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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 04:21:42
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Is there a proper name for Trobriand's brand of spellcraft? Metal Magic? Metallurgy? Is it a sub-school of Transmutation? The little information we have about him is primarily found in The Ruins of Undermountain. And in p. 108, it states: Trobriand has a great mastery over metal, rivaling that of the long-dead archwizards of Myth Drannor... Since it looks like the practice of crafting specific spells with and in metals go as far back as the time of fallen Myth Drannor, and thus is not entirely 'new,' surely someone must have made a proper name for such 'art'?
Also, why is this brand of magic not so well-known or practiced by many wizards in Faerun? Trobriand himself sells some of his metal guardians to mages, creatures of the Realms Below, and all sorts of people from Skullport, Calimshan, and Lantan. Surely some of those mages must have endeavored to replicate the metal constructs and delve deeper into 'metal magic'? And given the abundance of metals in Toril, wizards should have already found other arcane uses of metals other than for storing spells?
My guess is that exploring greatly on metals smacks heavily of technology. We all know that the Realms is engineered to be as low-tech as possible, so...
What say you fellow scribes?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 05:03:35
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| In my mind, it's less likely a new form of magic, and more likely just taking existing magic a little further than others do. Scaladar may be more advanced than other constructs, but they are still constructs. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 06:13:51
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| Perhaps its also due to resources. Making metallic contructs or focusing on metal relaed spells, a mage would need access to sufficient funds to create new spells and certain metals are expensive for certain golems. Paying the xp(life force) would also be staggering over time. Plus conventional spellcasting not to mention other schools of magic are filled with sub schools of their own and Trobriand focuses on the metallic arcane arts he may not be as skilled in other aspects of the arcane. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 06:18:53
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Pretty much.
And if I'm properly recalling Trobriand's original write-up in Ruins of Undermountain... it suggests that the mage's mastery over metal rivals that of the long dead archwizards of Myth Drannor. To my knowledge, those archwizards weren't described as having command of any particularly specialised magical school for working with metal, so I'd say it's more likely that Trobriand's mastery is merely a self-discovered deviation of existing schools, with his own thoughts and tinkerings shaping his Art in more personal ways. [Which is also sort of confirmed by the lore, too, as I recall, since he's long known to have been constantly improving on his craft.]
Of course, I won't deny the possibility that Trobriand's workings might not one day lead to a new school, or, perhaps a sub-school of magic. Maybe a sub-school of Transmutation. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 07:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Perhaps its also due to resources. Making metallic contructs or focusing on metal relaed spells, a mage would need access to sufficient funds to create new spells and certain metals are expensive for certain golems.
There are plenty of realms that have abundance of metals. Thay, for instance. Its economy relies heavily on mining. I can see Red Wizards creating arcane uses for those mined metals.
Dwarven magic-users would also be likely to take advantage of Metal Magic*. Not only would advanced metal constructs be good guardians, they can used to mine as well. Efficient, tireless, and precise. Almost perfect slaves.
[*If the lack of reply to my first question suggests that there's really no canon name for Trobriand's spellcraft, then allow me to call it so.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Sep 2012 07:20:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 10:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[*If the lack of reply to my first question suggests that there's really no canon name for Trobriand's spellcraft, then allow me to call it so.]
There isn't a name for his spellcraft because it's not a different type of spellcraft. It's just that he focuses in one area more than others. We don't call Szassy's spellcraft "death magic" even though he focuses more on necromantics than most, because it's not a different type of magic. Ditto for Zalathorm -- he doesn't use "scry magic", he's just focused on divination.
If I had to call Trobriand anything, I'd say he was similar to a Eber-whatsit artificer. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Sep 2012 10:59:52 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 15:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[*If the lack of reply to my first question suggests that there's really no canon name for Trobriand's spellcraft, then allow me to call it so.]
For your own games, and in your own works, of course.
But in terms of the official Realms, Trobriand's magic is largely as Wooly and myself noted earlier. It's likely existing as just a specific focus of an existing school of magic.
