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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 14:47:25
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Simple question really. Are there muskets in 3.x Forgotten Realms? I know there are pistols but haven't read anything about muskets in Faerun. DMG has them both for renaissance weapons. I know there were plans to incorporate smokepowder weapons for 3.x Faerun but that was scrapped. Todd Lockwood still has the drawings but that's it. I want to make an army like the Ottoman Janissaries who were one of the first to make use of and master firearms which led to their success.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 15:53:59
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| Smokepowder weapons would mostlikely originate from Lantan or Kara-Tur and given the technology behind it would be extremly expensive. If they find their ways in the hands of people outside the gnomish homeland or the Kara-Tur areas i´d say they are in extremly small numbers and only a handfull of people would even know how to use them and mostlikely guarded as well protected artifacts. Definatly not a massproduced army weapon. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:05:49
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| Haven't seen them in the 3rd edition, they're along with other weapons of that type in Forgotten Realms Adventures. |
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Edited by - Marc on 13 Sep 2012 16:06:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:54:00
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| I never read that Maztica series, but didn't the Iron Legion use longarms? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4448 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 17:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Smokepowder weapons would mostlikely originate from Lantan or Kara-Tur and given the technology behind it would be extremly expensive. If they find their ways in the hands of people outside the gnomish homeland or the Kara-Tur areas i´d say they are in extremly small numbers and only a handfull of people would even know how to use them and mostlikely guarded as well protected artifacts. Definatly not a massproduced army weapon.
While I can see this in the settings novels and such, the game mechanics certianly don't support. I base this on the Player's Guide to Faerûn book where anyone with the Sword Coast region can obtain a pistol with 100 shots as their starting equipment. As far as muskets go, I'm sure there's less than this but I'd venture to say that they exist in the Realms. As far as making it plausable in the Realms, I don't see why you couldn't do this. There is smokepowder. There are pistols. One could easily assume that there are muskets/rifles. I'd say go for it. |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 17:41:11
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Cool. I could also bribe/kidnap/blackmail a kara-turan or lantanese alchemist for the formula for smokepowder and reverse engineer a pistol or musket for it's design blueprints. Plus there's always that one ambitious alchemist who's willing to sellout for money, power and prestige. Banites and Zhentarim could clearly benefit from this.  |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 18:29:43
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| They officially do exist but in small quantities. They are not mass produced and I believe it is because the followers of Gond keep it that way. They didn't even want to mass produce the printing press. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 19:55:51
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| While the Player´s Guide to Faerun says you can buy a pistol, you only get 10 bullets, so you would need to buy more of them if you want to take on alot more than those 10 people, plus it would only be logical to have these bullets differ in quality dipending where you might aquire them, i doubt the officials would support distribution of smokepowder weapons and you mostlikely would need to resort to black market or no public places for those. Also do not forget if you never were trained in the use of such a weapon malfunctions can happen or simply the manufacturing is miserable and the weapon can blow in your hand not to mention the time you need to reload the weapon. Mind you these are not highly professional firearms and are more prone to failure. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 13 Sep 2012 19:56:25 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:13:37
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| Refer to the PRD for firearm rules. They have the best one, so far, concerning firearms in a d20 fantasy game. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:15:21
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Arquebuses, calivers, and muskets are all listed as weapons made and traded by the priests of Gond in Lantan, according to FRA. Unless some of that was actually nullified/abrogated by 3E materials (as opposed to not being fully detailed) it would remain canon, yes?
I assume you want a canon answer.
Outside of canon, it's entirely up to you.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 13 Sep 2012 20:17:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:19:22
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I had written a fan-fic a long time ago wherein the Zhentarrim were importing M-16's into the Realms.
Needless to say, it didn't workout so well for them. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 20:27:10 |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:23:35
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| Why buy when I can make? As I said, all I need is someone who knows how to make the guns and the smokepowder and the operation of the guns. I'll take his knowledge and teach my own alchemists to make smokepowder, craftsmen to make the guns, and train my troopers to use them[Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)]. I don't plan on arming the whole army with muskets, but rather make a unit of sharpshooters specialized in their use[Weapon Focus (firearms) & Weapon Specialization (firearms)]. It's not that hard to imagine and definately not impossible. Humans are smart and curious. They learn things quickly. Plus it's for the Zhentarim backed Banites of Mintar so they have the funding and the muscle to accomplish this feat. |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had written a fan-fic a long time ago wherein the Zhentarrim were importing M-16's into the Realms.
