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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 23:47:03
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And I don't understand why it has to be such a big deal at all. All the old eladrin (with all the crazy powerful abilities) are or can still be around. The definition is just broadened.
Ultimately, here's how it is. Much as I'm not going to side against the 4e designers, I'm not going to be their apologist. I wasn't at the table--I don't know the decisions that were made, the advice that was advanced and taken/ignored. All I can do is stitch together seemingly discordant things.
Yes, eladrin are different from what they were before, but I think a lot of that difference is illusory, semantic, or a matter of opinion. I wouldn't have done what they did, but I can understand why they did it, and I'm not *offended* by it. (I love the Realms as much as anyone, but I don't take *offense* at design I disagree with.)
Honestly, it is what it is. I've tried to make it palatable, understandable, or even likable, but if you are still *offended* by it, then maybe I can't help you. I'd love to keep talking about it, but if you're not interested in doing so, then we're at an impasse.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 02:13:51
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| They are what They have always been. Though some have been touched by the Feywild that occurred during the Spellplague. This was something I constantly had to remind Players of when choosing to be an elf. I would always ask what type they were Sun/Gold, Moon/Silver, Wild/Green, Wood/Cooper. That would always reflect on how I designed the games around the Player Characters and what they might know or feel accustomed too. This also provided Players with away of constructing a Background story of Where they might be from and Why they are adventuring. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 08:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I don't understand why it has to be such a big deal at all. All the old eladrin (with all the crazy powerful abilities) are or can still be around. The definition is just broadened.
Ultimately, here's how it is. Much as I'm not going to side against the 4e designers, I'm not going to be their apologist. I wasn't at the table--I don't know the decisions that were made, the advice that was advanced and taken/ignored. All I can do is stitch together seemingly discordant things.
Yes, eladrin are different from what they were before, but I think a lot of that difference is illusory, semantic, or a matter of opinion. I wouldn't have done what they did, but I can understand why they did it, and I'm not *offended* by it. (I love the Realms as much as anyone, but I don't take *offense* at design I disagree with.)
Honestly, it is what it is. I've tried to make it palatable, understandable, or even likable, but if you are still *offended* by it, then maybe I can't help you. I'd love to keep talking about it, but if you're not interested in doing so, then we're at an impasse.
Cheers
Erik, I respect you a ton and I will always enjoy reading your material. I say this because I don't want to come across as piling on. But I think what Razz's sentiment boils down to is that we all know that 4E was designed in a way akin to shaving off the corners of the square peg so that it fit into the round whole. To be fair to the designers, they have for the most part come out and admitted that they went about things in not the best way. So we as fans have to recognize that and appreciate it. You rarely get that in the creative world.
But why this particular subject matters to the fans....at least to me any ways....and maybe Razz based on his words. Is that I find it a little more difficult taking some novels seriously when there is subject matter based on suspect lore. It took me a while to get used to the fact that there were Dragonborn in the Realms or that the Genasi were completely different than they were before. But those mechanics at least had a reasonable explanation for being there...and there has been some great fiction written about them. I have never really bought into the idea of 4E Realms Eladrin and I don't think I ever will. FR Elves were great as they were and the Eladrin was never necessary from a literary or design standpoint.
BTW, I am loving Eye of Justice. But the all the secrets and intrigue are driving me crazy!  |
Edited by - Caolin on 20 Sep 2012 08:09:55 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 16:27:13
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Elves are elves folks, why is this so difficult?
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 16:54:22
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I completely understand where you're coming from, Caolin. And as I said before, I'm not going to defend the sometimes odd design decisions going into 4e. I'm just trying to present a way to get past it (i.e. let's just forget the word "eladrin" and think of them as elves, because that's what they are).
If we could just move on (as Althen Artren puts it), it would be far better. As I've said, 5e elves are in all likelihood just going to be elves.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 18:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I completely understand where you're coming from, Caolin. And as I said before, I'm not going to defend the sometimes odd design decisions going into 4e. I'm just trying to present a way to get past it (i.e. let's just forget the word "eladrin" and think of them as elves, because that's what they are).
If we could just move on (as Althen Artren puts it), it would be far better. As I've said, 5e elves are in all likelihood just going to be elves.
Cheers
No I understand, I really do. It's just we were asked by WoTC to make our voices heard in the forums. So I wanted to make sure my position on the subject matter was clearly spelled out. I feel that I have done that and I am now moving on.