Otherwise, I would assume those long-dead archwizards of Myth Drannor would've already studied and categorised such magic... creating an entirely new arcane methodology that would be applicable only for mages working with metal. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 16:48:10
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There is a class that focuses on metal. Its the wu jen. They study "Elemental Mastery of Metal". There is a bit of a reason not many mages focus on metal and constructs, and its primary hindrance is the feat costs (at least in 3.5) and physical costs as well. I don't see Trobriand as a wu jen however.
Ironically, you mention Thay, because one of the things I was proposing for 5E was that a new Thay was formed, but they give a nod to the non-traditional schools as well (the standard 4 elemental schools, metal elementalism, shadow-based magic, "battlemages"aka gish, "theurges", etc..). I mentioned that the metal school could have ties to Trobriand, and I found the below where Thay and Trobriand were coming to some sort of alliance.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ru/20050810a
The Red Wizard, Reven Zhul, has come to Undermountain to form an alliance with Trobriand, the Metal Mage. Trobriand is a powerful spellcaster who has started an academy in the western third of the first level of Undermountain. See City of Splendors: Waterdeep for details about Trobriand. The Red Wizards hope an alliance with Trobriand will give them an easy foothold in Undermountain and thus Waterdeep |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 16:49:03
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A master in the art of transmuting metals could be named a Ferromancer aside from Metal Mage. But its too specific to transcend the transmutation school to become a school in its own right, like geomancy.
A solitary mage without an ample workforce of miners is very limited to studying transmutation of metals, so that could have prevented its widescale application. A typical magic school seldomly has acces to mines, limiting the spread of metal magic to those with a natural affinity to the hard, shiny, malleable, fusable and conductive materials of metals.
Tobriand is one of the more interesting archmages in print, as he understands the multitude of uses he can get from his intense focus on metals. I don't think his love of metals came out of nowhere though. Given his odd appearance and area of operation I don't think his expertise is poised to grow into a well supported new field of study in the Art.
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Druidic Groves
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 18:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
A master in the art of transmuting metals could be named a Ferromancer aside from Metal Mage. But its too specific to transcend the transmutation school to become a school in its own right, like geomancy.
A solitary mage without an ample workforce of miners is very limited to studying transmutation of metals, so that could have prevented its widescale application. A typical magic school seldomly has acces to mines, limiting the spread of metal magic to those with a natural affinity to the hard, shiny, malleable, fusable and conductive materials of metals.
Tobriand is one of the more interesting archmages in print, as he understands the multitude of uses he can get from his intense focus on metals. I don't think his love of metals came out of nowhere though. Given his odd appearance and area of operation I don't think his expertise is poised to grow into a well supported new field of study in the Art.
Bear in mind that the study of metal magics isn't just about building things of metal. There's also magnetism. There's also corrosion. There's also reflectiveness. There's also its ability to conduct heat and electricity. They can also focus on enhancing metals to be stronger.
Still, yes, it would be a limited field of study, and probably many who go into the study of the field would also go into the study of the physical combat arts as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 20:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And in p. 108, it states: Trobriand has a great mastery over metal, rivaling that of the long-dead archwizards of Myth Drannor... Since it looks like the practice of crafting specific spells with and in metals go as far back as the time of fallen Myth Drannor, and thus is not entirely 'new,' surely someone must have made a proper name for such 'art'?
Technically, this doesn't suggest common methods, only nods at the elven enchanted fine craft, such as those artificial limbs as comparable achievements.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Also, why is this brand of magic not so well-known or practiced by many wizards in Faerun? Trobriand himself sells some of his metal guardians to mages, creatures of the Realms Below, and all sorts of people from Skullport, Calimshan, and Lantan. Surely some of those mages must have endeavored to replicate the metal constructs and delve deeper into 'metal magic'? And given the abundance of metals in Toril, wizards should have already found other arcane uses of metals other than for storing spells?
Drow artisans do great stuff, and aren't shy of enchantments, but drow already have golems proper - both usual and their own variants (jade spider). Just the same as with pneumatic guns - it's just happened to become two separate niches.
The only other potential followers on Faerun that spring to mind are wizards-craftsmen of Neverwinter - but then, maybe that's what they're trying to do already? Anywhere else, there simply aren't a lot of folk good enough both at mechanics and magic to even begin understanding such work. Lantanese, for example, usually are trying to minimize magical component and rely on mad science as much as possible, not to blend them freely as needed.