Needless to say, it didn't workout so well for them.
Haha. It's always the Zhents. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:30:01
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The way I figured it, gunpowder (black powder/smokepowder) created on Toril is inert, but gunpowder created on other worlds becomes highly unstable in Realmspace. It was actually a rather amusing story, with Elminster and the Blackstaff watching (discreetly) from a hill top. The gist of the ending was, "some problems take care of themselves".
New Theory:
I just had another thought - I held for awhile now that Smokepowder in the Realms is the same substance as Black powder on other worlds, accept with a dweomer placed on it to bypass Ao's decree (that gunpowder doesn't function in Realmspace). The best argument against that is that in the Watercourse novels, there is no mention of a spell being needed.
So what if its even simpler then that? Does anyone remember that rock that Morik carried around so he couldn't be scryed? (magic wouldn't work on him). It was a piece of dead-magic. What if all the priests of Gond (and others, like the Shou alchemists) have discovered was that all you need do is crush-up some of that and add into the Black powder to make Smoke Powder? If Ao's laws are magical in nature (so as to circumvent the natural laws of the universe), then all it would take was a dead-magic zone to get tech to function properly.
Just a theory, mind you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 20:31:39 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:35:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
Why buy when I can make? As I said, all I need is someone who knows how to make the guns and the smokepowder and the operation of the guns. I'll take his knowledge and teach my own alchemists to make smokepowder, craftsmen to make the guns, and train my troopers to use them[Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)]. I don't plan on arming the whole army with muskets, but rather make a unit of sharpshooters specialized in their use[Weapon Focus (firearms) & Weapon Specialization (firearms)]. It's not that hard to imagine and definately not impossible. Humans are smart and curious. They learn things quickly. Plus it's for the Zhentarim backed Banites of Mintar so they have the funding and the muscle to accomplish this feat.
Heck, it really shouldn't stay 'exotic.' Guns are easier to learn to use than bows, which are 'Martial.'
But you have hit on the main problem with fantasy gun control in FR. If smoke powder and gun-making are just mundane technology that can be replicated by any skilled chemist or smith, then there's no plausible way to prevent the diffusion that you describe.
No way, that is, short of divine intervention or blowing up Lantan and trashing the world economy. 4E did just that.
I would prefer one of two options:
1) It's just technlogy, and it spreads, despite efforts by the Gondsmen to keep trade secrets. Let it spread as described by FRA, with the weapons gradually becoming more available and prices falling. If the knowledge is adopted by local smiths and alchemists, expect guns to eventually become cheap and fairly common in many regions.It won't happen overnight.
2) Smokepowder only works by the blessing of Gond. Just ignore Kara Tur smokepowder weapons, or assume that Gond is worshipped there under another name, as an alcemhist-immortal, maybe.
Any rivals to Lantanese powder makers are using their own priests of Gond. There must be renegades, independents, members of sects that don’t bow to Lantan, etc. Gond is a neutral god who cares about making stuff, not imposing worldwide order and conformity.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 13 Sep 2012 20:38:58 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I figured it, gunpowder (black powder/smokepowder) created on Toril is inert, but gunpowder created on other worlds becomes highly unstable in Realmspace. It was actually a rather amusing story, with Elminster and the Blackstaff watching (discreetly) from a hill top. The gist of the ending was, "some problems take care of themselves".
New Theory:
I just had another thought - I held for awhile now that Smokepowder in the Realms is the same substance as Black powder on other worlds, accept with a dweomer placed on it to bypass Ao's decree (that gunpowder doesn't function in Realmspace). The best argument against that is that in the Watercourse novels, there is no mention of a spell being needed.
So what if its even simpler then that? Does anyone remember that rock that Morik carried around so he couldn't be scryed? (magic wouldn't work on him). It was a piece of dead-magic. What if all the priests of Gond (and others, like the Shou alchemists) have discovered was that all you need do is crush-up some of that and add into the Black powder to make Smoke Powder? If Ao's laws are magical in nature (so as to circumvent the natural laws of the universe), then all it would take was a dead-magic zone to get tech to function properly.
