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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:17:21
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Just having this discussion on another forum and figured I would see what other gamers preferred :)
I chose Monks due to spell resistance and their ridiculous saving throws, but feel free to chime in on fighters/Rogue types too.
Obviously timestop is a killer against any unwarded combatant since you can create so many variables around them for time to resume.
I always favored area of effect spells(transmute earth to mud), and spells which do not give saving throws or in which spell resistance plays no part(Forcecage)
While of course using greater invisibility and flying and generally staying out of the way.
What are your favorite spells and why or combinations?
Let's break this down by best for 10th level, 15th level, and 20th+ level characters. Any higher into Epic levels and Casters can usually more easily make the caster check required to negate spell resistance.
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Edited by - Firestorm on 13 Sep 2012 00:54:04
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:24:50
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| Well spell resistance makes it harder, so would go with indirect spells. Earthquake for example. Clearly this is 3rd or 4th Edition rules. Meteor Strike. Ice Storm. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 00:24:16
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I suppose it would depend where you cast the earthquake, but generally Monks can make reflex saves on everything that spell can do.
Meteor Strike? I don't think I know that spell. unless it is a homemade spell. Not sure about ice storm since a monk's spell resistance generally rends them immune to its effects. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 01:04:20
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NOTE: Response assumes third edition.
Shapechange (dire tortoise) + Forcecage (jail bar version) and/or Heightened Black Tentacles + True Strike + Metamagic Orb of Fire = dead monk.
Shaped Wall of Force + Cloudkill = dead level 10 monk (can't get out of the wall of force).
Gate + calling a creature that should have at minimum 34 HD if not 50 = dead monk (the monk is grossly outclassed).
For the particularly evil-minded:
Kidnap a commoner + screw with its mind so it loves the monk + cast Love's Pain = dead monk.
Monks are, mechanically, one of the absolute worst classes in third edition, while wizards are one of the best (also note that no-SR spells would be the order of the day here, and a wizard does have plenty of them). No Monk will be able to pin down a wizard who doesn't want to be pinned down. Even if by some act of random chance a monk happens to kill a wizard (the wizard would have to let him win, virtually), it was probably just a projected image of a simulacrum of an astral projection coming from a private demiplane anyway. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 01:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
NOTE: Response assumes third edition.
Shapechange (dire tortoise) + Forcecage (jail bar version) and/or Heightened Black Tentacles + True Strike + Metamagic Orb of Fire = dead monk.
Shaped Wall of Force + Cloudkill = dead level 10 monk (can't get out of the wall of force).
Gate + calling a creature that should have at minimum 34 HD if not 50 = dead monk (the monk is grossly outclassed).
For the particularly evil-minded:
Kidnap a commoner + screw with its mind so it loves the monk + cast Love's Pain = dead monk.
Monks are, mechanically, one of the absolute worst classes in third edition, while wizards are one of the best (also note that no-SR spells would be the order of the day here, and a wizard does have plenty of them). No Monk will be able to pin down a wizard who doesn't want to be pinned down. Even if by some act of random chance a monk happens to kill a wizard (the wizard would have to let him win, virtually), it was probably just a projected image of a simulacrum of an astral projection coming from a private demiplane anyway.
The love's pain one made me lol
I am assuming the mindrape spell preludes |
Edited by - Firestorm on 13 Sep 2012 01:32:26 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 03:49:35
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| Another one that made me laugh. A flight spell combined with reverse gravity |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 04:48:44
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Actually, Monks have always been extremely efficient against spellcasters, especially in 3E. Their special qualities all seemed aimed to counter them; stunning attacks (weak Fortitudes the arcane ones all have), evasion/improved evasion, still mind, all good saves, spell resistance, poison/disease immunity, fast speed (to move in on the spellcasters hiding in the back easier), high touch AC, etc.
In my games, I had a player with a Monk character specializing in pressure point attacks (took a lot of feats that relied on the use of Stunning Fist), with high Dex and Improved Initiative, and first thing he went for was a spellcasting enemy and he'd almost always have them paralyzed or stunned before the fight began. Of course, my spellcasting players would freak whenever monks were the enemy, heh heh. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 05:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
NOTE: Response assumes third edition.
Shapechange (dire tortoise) + Forcecage (jail bar version) and/or Heightened Black Tentacles + True Strike + Metamagic Orb of Fire = dead monk.
Shaped Wall of Force + Cloudkill = dead level 10 monk (can't get out of the wall of force).
Gate + calling a creature that should have at minimum 34 HD if not 50 = dead monk (the monk is grossly outclassed).