Cheers! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 20:03:44
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Fair enough. I don't want to get in the way of anyone expressing feedback.
My intention here was only to provide some stitching. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 20:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I don't understand why it has to be such a big deal at all. All the old eladrin (with all the crazy powerful abilities) are or can still be around. The definition is just broadened.
Ultimately, here's how it is. Much as I'm not going to side against the 4e designers, I'm not going to be their apologist. I wasn't at the table--I don't know the decisions that were made, the advice that was advanced and taken/ignored. All I can do is stitch together seemingly discordant things.
Yes, eladrin are different from what they were before, but I think a lot of that difference is illusory, semantic, or a matter of opinion. I wouldn't have done what they did, but I can understand why they did it, and I'm not *offended* by it. (I love the Realms as much as anyone, but I don't take *offense* at design I disagree with.)
Honestly, it is what it is. I've tried to make it palatable, understandable, or even likable, but if you are still *offended* by it, then maybe I can't help you. I'd love to keep talking about it, but if you're not interested in doing so, then we're at an impasse.
Cheers
Good, I'm glad you do understand, because I don't, could you please explain?
No this isn't sarcasim I would actually like to hear your thoughts on the matter. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 23:18:15
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First, there were elves. These were split into two major branches - the rustic, Sylvan (Green) Elves, and the more 'civilized' (city-building) High Elves (our sun, Moon, & Star Elves; all Gray Elves in other settings). These, of course, split into dozens of sub-groups, but our real concern is with that initial split. The thing we know now that we didn't know in earlier editions is that the Fey term for these 'wayward children' was Eladrin (and they chose to follow their own gods, not the fey pantheon).
At some point in time (at least 28,000+ years ago) the High Elves split from the more rustic Elves to build their own civilizations. However, these cities were still considered within Faerie (the plane to which the Fey fled earlier from Toril). One has to assume that at this time, the Sylvan Elves remained closer to their fey heritage, and did not follow their more sophisticated brethren.
In -27,000 DR the Fey send the elves (the rustic Sylvan/Green Elves that stayed with the Fey) to Toril to "undermine dragon Rule". One has to assume this exodus was probably to many worlds, not just Toril (although we are only concerned with Toril at this point).
In -25,400 - 1600 years after the fey elves left - the High Elves fled Tintageer, an island realm in faerie, and arrived on Toril. Only one group arrived, but there was one elf who had a different heritage. This is how we got Sun and Moon elves in the Realms - they were part of the same group, but Moon elves are all descendents of Sharlario Moonflower. The brief glimpse we get into his past indicates he comes from outside of Tintageer, which indicates there were at least a few different enclaves of High elves in faerie. This means that some of these high Elves - the ones the Fey called Eladrin - still existed in the planes, and other groups probably migrated to other worlds, for various reasons.
The original elven settlers on Toril worshiped the fey pantheon. Some still do (its assumed the Yuir Totems are some vestige of this). The Eladrin who came later worshiped the Seldarine; I assume the Seldarine are ascended Eladrin, but we really have no idea where they came from. Over time, the more sophisticated (and warlike) High (Eladrin) Elves annexed most of the sylvan (Green) Elf lands, and slowly turned (forced?) them to worship the Seldarine (which became known as the Elven Pantheon, even though the Elves originally worshiped Fey deities).
Fast forward some 36,000+ years: the current crop of elves on Toril all consider themselves elves. They differentiate amongst themselves by at least a dozen sub-races, and no-one even remembers the term 'Eladrin' (last used back in Faerie) anymore. Meanwhile, the planer High Elves - still bearing the monicker 'Eladrin' - spread out through the planes. The most famous & powerful (epic) of these ascend to a near-exarch status (Seraph?). These famous ones are known by others as Eladrin, and are the Eladrin we were familiar with from earlier editions. The ones that don't make a name for themselves - the under-achievers - are still simply called 'elves' (just like their Prime Material counterparts).
Fast forward another century: High Elves arrive from the planes (Faerie) on Toril, proudly proclaiming themselves "Eladrin". Humans (and others) get confused - the look just like elves. the existing high Elves - our Gold & Silver Elves - try to explain that they are also Eladrin, its just that nobody uses that archaic term anymore (except in the Outer Planes, where it is now only applied to those epic ones). Humans (and others) decide to just ignore the new terminology and go about their business. Most Elves - of all types - pretty much feel the same way. Some few Torillian High Elves do take to the old term 'Eladrin' as a type of racial pride, but for the most part life goes on as usual.