Another question is - what magic? Remember that Trobriand already have gone very, very far in his weird craft - and that his teacher was an Imaskari artificier, very talented one at that, who walked his own way for many centuries even before taking those apprentices. Therefore, when someone tries to move toward Trobriand's work and/or reverse-engineer it, but starts only with derivatives of Elven and Netherese lore (like, say, most Faerunian humans), they immediately face a tall vertical wall on the other side of a wide and almost bottomless gap in methodology.  Not that it's truly unreachable, but it's very likely to become infamous as the greatest exercise in frustration around.
Outside of Faerun, though... Clockwork Magic is fairly widespread in Zakhara. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 20:35:50
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I call it 'Golemancy'.
In my HB lore, I call the (Imaskari) school that teaches such things the Academy of Golemic Sciences, and includes everything from self-aware humanoid constructs to machine-like automatons, juggernaughts, and efiigies.
They basically combined the Muhjari knowledge of summonings with the Shou (Anoque) Interloper's skill with Alchemy. Both races had their own brand of Elementalism that eventually formed a hybrid understanding that gave the Imaskari their vast mastery of magic. The school of Golemic sciences was just one such outcome.
Like I said, thats my homebrew version of events - YMMV.
EDIT: and Trobriand was an apprentice (minion? associate?) of Halaster, and as we know Halaster was Imaskari, so everything comes full circle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2012 20:37:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 05:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I call it 'Golemancy'.
Sounds good. But personally, it's also limiting. As sleyvas noted, there's more to metal magic than creating golems.
I'm rather inclined to use Sanderson's term for metal magic: Allomancy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 05:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Therefore, when someone tries to move toward Trobriand's work and/or reverse-engineer it, but starts only with derivatives of Elven and Netherese lore (like, say, most Faerunian humans), they immediately face a tall vertical wall on the other side of a wide and almost bottomless gap in methodology. Not that it's truly unreachable, but it's very likely to become infamous as the greatest exercise in frustration around.
Challenging and probably frustrating, but no wholly impossible. Halaster and Trobriand are not the only long-lived and gifted wizards in Toril, and they're certainly NOT the most gifted either. [I don't even know if there's one who holds such title.]
Anyway, if a realm could hoard an endless supply of chain mails for their armies, why not spare some metals for their mages? There's no scarcity of metals in the Realms. And there are always common people who can be commanded to do the mining. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 05:17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ironically, you mention Thay, because one of the things I was proposing for 5E was that a new Thay was formed, but they give a nod to the non-traditional schools as well (the standard 4 elemental schools, metal elementalism, shadow-based magic, "battlemages"aka gish, "theurges", etc..). I mentioned that the metal school could have ties to Trobriand, and I found the below where Thay and Trobriand were coming to some sort of alliance.
Szass Tam is passionate about Necromancy. But he's also a master of ALL the schools of magic, save perhaps Divination. While his undead servants continue to serve him well, I don't see any reason why he would not be open or abhor the idea of using metal constructs, specially that he has all the resources needed. They're one and the same anyway: mindless and tireless servants. Different in composition, but alike in purpose. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 07:45:41
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I call my 5th element 'Alloy', which encompasses 'wood' and 'metal' from other non-traditional schools. Its basically the mixing of the four basic elements in precise proportions to create the 5th element- Life. Ergo, the ultimate achievement of a 'metal mage' is the creation of life itself - the Homunculus. Golemancy goes beyond golems - its the crafting of basic elements into things with a semblance of life (automata), and also creating such devices with the spark of life itself.
I figure Golemancy is a more permanent out-growth of summoning elementals. The primary problem with keeping elementals around is that their 'form' is derived from material at hand, and is therefor unstable. You summon the elemental spirit, which inhabits that temporary housing. By crafting a permanent form for the elemental spirit, you can bind it to that form and make it permanent (a golem). D&D Golems don't necessarily have to look human - quite a few don't - the idea is that any type of magical 'machine' is possible using Golemics.