For the particularly evil-minded:
Kidnap a commoner + screw with its mind so it loves the monk + cast Love's Pain = dead monk.
Monks are, mechanically, one of the absolute worst classes in third edition, while wizards are one of the best (also note that no-SR spells would be the order of the day here, and a wizard does have plenty of them). No Monk will be able to pin down a wizard who doesn't want to be pinned down. Even if by some act of random chance a monk happens to kill a wizard (the wizard would have to let him win, virtually), it was probably just a projected image of a simulacrum of an astral projection coming from a private demiplane anyway.
Would these work on the greatest monk in the realms:
GrandMaster Kane? |
Edited by - jordanz on 16 Sep 2012 05:52:59 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 06:13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Actually, Monks have always been extremely efficient against spellcasters, especially in 3E. Their special qualities all seemed aimed to counter them; stunning attacks (weak Fortitudes the arcane ones all have), evasion/improved evasion, still mind, all good saves, spell resistance, poison/disease immunity, fast speed (to move in on the spellcasters hiding in the back easier), high touch AC, etc.
In my games, I had a player with a Monk character specializing in pressure point attacks (took a lot of feats that relied on the use of Stunning Fist), with high Dex and Improved Initiative, and first thing he went for was a spellcasting enemy and he'd almost always have them paralyzed or stunned before the fight began. Of course, my spellcasting players would freak whenever monks were the enemy, heh heh.
What level were your players? Must have been early level.
I suspect it would be much harder for the Monk when he ran into wizards who have access to not only contingency teleports and pre warded stoneskin enchantments, but spells like flying and greater invisibility, and even more difficult for them when they run into Wizards who have quickened spells prepared which have no saving throws and ignore Spell resistance.
The first thing I always did before heading out was cast a chain contingency, rendering it nearly impossible to get the jump on me physically or harm me with projectiles in the first few rounds.
I am the only one of my 5 DnDers who has never needed a resurrect. Contingencies are what has kept my character alive for the last 4 years lol. That and playing a semi evil character. I play it soooo safe. The moment we started with the rule "only 1 resurrect" before you need to make a new character in this group, I knew how to play to survive. I don't always get the loot or kill the main enemy, but I never die. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 14:28:42
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| Levitate the monk off the ground, and keep him up in the air. That would neutralize a lot of abilities for a lot of characters. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 14:39:43
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Its imperitive for the wizard to win initiative. If they are surprised from level 15 and on contingencies will save their startegic advantage, but before that they need a well balanced party around them to prevent nasty surprises.
At 10th level:
Open with a Quickened True Strike + Ray of Exhaustion (even if saved the monk suffers fatigue), followed by an invisibilty and several summons over the next few rounds OR
Open with a Quickened Invisibility + Fly, followed with a (couple of) enervation(s) when the monk comes close and a bunch of save or suck spells after (Blindness, Hold Person, Slow)
Open with a Quickened Expeditious Retreat + Wall of Fire (no save fire damage), followed by Fire Shield and Stoneskin spells and a couple of strategic move actions through the wall while pelting the monk with cheap ray spells like scorching ray / melfs acid arrows and no save damage dealing spells like Ice Storm
Open with a Quickened Expeditious Retreat + Wall of Fire, followed by a Quickened Fox Cunning and Telekinesis. Grapple that monk with your mind and keep him in hazardous terrain or your wall of fire till he's medium/rare.
At 15th level:
Open with a Empowered Enervation, followed by a Quickened True Strike + Disintegrate. If the monk survived that, follow up with quickened mobility spells (fly, spiderclimb or blink) and either empowered and/or quickened Ice Storms OR
Open with a Quickened Dimensial Anchor + Forcecage, then cast a couple of dibilitating cloud spells (acid fog, mind fog, incindiary cloud)
Open with a readied Power Word Blind, followed by Tensers Transformation and quickened Haste. Grab a greatsword and slay that Monk, fighter style!
At 20th level:
Open with a Quickened Telekinesis + Reverse Gravity, grab that little sucker and slam him against the ground repeatedly
Open with a Shapechange, turn in a greater dragon, have a monk flavoured snack!
Open with a Quickened Invisibility + Gate, watch the show as a Balor carves his names into a monks corpse
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 14:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Levitate the monk off the ground, and keep him up in the air. That would neutralize a lot of abilities for a lot of characters.
The target must be willing to be affected by levitate.
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Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 15:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
NOTE: Response assumes third edition.
Shapechange (dire tortoise) + Forcecage (jail bar version) and/or Heightened Black Tentacles + True Strike + Metamagic Orb of Fire = dead monk.