It comes down to this - only the High Elves from Faerie are calling themselves "Eladrin". Everyone else just considers them elves, like always. In the Outer planes they continue to apply the 'Eladrin' monicker just to the truly epic variety, using 'elf' for the not-so-epic members of the race. No one anywhere (except back in Faerie) really cares about what these newbies on Toril are calling themselves... its just another name for the same thing.
This means that if a 'lowly' Sylvan Elf managed to get uber-powerful, and traveled to the Outer Planes, folks there would call him an Eladrin, even though that would technically be incorrect. However, considering how much blood has been mixed between high Elves and Sylvan Elves in the past 36,000+ years on Toril, one can assume every elf on Toril has traces of both groups (which isn't even a racial thing at all originally - it was just a way to differentiate the ones who left their fey heritage behind from the ones that didn't). And since a Sylvan Elf coming from Toril probably worships the Seldarine, then calling them 'Eladrin' isn't really wrong either.
Its all just 'shades of grey'.
EDIT: Hopefully all of my heavy parenthesis-use translates well, for you Sightless, otherwise that's going to read like a mish-mosh. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2012 23:23:48 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 23:27:26
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| Markustay, could you please tell me where you are getting this information? I would genuinely like to know. Is it in one of the earlier editions? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 02:36:14
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No trouble on the listen through, it was nice and succinct. I find it interesting that they show heavy influencing by Keith Hajdoy’s “Voyages of the Fay,” but the differences are significant enough to indicate no direct borrowing like with some fantasy developments. You confirmed a number of hypotheses I had about the entire emergence of the of the concept largely based on the use of the term, which is the biggest indicator I had given its linguistic form.
I am big into that, I am afraid, as about as big into that as I am into logical systems and stats. Yeah, it’s super geek time. Anyhow, thanks for the explanation.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 03:17:25
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| Markus, I'm not sure about all of that. It also has too strong of 4e influences in it (especially with the Eladrin and all). We DO know that Gold Elves were really what they were long ago in Faerie (Prince Durothil referred to them as his Golden People). |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 04:12:06
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I suppose I have a strong issue with conflating the CG celestial eladrins with fey. There are some superficial similarities, but they're quite different. Unless you're willing to reject multiple editions of canon (2e and 3e) and replace it with the 4e PoL reinvention which also hinges on its use of a different cosmology, the eladrin of arborea/arvandor are quite distinct in history and metaphysical conception from the 4e feywild "eladrin". The eladrin of 2e/3e IMO seem connected to fey about as much as vrocks are connected to vultures.
Which one is better to take into consideration moving forward? One of them was in use for a longer period and inarguably has a larger wordcount detailing it, while the other was the result of imposing 4e's attempted redesign of D&D onto FR, with a design ethos of this way goes core 4e and FR must rework itself to fit. I don't really dig the idea that we're stuck with the effects of that, especially if 5e's core moves away from 4e material and presents the Great Wheel as at least one major option.
There's a lore discontinuity we're left with in regards to planar subjects (which is largely what I keep up with), so how precisely to handle that with regards to FR is going to be tricky. Ideally in my opinion it would go back to the Great Wheel and gloss over the 4e contradictions brought into FR as much as possible since that would IMO impact the whole of FR's corpus the least. And from my perspective I'd love to be able to write something in the next few years set within Sigil or elsewhere within the Great Wheel and happily reference Torillian characters as they appeared in 2e Planescape (Rowan Darkwood for instance, among others). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 21 Sep 2012 04:12:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 07:23:48
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It was part of the "Kill 'em and take their stuff" downsizing in 4e. Whoever came up with that I hope is LOOOOONG gone.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Markustay, could you please tell me where you are getting this information? I would genuinely like to know. Is it in one of the earlier editions?
Its from earlier editions, 4th edition, discussions about 5th edition, supposition, The Grand History of the Realms, Elaine's wonderful Evermeet novel (the parts about Tintagear and some other Elven history), and a lot of assumptions based on available facts.
