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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 17:25:09
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I got this idea for a cool sidestory, but I need some advise.
What if a adventurer party storms a giant lair, clear it, and during the looting they quickly discover a loudly crying infant giant. Considering the party is good, how would they go about caring for a medium sized baby that happens to have a str score of 16+?
At what age would a giant baby be considered a toddler (capable of eating solid food instead of milk)? How much food does a giant baby need?
Have there been examples of (hill) giants that have been 'civilized' by being reared by (demi-)human parents?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 18:10:38
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Well crawling about age one year, might still be nursing though.
Increase by 8 what a human child would need to eat I would think. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:49:23
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Do you watch China, IL.?
Just wondering because they just had a 'giant baby' episode. There is also a giant baby (child, actually) in the psuedo-canonical* adventure Egg of the Phoenix, so you should check it out. PCs are faced with the dilemma of what to do when encountering the child.
*I say "psuedo-canonical" because, even though the module is technically set in Greyhawk, the outcome of the module lands us squarely in The North (several characters are exiled, and wind up in FR). Thus, their very existence (in FR canon) sort of makes that entire adventure canon for FR by default. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2012 18:05:35 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 21:12:34
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No, there was some giant talk over at the wizards site which got me pondering. Giants children are likely to take a little more time and effort to raise, even for the giants themselves they can be quite the handful.
I always liked the way the old monstrous manuals described the composition of a giant community, and often mentioned the amount of children present at a giant camp (aswell as the elderly). But most gloss over the amount of babies, toddlers and other 'cute' age monsters (probably to avoid bad publicity with tales of gamers killing children).
Anyways, hill giant babies needing about 8 times the amount of what a human one needs sounds about right. Perhaps even double or more, because of the races' knack for gluttony. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 09:57:54
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That´s the problem with good aligned chars, they always have to think of the children  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:35:23
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The difference in food consumption between humans and giants is probably exponential, relative to age. The older a giant gets, the bigger that difference becomes.
Verbeeg giants tend to be scrawnier (think methed-out rock stars). Mountain giants and frost giants tend to me lean, but muscular (body-builders or fitness-product-hawking celebrities). Hill giants tend to be fat (move over Mirt!). A verbeeg baby would probably be easier to raise; mountain giants and frost giants would require lots of hunting; and a hill giant baby would probably need lots of milk, creams, oils, sauces, broths, cheeses, etc. Other than raw milk, the latter diet requires lots of processing, so it would likely be the most demanding of all.
A big ape might seem like the best analogy at first, but let's use elephants as a comparison, because of the magnitude of size.
An adult elephant eats 300-600 lb (150-300 kg) of food per day, but the real kicker is that it needs 15-30 gal (60-120 l) of fresh water. Water weighs approximately 2 lb/qt (1kg/l), so carrying that kind of load around daily would be very difficult; you'd probably want to have access to running fresh water sources.
A baby elephant is entirely dependent upon its mother's milk for the first two years, and then continues to supplement its diet with her milk for several more years afterward.
Whether a giant is born evil, or only becomes raised that way (nature vs. nurture), is a question that Bob has raised with the drow several times, too. I don't know if that's been decisively answered in Realmslore, yet. Of course, there are always the exceptional specimens, of any species.
In the novel The Silent Blade, Regis used his hypnotic ruby pendant to sway a mountain giant to help the Companions, but even inside of an antimagic box, the Crystal Shard still countered Regis's magic and turned the giant against them. Part of this may be attributed to the Shard being a very powerful artifact. But part of it might be due to a giant simply being inherently, willingly, decidedly evil.
This campaign idea reminds me a little of the Thayan Lady Sylora adventuring with the deranged elf-lich Valindra in Bob's "The Neverwinter Saga" books. The whole time, Sylora was hoping to see Valindra restored back to health, but also dreading the possibility of Valindra doing something crazy and stupid--which for an elf-lich, could be highly disastrous for all.
Your party may be trying to do the right thing, but they might just be sitting on a ticking time bomb, if you know what I mean . . . |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 18:17:06
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My giants (even when I run FR) are very different then standard D&D giants. All giants are male.
Hags are the females of the giantish race (and can change size at-will, once per day, one size category). When a hag (with a glamour/illusion on it) mates with a human, we get ogres (Hagspawn). When they mate with true giants, we get 'baby giants' when male, and young hags (skogsrå) when female. They keep the females, but the males they give to a giant clan after the first two years to raise - they become hill giants.
My giants can then specialize using templates, most of which are elemental in nature. Ones that don't specialize become Mountain Giants. PC might encounter a young (3 year old) giant in a lair, but they would just think it was a smallish Hill giant. My assumption is that while with the hags, they grow very rapidly (females grow at a more normal rate).
Anyhow, thats how I perceive giants working - I don't really bother with all the sub-races, as such. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2012 18:26:28 |
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xedrick
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 16:24:09
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Off topic, but when I read the title of this thread, I expected to see moaning about childish players.
=P |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 03:00:04
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I think BEAST gave some really good advice. I don't really see how a band of adventurers would be able to adequately care for an infant giant, especially as it begins to get older. It's not necessarily impossible, it's just really difficult and likely would not end very well either for the giant or the adventurers.