Just a theory, mind you.
Why would AO care at all about something like gunpowder? That seems bizarre. It's beneath an Overgod.
YMMV
EDIT- Dead magic rocks do sound cool.I could think of better things to do with one than crush it to use as part of an explosive. Unless....does burning smoke powder create small dead magic zones? If so, witchhunters from Luthcheq (sp) should make the stuff and use it fron anti-wizard grendades.
Maybe that's why Khelbun, the big sissy, is so terrified of the stuff?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 13 Sep 2012 20:44:23 |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Any rivals to Lantanese powder makers are using their own priests of Gond. There must be renegades, independents, members of sects that don’t bow to Lantan, etc. Gond is a neutral god who cares about making stuff, not imposing worldwide order and conformity.
This is what I was going for.
And for Markustay's theory,  .
What would Ao think, or do about it? If ever he does anything.  |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
They officially do exist but in small quantities. They are not mass produced and I believe it is because the followers of Gond keep it that way. They didn't even want to mass produce the printing press.
Too bad for them that skilled artisans (of which there are so many in canon sources) who get their hands on a press or a gun can reverse engineer it.
These are not inventions that can easily be kept secret.
If the Gondsmen are exporting guns, as they have been in canon sources since FRA came out, then it's pretty much impossible to keep the design of firearms a secret. It's just not that complex. The metallurgy needed is already pretty widespread, to judge from other available equipment(springs, locks, armor, etc.)
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 13 Sep 2012 20:53:39 |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 21:01:27
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I wonder why Gond's clergy is so strict with gun control yet their dogma teaches to spread knowledge and innovation of new creations so that all may see the greatness of the Wonderbringer. Maybe it's the will of the clegry and not Gond himself?
EDIT-just read faiths and pantheons. Probably the only reason the Church of Gond controls the spread and knowledge of smokepowder and it's derivatives is because of the ire it caused to certain rulers fearful of it's power. So they decided to appease the rulers and to control it's spread going so far as sabotage and bringing financial ruin to those who spread it without the Church's consent. They fear threats from these mortals more than the will of their god? This goes against Gond's dogma which encourages you to be curious and tinker with things and to encourage others to do the same and spread your knowledge to all so that all may feel the Wonderbringer's greatness. As far as I can see this is the Church's laws not Gond's. |
Edited by - Doge on 13 Sep 2012 21:32:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 21:12:44
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What if dwarves have this tech, and have had it for thousands of years, and aware of its dangers? Perhaps they have seen what 'horrors humans wrought' in ages past, and have their own, covert group that finds these gun-makers and sabotages or even kills them?
The problem is, the eastern dwarves (korobokuru) 'lost their way' long ago, and no longer behave like true dwarves, which includes impeding humans in their desires to become technologically superior. This is why it is starting to get out of hand in Kara-Tur.
We have seen countless examples of mortals finding 'work-arounds' for the various rules of the universe (like the Godwall, or spelljamming), so its just a matter of time (every few centuries) where they find ways around Realmspace's physics. This is where the dwarves come in - they make sure humans don't get 'too advanced'.
Just an idea, of course. I created a dwarven version of the Eldreth Veluuthra (but not as xenophobic).
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
And for Markustay's theory, .
What would Ao think, or do about it? If ever he does anything.
What I think is that Ao's rules were pretty lax back in the Days of Thunder, and then LOTS of bad stuff happened (see other threads for my theories about there having been a highly advanced human culture), so he sets some rules in-place, for both mortals and deities (and put the Primordials in a 'time-out').
Once Ao does something like this, he pretty much ignores mortals. He only notices things when deities start messing stuff up (otherwise he probably would have intervened during several Msytryl-deaths). His job is to babysit the deities - its their job to watch over their mortal followers.
IMO, of curse. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 21:13:39 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 23:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
I wonder why Gond's clergy is so strict with gun control yet their dogma teaches to spread knowledge and innovation of new creations so that all may see the greatness of the Wonderbringer. Maybe it's the will of the clegry and not Gond himself?