This is how it was all pretty-much explained to us, mostly by Rich Baker, back when 4e first came out, when he was fielding tons of (very heated) questions about the 'new lore'. He didn't make it as detailed as I did (adding what few facts we have to the mix), but its basically exactly what he said: Elves are Eladrin, and Eladrin are Elves. The planer beings known as Eladrin were just the very powerful ones that had achieved some fame. It was basically a case of mistaking a small cross-section of a racial group for the entire group. This sort of thing happens all the time - in our world we call it 'racial profiling'.
If every Eladrin you ever heard of was a Celestial, then you would assume they were all celestials. "Eladrin" was just an ancient name for that particular branch of the Elven race. This was the explanation we were given, and we were also told (back on the WotC site) to simply ignore the new terminology, because nothing really changed - its simply a game mechanic.
Do I like that they took an existing D&D term and re-purposed it? NO, it was a bad mistake, but its not the worst one we are stuck living with. If that was the only thing about 4th edition they changed I think all of us would be way over it by now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2012 07:30:40 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 07:49:01
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| Oh, okay I see. As someone who mostly reads the novels, I only have a few D&D sourcebooks for references (such as 3e and 4e campaign guide, Races of the Wild, which is more core D&D than FR, Faiths and Pantheons, and a few other 4e books), so there are things I do not know. I have read Evermeet (and loved it), but that was several years ago, and that book was so full of information there is a lot I don't remember. I have Grand History of the Realms too, but I haven't read all the way through it. I did read the beginning though (and towards the end), and I do not remember any mention of the eladrin ^^; thanks for the info though. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 08:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I did read the beginning though (and towards the end), and I do not remember any mention of the eladrin ^^; thanks for the info though.
Fwiw, most details on the eladrin come from the 2e and 3e. I'd suggest the 2e Planescape products 'Planes of Chaos', 'Planescape Monstrous Compendium 2', and possibly the late 2e 'Warriors of Heaven'. 3e sources mostly recomprise the 2e material, albeit in less detail mostly, but some more material and history is added in some of the oddest places like Fiendish Codex I (an awesome book), and there's also coverage of them in the BoED.
4e diverges rather heavily on what an eladrin is, and their CG alignment itself vanishes, but it also takes place within a seperate continuity and cosmology in the core, so I don't necessarily consider its lore binding to the original 2e/3e conception of the race outside of the 4e core cosmology. Now that becomes interesting/problematic with FR which for two editions utilized that original conception, but then in 4e used (was made to use?) that very different 4e conception of what eladrins were, regardless of previous usage and presence of the earlier ones in its history. I wish the 5e FR team good luck in handling that pickle. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 01:26:04
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| Oh I see, yeah that would explain why I haven't heard of the eladrin before 4e ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 04:12:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh I see, yeah that would explain why I haven't heard of the eladrin before 4e ^^;
Also the 3.5 MM. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 12:36:31
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| It seems to me that the cosmological question seems to be as much, or perhaps a greater question, than the elf one. As given it's shift serves an important element in all this, at least as far as I can tell. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 00:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I did read the beginning though (and towards the end), and I do not remember any mention of the eladrin ^^; thanks for the info though.
Fwiw, most details on the eladrin come from the 2e and 3e. I'd suggest the 2e Planescape products 'Planes of Chaos', 'Planescape Monstrous Compendium 2', and possibly the late 2e 'Warriors of Heaven'. 3e sources mostly recomprise the 2e material, albeit in less detail mostly, but some more material and history is added in some of the oddest places like Fiendish Codex I (an awesome book), and there's also coverage of them in the BoED.
4e diverges rather heavily on what an eladrin is, and their CG alignment itself vanishes, but it also takes place within a seperate continuity and cosmology in the core, so I don't necessarily consider its lore binding to the original 2e/3e conception of the race outside of the 4e core cosmology. Now that becomes interesting/problematic with FR which for two editions utilized that original conception, but then in 4e used (was made to use?) that very different 4e conception of what eladrins were, regardless of previous usage and presence of the earlier ones in its history. I wish the 5e FR team good luck in handling that pickle.
Warriors of Heaven is the definitive source on Eladrin (the true ones) if you ask me. It also presents them as playable races (the Tulani are the best!!!!). |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 02:44:14
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| This might not be the right place, but does anyone have an suggestions on where to delve into information on the Star/Mithril Elves? I have arad a little bit about them (and Yuirwood I think?), but I would love to delve deeper. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 03:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
This might not be the right place, but does anyone have an suggestions on where to delve into information on the Star/Mithril Elves? I have arad a little bit about them (and Yuirwood I think?), but I would love to delve deeper.
