often in the minority on some Realms fiction.
So I encourage people to read the books and judge for themselves.
Minority? You might be surprised.
While I admit that I did like the first four novels in the original Elminster series, I found his other works very disappointing, and some, so excruciating.
This is kinda why I ask. While I think Elminster in Hell is one of the best FR novels I've read, it all seems to have spiraled downhill from Elminsters Daughter on. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 14:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them.
I wasn't a fan of the series, but I'm also not a fan of Ed's Realms fiction, in general. It just doesn't work for me.
That said, a lot of people like his fiction, and I find that I am often in the minority on some Realms fiction.
So I encourage people to read the books and judge for themselves.
Minority? You might be surprised.
While I admit that I did like the first four novels in the original Elminster series, I found his other works very disappointing, and some, so excruciating.
Yeah, I just can't stand Ed's novels. I do however enjoy his older Realms "non-fiction." |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 15:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm not a big fan either. The 3 main characters beside El are rangers, which is a bit dull, and are not as interesting as you would expect from an Ed novel.
I would recommend to skip them.
I wasn't a fan of the series, but I'm also not a fan of Ed's Realms fiction, in general. It just doesn't work for me.
That said, a lot of people like his fiction, and I find that I am often in the minority on some Realms fiction.
So I encourage people to read the books and judge for themselves.
Minority? You might be surprised.
While I admit that I did like the first four novels in the original Elminster series, I found his other works very disappointing, and some, so excruciating.
It's not just this that puts me in a minority, in regards to various FR novels. Most of Ed's books, I have not been a fan of. I didn't care for anything in the Sembia series. I thought the War of the Spider Queen was a waste of time -- it wasn't until like the fourth book that I felt a stirring of interest, and that stirring of interest soon withered away. I don't understand the appeal of Erevis Cale; for me, the most interesting character in the Erevis Cale trilogy was the fashion-concious slaadi.
So while I am in the majority on a lot of Realms fiction, there are a fair number of popular books and series that I just didn't care for or actively disliked. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 15:52:06
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DEFINITELY a minority, Dennis. Ed's books are, after all, international bestsellers. Not all that far behind Bob's, once you count in all of the forty-some different language editions and hundreds of countries they've been sold in.
Fantasy fiction, like humour, is very individual. Tastes differ sharply and widely from reader to reader. Yet it's almost always a mistake to equate personal preferences for any objective standard of "quality." Wooly's approach is the right one: 'they don't work for me.' (NOT "they suck.")
Ed does not consider himself a good fiction writer. I consider him "very good, and much better than the average" in fantasy writing - - and I read a LOT of fantasy books (well over a thousand a year). However, that's just my judgment.
I think Ed's most recent trilogy is among his best writing. Some readers hate what happens in those books, but that's a different thing from saying the books themselves are bad.
phranctoast, the Shadows of the Avatar books were written at the request of Brian Thomsen, then head of TSR's book publishing, to explain why Elminster and the other Chosen (and for that matter the Malaugrym) didn't play a more public part in the events of the Avatar series - - in other words, what they were busy doing during that time. (In comic book terms, it was the old question of "Well if Spidey has to fight this cosmic foe alone, what the heck were the FF and the Avengers doing right then? Why didn't THEY show up?")
I think it does that, in a deliberately oblique way rather than a "here's what's going on behind the scenes in the original Avatar books." Or to put it another way, it doesn't second guess the writers and plots of the original, but tells an entirely different story of what Elminster and Co. were busy doing as the Time of Troubles unfolded.
Yes, they're worth reading. No, you need not read them to fully "get" the Avatar events. No, they don't contradict each other. Events in the original Avatar books do unfold without Elminster, and they explain why.
love,
THO |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 16:07:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<snip> Some readers hate what happens in those books, but that's a different thing from saying the books themselves are bad.
THO, this caught me as a very important point and it's exactly how I feel about most of the recent Realms novels: I really love certain authors and think their novels have been excellent, but I absolutely do not like what the outcome has meant for the gaming side.
Ed's books aren't so much this way for me. I've always enjoyed Ed, and my overall impression is that he's doing his utmost to fix all the damage that's been done (again, gaming side). Lisa Smedman is another author I love, and I very much enjoyed Lady Penitent - but hated that it (for all intents and purposes) killed off the drow pantheon except for Lolth. The recent series with Farideh as a demon-pact warlock is also wonderfully written, but in game terms it makes demon pacts no worse than choosing apple pie over cherry pie.