The true 'science' comes in by how complicated you make the form - the most advanced versions - the effigies - are fully articulated and capable of many things. The Effigy Master class originated in Imaskar, and later survived through the Gnomes of Songfarla.
Yes... I have it where Tinker Gnomes actually started out on Toril. They were Zakharan gnomes that were literally 'tinkers', and took to the Imaskari methods and excelled at it. Ao shifted Mount Nevermind to Krynn when the Godwar broke out, but the strain from that was too much for the little buggers, and they were never quite right after that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2012 17:43:22 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2446 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:28:40
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Also, someone makes things like Iron Cobra, Clockwork Swordsman, etc. And there are Clockwork Horrors out in Wildspace. So not quite unique field of study, though they all are different enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Therefore, when someone tries to move toward Trobriand's work and/or reverse-engineer it, but starts only with derivatives of Elven and Netherese lore (like, say, most Faerunian humans), they immediately face a tall vertical wall on the other side of a wide and almost bottomless gap in methodology. Not that it's truly unreachable, but it's very likely to become infamous as the greatest exercise in frustration around.
Challenging and probably frustrating, but no wholly impossible. Halaster and Trobriand are not the only long-lived and gifted wizards in Toril, and they're certainly NOT the most gifted either. [I don't even know if there's one who holds such title.]
And how long it would take someone else to retrace their steps without knowing where they started and facing only a very advanced product, not basics?
The problem is: it's on top of being already good enough in two areas that rarely intersect much, and dedication to such matters.
Those who collect more of such lore are more likely to hear about Zakharan tradition and learn it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes... I have it where Tinker Gnomes actually started out on Toril. They were Zakharan gnomes that were literally 'tinkers', and took to the Imaskari methods and excelled at it.
No can do - it's Zakhara.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ao shifted Mount Nevermind to Krynn when the Godwar broke out, but the strain from that was too much for the little buggers, and they were never quite right after that.
You already abandoned your theory that he was senile by this time and did it by mistake - "put it in a wrong pocket"? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11894 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ironically, you mention Thay, because one of the things I was proposing for 5E was that a new Thay was formed, but they give a nod to the non-traditional schools as well (the standard 4 elemental schools, metal elementalism, shadow-based magic, "battlemages"aka gish, "theurges", etc..). I mentioned that the metal school could have ties to Trobriand, and I found the below where Thay and Trobriand were coming to some sort of alliance.
Szass Tam is passionate about Necromancy. But he's also a master of ALL the schools of magic, save perhaps Divination. While his undead servants continue to serve him well, I don't see any reason why he would not be open or abhor the idea of using metal constructs, specially that he has all the resources needed. They're one and the same anyway: mindless and tireless servants. Different in composition, but alike in purpose.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am SO sick of people making that quote that Szass Tam is a master of ALL schools of magic. The man had 2 opposition schools in every edition that he was ever published where specialization was found. Hell, they even wrote a short story focused on the fact that the man didn't really understand or give much credence to illusion. He's a powerful necromancer and a lich, but he's not a master of all magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 02:04:50
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If you are unfamiliar with it, I would suggest you read Faith Hunter's Seraphs series. It featured several specialized classes of mages, including metal mages. They were even broken down into even more specialized classes such as gold or steel-mages. A VERY good trilogy slated for an RPG (if it isn't already).
Rogue Mage |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Sep 2012 02:16:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 03:37:52
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Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not a fan of urban fantasy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 03:45:45
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| I'm usually not either. Your loss, I suppose. If I were you, if I saw it at the thrift or the library I'd grab it. You might be pleasantly surprised. Especially if you like Christian mythology. A lot of good angelic lore. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Sep 2012 03:47:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 04:11:26
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Nah. My To-Read stacks are now at a towering height. Besides, Christian myth isn't my area of interest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:55:21
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@TBeholder - Zakhara has gnomes - it has all the standard fantasy (PC) races. That setting just plays them down (everyone is just like funny looking humans).
I imagine the Muhjari people being an amalgam of the Zakharan refugees (from the Scattering of Fate), and the Mar people - Indianesque peoples who crossed the mountains millenia earlier during their own exodus. As the Zakharans moved up and through the mar-occupied Utter East, they formed the new group - the Muhjari.