Have you read the section for the star elves in 3e's Unapproachable East sourcebook? Also, Rich Baker's "Last Mythal" novels, and Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker novel as well. [Although the star elven character, Shalarra, wasn't referenced as such. See below.]
As Elaine has noted previously, she obtained a copy of the manuscript for the UE tome from WotC and read it for continuity, and also, research ways in which she could to tie the novel more closely with the new lore on the star elves.
So to put it simply... star elves may have had a place in the Realms "before" the official release of UE, but it wasn't until the tome was available to the public that readers could finally recognise what Shalarra was when they read the entry about the star elves in the sourcebook. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 04:59:50
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Pretty much what Sage said. I'm a huge fan on Star Elves/Ruar'Tel'Quessir (they're my favourite with Sun/High/Gold Elves/Ar'Tel'Quessir). I'm actually RPing my Star Elf Nimrohel (yes, the name was inspired and seemed to fit with the general naming convention of Elves in FR) in the Candlekeep Inn right now!
I was also able to squeeze out that they were being hunted by something in the "Ask Ed" thread. Apparently, there are A LOT of NDAs surrounding the Star Elves. Hopefully, we'll see some of these come to light and learn more about them. I, for one, would kill for more lore about Star Elves and Yuireshanyaar and Sildeyuir (and Aryvandaar and Silunvanded!!!!!). |
Edited by - Aryalómë on 04 Oct 2012 05:02:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:13:25
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| I think Bruce R. Cordell's Stardeep touched on star elves, if I remember correctly--I could be wrong. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:23:31
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Yup.
Never read it, but I've heard mixed reviews. I did enjoy the lead-in novel, Darkvision (one of the characters continues her story in Stardeep).
The title just seemed a bit too scify for my tastes. I also didn't understand the need for yet-another Elven subrace. The angler-fish art in Unapproachable east also didn't do them any favors. I believe they were also called Platinum elves (not sure... something I heard somewhere...)
I think in 5e, in order to rectify some of the confusion, they should all just be called elves, and then turn 'Eladrin' into a race-specific PrC/epic destiny. In the same way a human could be become an angel, or a fiend. it should be more of an apotheosis. Thus, we can say, "while every elf at its core caries the blood of the Eldarin, only those worthy can achieve such a status". Level one Eladrin make no sense to me.
And this thread just lead to another piece of the 'universal puzzle' click into place for me. I am not sure if I am building a set of divine game rules at this point, or a RW religious philosophy.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2012 19:27:12 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:52:34
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Thank you Sage, Correllons Devoit and Aryalome. :) I am actually reading the The Mythal Series at the moment (1/3 into book 2) and hence why I become interested. I read Windwalker when it came out. I may have to re-read it. I did not think to look in Unapproachable East. It has been a long time since I have looked in that book as well.
I think they have been called Mithril Elves as well?
oh...my "stack" of books to read just ever grows (luckily some are digital so I don't keep having to buy new bookcases).
Again, thank you. :) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:32:07
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| You're welcome :) the Last Mythal is a good trilogy. In the Anthology of the Elves, the last story is about an elf named Daried, and while he is not mentioned in the Last Mythal, he is a part of the army, and he makes an appearance in Blades of the Moonsea trilogy, which is also by Richard Baker and I recommend it :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:34:09
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| Personally liked the eladren/elf split. Thought it was a nice simplification for mechanics purposes, and I'll probably keep it in my game after the next edition rolls around. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:42:47
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I don't think anyone is arguing that point.
Its the fact that they couldn't come up with a new name (or just go back to 'Grey Elves'). Eladrin was already in-use for something else.
The whole "kill them and take their stuff" concept was a very, VERY BAD idea. It forces disparate bits of lore to merge, and causes numerous continuity conflicts. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 06:07:46
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| Encase no one has read it yet, there is a forgotten realms article for 3rd edition in dragon magazine #350 by Eric L. boyd on varies planetouched one of which is called Celadrins which is a descendant of a eladrin and a elf. Just thought it would be somewhat dealing with the topic on hand, pretty interesting read if u use eladrins alot in your games. |
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What will Elves be after the Sundering?