EDIT-just read faiths and pantheons. Probably the only reason the Church of Gond controls the spread and knowledge of smokepowder and it's derivatives is because of the ire it caused to certain rulers fearful of it's power. So they decided to appease the rulers and to control it's spread going so far as sabotage and bringing financial ruin to those who spread it without the Church's consent. They fear threats from these mortals more than the will of their god? This goes against Gond's dogma which encourages you to be curious and tinker with things and to encourage others to do the same and spread your knowledge to all so that all may feel the Wonderbringer's greatness. As far as I can see this is the Church's laws not Gond's.
Whic is why I would introduce a sect of Gondmsen who reject the "cowardly" actions of the church in Lantan, and actively seek to spread the new technologies.
If they can gain a little additional wealth and power while doing so-- well, Gond never taught his followers that they had to remain poor.
For many of them, though, it really would be about spreading knwoledge and encouraging smiths, alchemists, tibnkers, etc to come up with new stuff.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 13 Sep 2012 23:09:48 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2435 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 23:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
outside the gnomish homeland or the Kara-Tur areas i´d say they are in extremly small numbers and only a handfull of people would even know how to use them and mostlikely guarded as well protected artifacts. Definatly not a massproduced army weapon.
Also, all spelljamming ports, except Waterdeep (because smokepowder is one of Blackstaff's little quirks) - mostly (smugglers are trying anyway).
But yeah, not useable in large quantities because good smokepowder are rather expensive and not mass-produced (there were mentions of fireworks, but for all we know it may be where most failed batches end up).
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
Banites and Zhentarim could clearly benefit from this.
No one with lots of magic-using foes would bother too much. Because it's kind of awkward when the target takes a point-blank blunderbuss shot in the face and then recovers in about as much time as it takes to say "you know what protection from normal missiles is, right?", while reload takes much more. Like in "Gunne Runner"
So in the end, even without nerfed statistics, it's a significant advantage for... fighting small groups of tough, magic-resistant (otherwise an average mageling with a few wands is better) foes without much magic or psionics (i.e. not illithids and their pets either). How much bother with logistics and training this is really worth?
Now, artillery is another matter, especially in anti-ship role. BTW, there were Thayan bombards, with what, some liquid propellant?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Theory:
I just had another thought - I held for awhile now that Smokepowder in the Realms is the same substance as Black powder on other worlds, accept with a dweomer placed on it to bypass Ao's decree [...] The best argument against that is that in the Watercourse novels, there is no mention of a spell being needed.
A poor demiurge can't even keep track of his pants these days... (sigh)  For one, it's exactly the same out of Toril and out of Realmspace - there's both SJ lore on the matter and linked Realmslore (e.g. those short stories on contraband in Waterdeep).
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Guns are easier to learn to use than bows, which are 'Martial.'
But much less easy than crossbows. Especially the part about manually measured powder of variable quality.
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
EDIT-just read faiths and pantheons. Probably the only reason the Church of Gond controls the spread and knowledge of smokepowder and it's derivatives is because of the ire it caused to certain rulers fearful of it's power.
That, and because Church of Gond and Kara-Tur are the only groups on surface (drow have great artisans and alchemists, but it's simply not something they would bother to do) both good enough to have their products not explode in the user's face half of the time and numerous enough to matter.
Suppose "those two guys in Neverwinter" occasionally make guns, and much better than an average starwheel pistol, and from Zakharan alchemists (they developed khamsin!) a few may quietly make a batch of fine, stable smokepowder for their constant clients now and then... but such folk contributes to the whole picture less than smugglers. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 14 Sep 2012 19:14:51 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 02:57:27
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I'm not too sure about 'much less easy than crossbows.'
But let's say 'a little harder.' There are more steps to using a matchlock, and you do have a burning slow match in play.
In AD&D 2E, firearms spec should cost only two slots, like crossbow spec, and not three like bows. Most rules I have seen work like that, I think.
If using group proficiencies, I would allow one tight group (two slots) to cover all common hand held firearms.
Another tight group would cover artillery.
A broad group ( 3 slots) would cover everything from rockets to cannon to pistols.