Shaped Wall of Force + Cloudkill = dead level 10 monk (can't get out of the wall of force).
Gate + calling a creature that should have at minimum 34 HD if not 50 = dead monk (the monk is grossly outclassed).
For the particularly evil-minded:
Kidnap a commoner + screw with its mind so it loves the monk + cast Love's Pain = dead monk.
Monks are, mechanically, one of the absolute worst classes in third edition, while wizards are one of the best (also note that no-SR spells would be the order of the day here, and a wizard does have plenty of them). No Monk will be able to pin down a wizard who doesn't want to be pinned down. Even if by some act of random chance a monk happens to kill a wizard (the wizard would have to let him win, virtually), it was probably just a projected image of a simulacrum of an astral projection coming from a private demiplane anyway.
Would these work on the greatest monk in the realms:
GrandMaster Kane?
He isn't the greatest Monk in the Realms.
And yes, that is why we are looking for spells that monk Spell resistance and saving throws will not help. Most of these spells and effects will be automatic damage |
Edited by - Firestorm on 16 Sep 2012 16:36:06 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 16:04:50
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| Prismatic Spray might be useful, I would think Spell Resistance would apply to each ray that hits Monk, though that could be a judgement call that others might not make. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 16:40:41
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Having a scroll of extended, empowered melfs acid arrow (CL 15) deals a guaranteed 33, an average of 82, and maximum of 132 acid damage over 11 turns on a single succesful ranged touch attack for a mere 1875 gp. Two or three of these should prove enough.
A scroll of extended, maximized acid arrow (CL 15) deals a guaranteed 88 acid damage over 11 turns for a slightly more expensive 2250 gp. Again, for the mere price of 4500 gp, two scrolls of 'dissolve a monk' will solve all your mystical martial artisit problems. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 17:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Having a scroll of extended, empowered melfs acid arrow (CL 15) deals a guaranteed 33, an average of 82, and maximum of 132 acid damage over 11 turns on a single succesful ranged touch attack for a mere 1875 gp. Two or three of these should prove enough.
A scroll of extended, maximized acid arrow (CL 15) deals a guaranteed 88 acid damage over 11 turns for a slightly more expensive 2250 gp. Again, for the mere price of 4500 gp, two scrolls of 'dissolve a monk' will solve all your mystical martial artisit problems.
Damn, I do so love this. If you've got a rod allowing the low level spells to be maximized (14k gold) or empowered (9k gold) X times per day, it wouldn't be a major thing to extend your own. Given the cost of the rods, I'd never make the scrolls and simply recoup the initial loss over time (and also having greater flexibility). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 17:51:45
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Aye, a battlemage is wise to invest in several metamagic rods anyway. But its nice you pointed out that holding on to the gp for a bit will lend a higher level spellcaster that much more versatility and power.
And always remember to prepare an Oh, SHIT!-moment spell, like a Dimension Door (which is thankfully verbal only) when grappled. A silent Dimension Door is a great spell; very difficult to disrupt (no sign of spellcasting so no fear of counterspells, not stopped by silence or being pinned) and great for adding a little unpredictable mystery to your spellcaster. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 16 Sep 2012 17:52:42 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 21:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
He isn't the greatest Monk in the Realms.
And yes, that is why we are looking for spells that monk Spell resistance and saving throws will not help. Most of these spells and effects will be automatic damage
Who would you say is his superior? Also Kane's ability to phase in and out of the material would would be tough to contain, I would think.... |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 21:59:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
He isn't the greatest Monk in the Realms.
And yes, that is why we are looking for spells that monk Spell resistance and saving throws will not help. Most of these spells and effects will be automatic damage
Who would you say is his superior? Also Kane's ability to phase in and out of the material would would be tough to contain, I would think....
Probably several Monk NPC's you have never seen in a book. Just because RA Salvatore's writing style lends to the idea that characters are invincible does not make it so in realmspace. Grandmaster Kane is an NPC characters from the old bloodstone lands campaign and is pretty tough, but far from invincible.
As another poster once said...Measuring characters based on novels is a fruitless gesture
I would not hold my breath that Kane could take Malark, Who was not a grandmaster, but was a powerful Monk as well as an Archmage and was centuries old.
Turning Ethereal does not do a whole lot against mages. The relevant mages have permanent spell augmented vision and can see ethereal beings. That and a huge amount of spells can hit and contain ethereal creatures. To say nothing of the quickened time stop spell. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 16 Sep 2012 22:08:50 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 22:24:12
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My 11th level wizard could pretty much kill anything of comparable level with her quickened-true strike + sudden maximized disintegrate combination. Assay spell resistance as needed.