Because of things like this, I no longer use the Realms for gaming. I still like reading books by good Realms authors, but I'm getting to the point where the things I don't personally like are really starting to drive me away from those authors.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 16:47:26
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| I love them, in part, for giving us one of our best looks at the Dales -- ironic as it is that it took an adjunct to the bloody Avatar series to do it, and that Ed was asked to write one before properly establishing his own characters. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 20:19:10
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quote:
phranctoast, the Shadows of the Avatar books were written at the request of Brian Thomsen, then head of TSR's book publishing, to explain why Elminster and the other Chosen (and for that matter the Malaugrym) didn't play a more public part in the events of the Avatar series
OK. Sold. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
Edited by - phranctoast on 12 Oct 2012 20:20:35 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 02:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Minority? You might be surprised.
While I admit that I did like the first four novels in the original Elminster series, I found his other works very disappointing, and some, so excruciating.
Yeah, I just can't stand Ed's novels. I do however enjoy his older Realms "non-fiction."
I think he's at his best when he writes non-fiction. Maybe it gives him more 'freedom.'
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<snip> Some readers hate what happens in those books, but that's a different thing from saying the books themselves are bad.
At times true, other times, not necessarily---because, as Tezzeret once said, truth is often malleable.
For instance, I disliked some of the events in Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, Raymond E. Feist's Serpentwar Saga, and Richard Lee Byers' The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy, yet I still think those books are excellent. It's just not the case with some of Ed's fiction. Elminster Must Die, for example, is simply so bad, so is Shadows of Doom. For me, of course. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Oct 2012 02:05:31 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 02:57:32
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I thought the trilogy was pretty good. I enjoyed the Rangers Three as well as the malugrum (sp)
As far as Ed's writing style. I like it but I need to be in a mood to really follow what is going on. His books are... busy and lore filled and I want/ need to be able to pay close attention.
His current trilogy is pretty good, but if the group went back to the palace one more danged time I promised myself the book would fly across the room |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 03:40:30
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| They did spend alot of time running around. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 13 Oct 2012 03:43:56 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 04:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
- - and I read a LOT of fantasy books (well over a thousand a year)
How do you read at least 3 books a day?? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 05:29:00
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With someone like Ed Greenwood, I wish it was as simple as saying I don't like his novels. Overall, I really dislike stories that are little snippets of tale featuring numbers of different characters, ranging from so minor we never see them again to the novel's namesake, that form the plot either directly connected to the actual storyline or only very loosely related. I tend to prefer stories to be much more linear, or with pretty clear separations between flashbacks, POV shifts, and whatever other literary devices an author might use to break up the "our heroes went to the city. The they killed some bad guys. Then they celebrated cos they won. Then they got drunk, someone robbed them, and they spent the rest of the novel tracking the new bad guys down. While they did that, other stuff happened, then they won, the end."
And all that can get thrown out the window, because i liked Elminster in Hell. I've probably enjoyed as many Ed novels as I've disliked, or at least warmed up to them enough to finish. Haven't read the shadows of the avatar trilogy, although I did just finish the non-Elminster avatar series (and aside from Mr Lowder's contribution, really didn't like it at all). But every time I start a new one, it feels like a chore to get into the more freely formed construct of the plot.
After a while, I don't even know what my opinion is anymore, but for what it's worth I do seem to keep reading...and I'm operating under the understanding that this is purely regarding fiction, because for lore (lol, non-fiction...how does...exist...it's all fictional. Non-novel?) obviously that doesn't even count. Isn't his word canon, and like or dislike is irrelevant. It just IS? |
Edited by - Yoss on 13 Oct 2012 05:32:01 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1271 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 02:06:02
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The only books of Ed's I have a major problem with were the Swords of "x" books after Swords of Eveningstar. Because to me, the stories of the Knights of Myth Drannor are fascinating and something I want to know so much more about. But they really fell apart after the first book, the writing was so hard to follow and I didn't like hearing about all the War Wizards and Zhent wizards...I wanted more Knights!
I wish Ed would go back to that group and take another shot at writing how they got from Cormyr to Shadowdale and events therein.
Thanks for your input THO! I agree with what you said completely. |
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Avatar series and Shadows of the Avatar series.