Of course, that's Complete Fighters' stuff. Only warrior classes can take group WPs under those rules. Only fighters can spec.
In 3E, guns could be martial weapons (between simple and exotic). In the case of characters with blanket martial proficiency that come from regions where guns are rare or unknown it wouldn't be unreasonable to assign unfamiliarity penalties that would vanish with practice. A few weeks of hard drilling can make a ploughboy into a fairly competent musketeer (in the sense of handling the weapon-- not in terms of actual combat experience or all the other skills a good soldier needs).PC fighters shouldn't have to blow a feat to learn to use a weapon that a peon can be readily taught to use.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 03:40:37
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RE Who makes the stuff:
FRA mentions that the Thayvians have bombards. Expensive and rare- but they have them. This is in the section on gunpowder/smokepowder weapons.
Page 63 of Faiths and Pantheons notes 'rival makers' in Calimshan and the Tashalar. From the subtext, it seems these makers are not Gondar. Priests of Gond are trying to stop them, and there is no mention of a rift within the church.
Some people in Kara Tur have been making smoke powder for 'hundreds of years' according to FRA.
There really is no secret of smoke-powder, no matter what some priests in Lantan think.
Once somebody uses one of the printing presses to publish the formula, and copies are made...
Add to this the gradual increase in trade with the Shou...
By the 1370s, it was probably too late for some Luddite nutcases like Khelbun or greedy jerks in Lantan to stop the diffusion of the technology.
DIFUSSION, 'PROGRESS', CHANGE:
You know what moved Faerun away from the direction technological change and trade were taking it; a setting with printers and gun makers in every big city, armies equipped with muskets and cannon, long range navigation and fully rigged sailing vessels carrying large international trade, ‘New World’ colonies, and all that Early Modern goodness?
4E.
4E was a massive reset. The massive cataclysm was exactly what FR needed to change the direction things were headed (assuming that one didn’t like that direction—I rather think a swashbuckling, swords-and-pistols world of intrigue and commerce sounds fun). Lantan was demolished. International trade must have taken a massive hit. Whole nations vanished or where overrun by monsters or were transformed in Plaguelands. Continents vanished! Bye Maztica, we hardly knew ye.
A lot of Shou showed up in Faerun, though, enough to create Nathlan. Maybe they brought the skills to make smoke powder with them and maybe they did not.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 14 Sep 2012 03:47:36 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 04:43:01
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combatmedic, that is one of my greatest hates for 4e FR. I love the idea of the world on the verge of change, and I think it fits the history of Faerûn well. Humans are supposed to be the innovators in most fantasy settings, and the 14th century was seeing the consolidation of human dominance of the world - and not through monolithic magical empires like in the past, but through small competing nations with a largely "secular" society, which further drives innovation.
I'm aware there's a lot of people who hate that kind of thing, though, so, of course, YMMV.  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 05:12:33
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I could go either way.
What doesn’t interest me so much is an approach in which gods getting blown up is not really a big deal, but a gunsmith or printer coming to town and setting up shop is an RSE to be avoided. Gods come and go and not much changes, but gods forbid the peons get their hands on some books or guns. :0
Not that there mere existence of 'smoke powder' or printing presses with moveable type means that everything will suddenly look 'Early Modern.' Ideas do take time to diffuse and 'progress' is not inevitable in the real world, so I don't see why it must be in FR.
But when I look at 2E or 3E FR with its the very high rates of literacy, the many interlinked metropolises and smaller cities, the scale of intercontinental and interregional trade, voyages of discovery, colonization of Maztica, -- it was not what I'd call a recipe for 'fantasy medieval stasis.'
An alternate 100 year leap continuity (without, I suppose, most of the other huge changes in 4E) in which guns and printing had become more common and affected the setting’s history would be fun. If somebody ran that kind of game, I’d play.
I might go for a wizard with a brace of pistols and a monkey familiar. I’d train my familiar to fetch paper cartridges from my satchel/bandolier/knapsack/cartridge box. Yes, he’d be a ‘powder monkey.’