A more likely and realistic outcome is to hand the infant over to some affiliated or trusted group - such as the clergy of Ilmater or Selune - to tend for the child. Ideally the child would grow up in a more rural setting because as a giant gets larger he can cause a lot of problems within a more urban setting which would likely result in him being executed or exiled.
There is also the complicated fact that the party killed the parents of this child. Based upon how many adopted children have an interest in learning about their birth parents, one could assume the possibility that the giant would become curious about his birth parents as well. The chances of this may be elevated by the fact that it will quickly become apparent that he is of a different race than those around him. This would likely result in him feeling like an outsider growing up - it's almost inevitable. We see this in humans all the time who are different from those around them, and there is no reason to believe that someone who is biologically different wouldn't feel the same way.
But BEAST brought up the ever important nature vs nurture argument when it comes to being evil. I don't think there is any definitive canon 'Yes' or 'No' on this question, it's highly ambiguous. There are also certainly exceptions to every 'rule' and this giant could always be one of those exceptions. So you can cut either way with this.
In my Realms, I side step this entirely by pointing out that monstrous races aren't human. They don't necessarily think like humans think. Most of the obvious examples of 'evil' races such as Goblins and Orcs simply lack the ability to feel empathy. By human standards they are psychopaths. The culture and societies that develop around them are a direct result of their psychopathic nature. It forces them to work together as a group when their natural inclinations are inherently self-centered.
Have you ever been around very young toddlers? I can't imagine how horrific it would be raising a giant toddler. I remember when my nephews were that young, before they understood concepts like, 'You shouldn't hurt other people.' They'd do something like pull the tail of the dog, or throw something at him, and when the dog yelped in pain they'd find it funny. Some toddlers go through phases like biting other people.
You have an infant child who is currently as tall / large as an adult human male, and is as strong as a light warhorse. That's necessary for perspective. As the child becomes a toddler it's going to become stronger - perhaps as strong as a heavy warhorse.
In all honesty, I can't imagine any good outcome coming from this - even if all the stars aligned in the players favor. It would have to, in my opinion, simply be a GM fiat that things go swimmingly with no complications. The only situation that I can imagine being most favorable to raising a giant child would be somewhere very remote, surrounded by a bunch of very understanding priests of Ilmater. They would have to know exactly what they were getting into as well.
I try to picture in my head a giant being raised in a village of humans. The Giant may make it through infancy. Though I do imagine some trouble along the way.
For example, I could imagine for most humans a diaper change could potentially be a death trap. If you've ever changed an infant child you know that they like to squirm a bit - kicking their feet, flailing with their arms. It's all part of normal infant development. However, this child is as strong as a horse and is large as an adult human male. Someone is trying to change his cloth diaper, and suddenly he's kicked in the head. Accidentally. Maybe he suffers a concussion. Maybe he's knocked unconscious. Maybe his neck gets snapped or his jaw gets broken. He's basically just been kicked in the face by a warhorse. That's just completely by accident with no ill intentions.
I'd imagine that sooner or later they'd wise up though, and likely tie baby's legs and arms down to the ground - which likely wouldn't make him very happy. They might have to use chains to do it, as well, considering he might be able to snap ropes unless they were really thick.
All of that just for a diaper change. Which, as anyone whose been around infants know, happens multiple times per day.
Now imagine this child as a toddler. He has no real understanding of right or wrong behavior as of yet. He doesn't even understand the concept of what it means to hurt someone else. This is just assuming that he's like a standard human infant.
Imagine him being raised in a village and playing with another kid his age or slightly older. He could easily and unintentionally kill that other kid due to his strength and size. The same is true for pets and livestock.
One minute Baby Giant is playing so sweetly with Little Jimmy. You turn your back for a brief moment, you hear a loud thud and suddenly you hear Baby Giant crying. He's holding the mangled remains of Little Jimmy in his hands, after having bashed him against the rocks, and Baby Giant just can't figure out why Little Jimmy doesn't want to play with him anymore so he's very upset. Explain that to the local townsfolk.
Imagine as he gets a bit older and the type of tantrums he could throw. He wants your shinny glowing sword to play with, but obviously you can't give a child a sharp pointy sword to play with. So Baby Giant is now very angry and has decided to throw a tantrum. As he does so, he accidentally kills or cripples a couple of your horses. Or worse, he actually kills or cripples another human.
How do you comfort or discipline a child who is not only bigger than you but vastly stronger than you? Do you subdue him first?
These are just some of the most obvious problems that immediately jump to my mind in raising an infant giant child, and these are assuming that giant psychology is identical or very similar to human psychology.
I don't imagine things going very well at all. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 03:08:16
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Just to add to the above, I think if someone can cast permanency and reduce person on the giant, then a lot of the worst effects could be avoided. (It could then be countered when he became an adult by casting permanency and enlarge person on him.)
He'd still be bigger and stronger than any human child, but he'd also be much more controllable and less dangerous.
I'd say once reduced as an infant he'd be 3 feet long, and weigh roughly 16 pounds. I'd also fudge his strength. Instead of being reduced to 14, I'd figure out what a human infants strength would be and give the giant +2 to that. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 01 Oct 2012 03:16:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 06:03:27
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| Or you could just give it to a clan of vampires so they will leave the village alone. That should hold them for a while. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Tending for giant babies