Within the Muhjari group - that first migrated north into the shining waters region and then into the Taan/Raurin basin - were clusters of demi-humans that got scattered along with the rest. I picture Zakharan gnomes being the travel-about tinkers of Zakharan society (back in the day), and the ones that settled north of the Utter East learned the ways of the people around them (as most 'small folk' do). The traditional magic of northern gnomes is illusion, but southern gnomes took to mechanical aspects of Imaskari society and excelled at it.
Thats just my take. It doesn't disagree with any canon, but it is NOT canon, its homebrew. YMMV
@Dennis - I a "not a fan" of lots of stuff, but I find that every once in awhile, when I am in a situation where I have nothing else to read, I find myself pleasantly surprised by how good other genre novels can be. I consider myself a fantasy/scify guy, but I don't limit myself to that (although I once did). My most recent self-indulgence have been Clive Cussler novels (the Dirk Pitt books in particular). 'Urban fantasy' falls well outside my norm as well, but some of them are excellent, and you should try a few - you might enjoy them... or not. Life's about trying new things.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2012 18:02:53 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2446 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 18:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@TBeholder - Zakhara has gnomes - it has all the standard fantasy (PC) races. That setting just plays them down (everyone is just like funny looking humans).[...] I picture Zakharan gnomes being the travel-about tinkers of Zakharan society (back in the day), and the ones that settled north of the Utter East learned the ways of the people around them (as most 'small folk' do). The traditional magic of northern gnomes is illusion, but southern gnomes took to mechanical aspects
But that's kind of the whole point about Al-Qadim. They aren't gnomes/elves/orcs in space! who live on Zakhara, but the Enlightened who are gnomes/elves/orcs. So that they see it almost exclusively in terms of natural advantages/disadvantages. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 18:54:19
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I don't put them in space.
My Homebrew Lore:
Mount Nevermind was originally in Imaskar, in the Raurin Basin, and part of the mountain chain (Raurin Alta) just below Semphar. It was where the displaced Zakharan gnomes wound-up as they migrated north. The ones left in Zakhara would still be your standard zakharan gnomes (and like I said, I think wanderers' amongst them would make great tinkers). Its original name was 'Nevra-Mind' (literally, 'brilliant mind' in Roushoum).
This mountain held one of the foremost schools in Golemancy, and the gnomes there achieved miraculous things. When the godwar broke-out between the Imaskari and the Mulan deities, the entire mountain was shifted to another world. Many say Ao did it, but the truth is unknown... it may have even been some highly advanced version of Imaskari planer-travel magic performed by the gnomes themselves.
The remainder of the Imaskari tinker-gnomes fled war-torn Imaskar and headed into the foothills to the northwest, and founded Songfarla (where they were later joined by Netherese gnomish refugees). Unlike their Krynnish counterparts, the gnomes of Songfarla are true geniuses, and have mastered the arts of Effigy crafting. It is these devices that have managed to keep them safe, despite their being wedged between the Tuigan and the Red Wizards. Most Faerūnians would be amazed to find out that many of the dragons in the Unapproachable East and Tann region are actual constructs (along with dozens of other types of powerful 'monsters', which keeps intruders from penetrating too deep into gnomish lands).
Another group of gnomes fled Imaskar to Lantan (where Imaskar had a small colony) due to religious differences. These gnomes worshiped Goibne - an aspect of the dwarvish Moradin (whom the Mujhari called Zionil), and believed that all such magic came from divine inspiration from Goibne. This name would change over time to Gond (the Wonderbringer), who's faith would spread throughout Faerūn. Northern Gnomes - in other parts of Faerūn - combined Goibne with a human deity known as Būlannn, and became known as Goibne-Būlann, eventually just shortened to 'Nebulin'.
Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2012 18:58:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 02:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Urban fantasy' falls well outside my norm as well, but some of them are excellent, and you should try a few - you might enjoy them... or not. Life's about trying new things.