Muwahahahaaa
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 05:21:56
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I like most of 4E too, though. The ‘prog rock album cover’ feeling really works for me. They went all out. The RSEs this time really did shake things up in huge ways. The only thing they could have gone further with would be to have killed certain NPCs.
What I would NOT have liked is a hundred year leap that didn't blow up the world but somehow ignored all the new technology, opening of trade routes, etc in 2E and 3E.
The hundred year leap without the Spell plague and Returned Abeir would, IMO, not plausibly have led to 'it's just like 3E FR but with some new NPCs.' Stuff was changing in ways both large and small. A whole new continent was discovered. Trade with Kara Tur seemed to increase, with more movement of people from Faerun to Kara Tur and vice versa. Guns went from crude medieval bombards and rare Shou rockets (rare in Faerun) to pretty sophisticated 1500s level technology almost overnight. Lantan was exporting. The Gondar failed to keep a monopoly on powder manufacture in Faerun. Waterdeep had printing presses and chapbooks, and this technology did indeed seem to be spreading (as it surely would in a setting with so many literate people, wizards, etc.).
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 14 Sep 2012 05:25:58 |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 07:12:23
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| I just find it a lame reason that smokepowder is controlled because some rulers feared it. They're far from being the nuclear weapons of their age. That's what magic is. As for falling in the hands of commoners, don't they fear the crossbow? The crossbow is the nearest weapon to these guns in damage and range, even reload time, and they're simple weapons too, not exotic like firearms, meaning anyone with half a brain can be a competent marksman with a bit of training. Firearms really aren't that strong. They're just different. I'd pick firearms over crossbows or bows and go through all that trouble not because it makes me more powerful but because it makes me different. Facing a group of archers is a common occurance while seeing a troop of musketeers with their new loud, smoky weapons is something that inspires awe and dread thought not actually being more effective than the archers. Cannons they should fear, but it can't be mass produced the way small arms can be. More like royal gifts from nobles. In this way it regulates itself. There's no certainty that people will adopt new technology over the ones already tested and proven by time. There's a lot of good inventions that people just didn't bother with and these ideas died a natural death. Firearms aren't for everyone and not everyone can afford it's continued use. So why did they even bother coming up with cheap excuses to stop the spread of technology? If people like it, then they use it, if they don't, well it'll just be another novelty. I just don't like lame excuses stopping you from procuring something you want. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 19:26:20
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Aw, C'mon... who doesn't want to be This Guy?
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
4E was a massive reset. The massive cataclysm was exactly what FR needed to change the direction things were headed (assuming that one didn’t like that direction—I rather think a swashbuckling, swords-and-pistols world of intrigue and commerce sounds fun).
Couldn't agree more. 'Purists' will argue "thats not the Realms". In 5e, with their plan to 'support all eras of play', my answer to purists is, "SO?!" If the 5e Realms is just like the OGB Realms, then it serves no purpose, does it? We already have the OGB Realms. Some folks just like to rail against progress (even when it makes perfect, logical sense to have some).
If 5e FR is just like 1eFR, then I won't bother playing in it - I'll just keep playing in the 1e/2e/3e era. What really bothers me is the fact we already had all of these things, so it isn't a change at all. they 'nerfed' what should have been.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
A lot of Shou showed up in Faerun, though, enough to create Nathlan. Maybe they brought the skills to make smoke powder with them and maybe they did not.
They should have brought those skills with them - it was fairly common knowledge (the used gunpowder quite a bit during the Tuigan war.. it wasn't very effective).
One question: Whats Nathlan?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2012 19:30:04 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 19:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
I just find it a lame reason that smokepowder is controlled because some rulers feared it. They're far from being the nuclear weapons of their age. That's what magic is. As for falling in the hands of commoners, don't they fear the crossbow? The crossbow is the nearest weapon to these guns in damage and range, even reload time, and they're simple weapons too, not exotic like firearms, meaning anyone with half a brain can be a competent marksman with a bit of training. Firearms really aren't that strong. They're just different. I'd pick firearms over crossbows or bows and go through all that trouble not because it makes me more powerful but because it makes me different. Facing a group of archers is a common occurance while seeing a troop of musketeers with their new loud, smoky weapons is something that inspires awe and dread thought not actually being more effective than the archers. Cannons they should fear, but it can't be mass produced the way small arms can be. More like royal gifts from nobles. In this way it regulates itself. There's no certainty that people will adopt new technology over the ones already tested and proven by time. There's a lot of good inventions that people just didn't bother with and these ideas died a natural death. Firearms aren't for everyone and not everyone can afford it's continued use. So why did they even bother coming up with cheap excuses to stop the spread of technology? If people like it, then they use it, if they don't, well it'll just be another novelty. I just don't like lame excuses stopping you from procuring something you want.