3.x wizards are GODS among PCs.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 01:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My 11th level wizard could pretty much kill anything of comparable level with her quickened-true strike + sudden maximized disintegrate combination. Assay spell resistance as needed.
3.x wizards are GODS among PCs.
Cheers
Agreed. Wizards had so many broken spells early on.
The Force orb spell in particular was possibly the most useful all situation spell of all time for 4th level. No Save, no Spell resistance, no Energy resistance, strike ethereal targets. Immediate automatic damage. Invest in metamagic feats or Rods and you scale up the damage a lot.
A wizard with a few Rogue levels could sneak up on a lot of people and kill them before they knew what hit them at level 3Rog/7Wiz
At level 15 that spell gets sick for damage. But by then, you do not care much about damage spells anymore. You have an arsenal of "save or suck" spells |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 02:24:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
He isn't the greatest Monk in the Realms.
And yes, that is why we are looking for spells that monk Spell resistance and saving throws will not help. Most of these spells and effects will be automatic damage
Who would you say is his superior? Also Kane's ability to phase in and out of the material would would be tough to contain, I would think....
Probably several Monk NPC's you have never seen in a book. Just because RA Salvatore's writing style lends to the idea that characters are invincible does not make it so in realmspace. Grandmaster Kane is an NPC characters from the old bloodstone lands campaign and is pretty tough, but far from invincible.
As another poster once said...Measuring characters based on novels is a fruitless gesture
I would not hold my breath that Kane could take Malark, Who was not a grandmaster, but was a powerful Monk as well as an Archmage and was centuries old.
Turning Ethereal does not do a whole lot against mages. The relevant mages have permanent spell augmented vision and can see ethereal beings. That and a huge amount of spells can hit and contain ethereal creatures. To say nothing of the quickened time stop spell.
Points taken , Malark I forgot about him....although I think Kane could beat him.
I'm not sure but perhaps Kane can phase to other planes besides the ethereal. Some of those spells are ineffective versus someone on the Astral plane... |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 02:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
He isn't the greatest Monk in the Realms.
And yes, that is why we are looking for spells that monk Spell resistance and saving throws will not help. Most of these spells and effects will be automatic damage
Who would you say is his superior? Also Kane's ability to phase in and out of the material would would be tough to contain, I would think....
Probably several Monk NPC's you have never seen in a book. Just because RA Salvatore's writing style lends to the idea that characters are invincible does not make it so in realmspace. Grandmaster Kane is an NPC characters from the old bloodstone lands campaign and is pretty tough, but far from invincible.
As another poster once said...Measuring characters based on novels is a fruitless gesture
I would not hold my breath that Kane could take Malark, Who was not a grandmaster, but was a powerful Monk as well as an Archmage and was centuries old.
Turning Ethereal does not do a whole lot against mages. The relevant mages have permanent spell augmented vision and can see ethereal beings. That and a huge amount of spells can hit and contain ethereal creatures. To say nothing of the quickened time stop spell.
Points taken , Malark I forgot about him....although I think Kane could beat him.
I'm not sure but perhaps Kane can phase to other planes besides the ethereal. Some of those spells are ineffective versus someone on the Astral plane...
Doubt it. Moreso because Kane would be at a big handicap than because of Malark's abilities. Malark was not the highest level Monk, but he was very effective. Whatever his Monk level was, he was an Archmage on top of later on. That means at least 13 levels in Wizard or 14 in Sorcerer. Malark might not be Kane's equal in Martial prowess, but his Monk levels would give him a pretty good insight as to what to expect from other Monks. Enough for him to use his spellcraft to more than even the odds. Assuming he did not
I am not sure why he would "phase to other planes than Ethereal". Nothing about that in any handbooks.
Edit. not sure why the heck the text size and color changed. I did not hit anything |
Edited by - Firestorm on 17 Sep 2012 02:51:26 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 07:49:53
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[quote]Originally posted by Firestorm
I agree he's probably not the greatest monk in the realms, but he can do ranged quivering palm, thanks to a magical item he carries. So, the wizard needs to get the drop on anyone using that cheet. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
[quote]Originally posted by Firestorm
I agree he's probably not the greatest monk in the realms, but he can do ranged quivering palm, thanks to a magical item he carries. So, the wizard needs to get the drop on anyone using that cheet.
The attack range of quivering palm is not stated in any sourcebook I have seen. It is listed as a supernatural ability and as a blow.
Truthfully, it is probably just a mistake in writing, which happens. |
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Most effective spells against high level Monks