Meh. I may make some exceptions, but I always know what I'm looking for in a book, and what would undoubtedly frustrate me. Christian myth bores me almost as much as Greek myth. And the fact that the heroine in that book that Fellfire recommended goes horny like a horse when near a seraph sounds ridiculous. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 04:19:56
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Had Khelen also dabbled in metal magic? If he could make and control 90-foot stone golems, why not metal constructs?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am SO sick of people making that quote that Szass Tam is a master of ALL schools of magic. The man had 2 opposition schools in every edition that he was ever published where specialization was found. Hell, they even wrote a short story focused on the fact that the man didn't really understand or give much credence to illusion. He's a powerful necromancer and a lich, but he's not a master of all magic.
Well, Dmitra Flass would disagree with you. She had been with Szass Tam for a considerably long time, and had known him quite well. Here's what she said to Malark on page 49 of Undead:
quote:
He shrugged. "My agents can't see any indication that Szass Tam knows we're creeping up on him, and the diviners say they can't, either. Since I don't practice their mysteries, I've little choice but to defer to their expertise. I imagine their opinion is reliable. After all, we have the entire Order of Illusion working in concert to do what you do best."
"You're right," she said, "that should suffice, but you don't know Szass Tam like I do. He's a genius, and a master of every school of wizardry. So can we really hide whole armies from him, or was that Rashemi griffon rider correct? Is this a feckless plan?"
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 07:03:45
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Considering that Trobriand is now more metal than man, can it be said that he is similar to So-Kehur in Unholy?
So-Kehur became essentially a brain in a metal body, with necromancy keeping him "alive" and conscious... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 18:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Khelen also dabbled in metal magic? If he could make and control 90-foot stone golems, why not metal constructs?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am SO sick of people making that quote that Szass Tam is a master of ALL schools of magic. The man had 2 opposition schools in every edition that he was ever published where specialization was found. Hell, they even wrote a short story focused on the fact that the man didn't really understand or give much credence to illusion. He's a powerful necromancer and a lich, but he's not a master of all magic.
Well, Dmitra Flass would disagree with you. She had been with Szass Tam for a considerably long time, and had known him quite well. Here's what she said to Malark on page 49 of Undead:
quote:
He shrugged. "My agents can't see any indication that Szass Tam knows we're creeping up on him, and the diviners say they can't, either. Since I don't practice their mysteries, I've little choice but to defer to their expertise. I imagine their opinion is reliable. After all, we have the entire Order of Illusion working in concert to do what you do best."
"You're right," she said, "that should suffice, but you don't know Szass Tam like I do. He's a genius, and a master of every school of wizardry. So can we really hide whole armies from him, or was that Rashemi griffon rider correct? Is this a feckless plan?"
I know the quote. I've also seen all the stat blocks. Basically, people make too much of a quote by some moderately powerful tharchioness. He may understand the concepts of those other schools of magic (as he got his comeuppance from Leira in the short story "red ambition" to make him not disdain illusion).
Note: in the below from the epic level handbook, this was written with 3E rules in mind, not 3.5, and in those, necromancers only had to take 1 opposition school, so the second is the one he had to take to be a red wizard. He'd actually have a 3rd according to 3.5 rules. Granted, there are feats he could use to circumvent that, but it'd take 9 feats to do so (3 per school).
Wizard Spells Per Day: 5/7/7/6/6/6/6/3/5/5/1/1; base
DC 18 + spell level, 20 + spell level for Evocation, 31 +
spell level for Necromancy. Caster level 29th. Specialized
school: Necromancy. Prohibited Schools: Enchantment,
illusion.
Spellbook: As a very old lich, a powerful wizard, and one
of the rulers of a nation of wizards, Szass Tarn has access
to virtually any spell that is known and has created many
unique necromancy spells known only to himself or the
other Red Wizards. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 21:58:38
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It wasn't just Dmitra who thought so. The other zulkirs as well, even Nevron. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 11:02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It wasn't just Dmitra who thought so. The other zulkirs as well, even Nevron.
What characters think in a novel does not necessarily reflect the reality of the setting where the novel takes place.
Under D&D rules, being specialized in all schools of magic simply cannot be done. And that's not even what that bit says -- it just says "master," which likely indicates that he's past a certain skill level. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Oct 2012 11:03:55 |
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Trobriand's Brand of Magic