The early 2E designers skipped straight to effective battlefield weapons like matchlock muskets. They didn't muck about with the pot-de-fer or even the handgonne. Was all that justified given the divine intervention of Gond? Sure.
But it was a huge leap in gunpowder teach, going overnight from guns being essentially absent in Faerun to guns equivalent to the arms of 16th and even early 17th Centuries AD (in Europe) being available.
I get the impression, though, that the early 2e designers had a much more 'dynamic' view of the setting, one that allowed for some technological advances and a lot of exploration and trade. FRA suggested a very short timeline, just a few years, over which the price of guns would fall due to imports (and presumably people making copies).
You are 100% correct that matchlocks are not nukes.
But a matchlock musket is a pretty useful battlefield. There were real economic, tactical, and logistical reasons why these types of guns quickly displaced bows and crossbows in most parts of the real world. Produced in sufficient numbers they become much, much cheaper. Demand feeds supply as more and more artisans make these weapons. More people make powder. Cheap, easy to train the troops to use, fairly effective on the battlefield= hell yeah, every smart prince wants some matchlocks for his soldiers. Prices fall as production rises.
Is all that inevitable? No, but if we look back at history we see that powers which were quick to adopt guns really did gain an advantage over those which were slow to adopt guns.
Like you, I’m not big on ‘lame’ excuses to gimp guns or make them in incredibly expensive and hard to obtain.
A hand wave of 'we've got magic and so don't need guns' doesn't work. You could make the same argument for heavily armored cavalry, archers, castles, and all sorts of non-military stuff. If magic is so common that it obviates the need for 'mundane' technology, then FR should looking nothing like it does.
I think that some fans and some designers just don’t like guns.
• Some of them have an exaggerated idea of the deadliness of early firearms in small group combat (they probably aren’t thinking of the differences between compare small numbers of specialist adventures fighting monsters in a dungeon or wilderness and masses of soldiers facing masses of soldiers across a battlefield).’Guns are magic death wands; one shot kills the fighter/dragon/Elminster.’ Why that should be so in a system in which one stout blow from a great sword won’t do the same…
• Other guys just hate guns because ‘guns aren’t fantasy.’ I’m honestly not sure where that comes from.
• Some people think that gunpowder technology isn’t ‘medieval’, but that makes no sense at all. Do they mean it doesn’t fit Early Medieval Europe? Sure, but neither does plate armor. The latter part of the Medieval Period in Europe saw a lot of development in cannon, explosives, and firearms. If the 1300s and 1400s aren’t medieval, then I don’t know what is. I note that FR is supposed to have a late Medieval tech base, although in many ways it appears more advanced and more developed than that would suggest.
• If they simply don’t like gunpowder technology in the FR setting for aesthetic reasons, I think that’s understandable. I don’t like certain things included in various settings, simply on the grounds that these things don’t appeal to my sensibilities.
Faerun is not Earth, and it doesn’t need to have everything that Earth had at a given period in history.
Canon 2E Faerun was becoming increasingly Earthlike, though;
• Guns
• Printing presses
• Kara Tur- Koryo, Tabot, Wa….even the names show which countries those are based on.
• Maztica, complete with Cortez…err Cordell. Discovery and colonies in an obvious New World/Mesoamerica analog
• Hordelands—now with Mongol invasions and the Silk Road!
• Osse (it is canon, right? Australia—puntatsic)
3E backed off that a bit and focused on Faerun and high fantasy stuff, but it wasn’t until 4E that a solid break was made with the ‘fantasy Earth’ stuff that was being incorporated into the setting.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 14 Sep 2012 19:43:32 |
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Muskets in Faerun
