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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:15:35
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OK, I know that he is a talented writer. Some of his stories are page-turners.
What keeps you entertained?
1 Is it the personality of the GOOD drow opposed to the evil world around? Do you find Drizzt interesting?
2 Or is it the style of writing? Would you rather read a Salvatore FR book not related to Drizzt stories or his new story about Drizzt?
I've seen people complaining about Drizzt's personality yet reading the new books about him...
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:06:59
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Honestly, I preferred Bruenor to Drizzt ever since the beginning. While reading The Crystal Shard as a young teenager back in 1988, I got the initial impression that Drizzt was supposed to be the tragic, sensitive type that some women swoon for, and Wulfgar was supposed to be the muscle-bound jock that others go for. I couldn't identify with or relate to either, at the time. But I've always admired tough, tell-it-like-it-is-even-if-it-pisses-others-off sort, so Bruenor appealed to me from the first scene. He's what kept me coming back for more, book after book, year after year. I miss the old bloke terribly. 
Drizzt is a great character, though--don't get me wrong. He grew on me. I resented the fact that I thought he was the obvious star, while Bruenor was just a supporting co-star. But I still liked Drizzt, anyway, despite that jealousy.
There is something extremely enticing about twin scimitars whipping to-and-fro, slicing viciously, rather than smashing with blunt force. It's an illustration of precision versus brutality. Recall any paper cut you've ever had, and magnify that a whole bunch, and it makes a person a little squeamish to imagine being on the receiving end! 
Bob did a good thing by including the Drizzt Diaries in his books; I enjoy reading direct expressions of his lead hero's opinions and thoughts.
But there was a time when they got to be a bit repetitive. Drizzt was stuck in a loop of unjustified guilt and worry about racial conflict if he ever had children with Catti-brie, and it got to be annoying. I read those particular books in short order, years after they were originally published, so I got through the annoying phase fairly quickly. But I have to think that those readers who experienced that loop of journal lamentations in real time, with one book per year, and the obvious year-long wait in between, had a particularly hard time putting up with it all. Drizzt got a reputation for being an emo, whiny, navel-gazer.
Some of that would've been perfectly fine to include in the novels, to show that Drizzt's mind wandered freely in all sorts of directions. But when Bob kept harping on the same points across multiple novels, in multiple mini-series, it seemed unnecessarily repetitive and uninspired. I think that had a lot to do with the haters, over the years.
From there, they started nitpicking the books to death, and attributed them with all sorts of sins, and made Bob out to be a devil and a hack. 
One of the worst things people have accused Drizzt of is being static and not developing as a character. They say he's a near-perfect paladin drow, and that limits what Bob can do with him to make him interesting.
But I've gone back and re-read the books, and I just don't see it. Drizzt has high ideals, for sure, but he hasn't always lived up to them. More importantly, he has had a hard time putting his trust in those around him, and struggled with an instinctive need to take the weight of the world on his own narrow shoulders. If you go back and read the saga with that in mind, you should be able to see that he has actually developed quite a bit in that regard.
And just when Drizzt thought he had finally figured it all out, and truly settled down and become happily domesticated and integrated into an extended family, the Spellplague had to hit, and Bob had to break up the band.
Drizzt is still reeling from that, and somewhat recklessly hanging out with a new crowd, now.
I am not blind to the legit faults of Bob's Drizzt stories. But I remain a fan of them because this heroic character has shown tremendous development over the years, despite what the haters say, and I find that I do relate to him now more often than I don't.
That is to say, considering that he's not a crusty, axe-slinging stout folk king. 
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot, but I've tried some of Bob's other non-Drizzt stories. "The Sellswords" was pretty good, because it featured Entreri and Jarlaxle, who are intriguing not-so-goodly fellows. But for the most part, I haven't been hooked in by any of Bob's other stuff like I have been by the Drizzt books. A big part of that is nostalgia: I got started with The Crystal Shard at age 13, and all of these Drizzt books hearken back to that time, for me. Spin-offs with other characters lose that, and I guess I'm just not at a place in my life now to start fresh with someone new. (Maybe it's laziness, too?  ) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 08 Sep 2012 04:24:42 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
OK, I know that he is a talented writer. Some of his stories are page-turners.
What keeps you entertained?
1 Is it the personality of the GOOD drow opposed to the evil world around? Do you find Drizzt interesting?
2 Or is it the style of writing? Would you rather read a Salvatore FR book not related to Drizzt stories or his new story about Drizzt?
I've seen people complaining about Drizzt's personality yet reading the new books about him...
It's the Realms. I read just about every Realms novel that they produce. Some I like, some I don't. But it never stops me from buying them. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:24:28
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1. I liked Guen, Regis, Bruenor...so to read about them I had to keep reading about Drizzt. Whom I grew to enjoy...until the weight of the journal entries crushed me. But I still read on, hoping for a return to lory so to speak....then came Obould...and I cashed in my chips.
2. I'd love to read a Bob book about"new" characters, his writing stle is very engaging. I really liked the cleric quintet. Cadderly,Danica, the bouldeshuldrs bros....all great stuff. Even enjoyed the heck out of his Spearweilder's Tales......so I'd love to see Bo unleashed from Drizzt and Entreri....even Jarlaxle and start a new crew. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 09 Sep 2012 18:28:11 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 13:40:08
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I liked the earlier Drizzt books, especially the first trilogy (the one ending with Sojourn.) Some of the others were ok, and I loved Ghost King.
For me, though, I got turned off because after awhile the series seemed to become "how does Drizzt kill the unbeatable odds this time?" This is probably no fault of the author, but rather the reader's decision to read all of the Drizzt books in chronological order without stopping to read something else between novels.
I haven't been able to bring myself to read the books since Ghost King, though. I cried like a baby when Regis got it, and just can't face more yet. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 22:08:08
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Drizzts great and all, but I admit that I too liked Breunor the best. Bob may be the Father of All Drow, but I think he writes dwarves far better.
As for Drizzt, I identify with the cast out loner who finally finds a place to fit in. I like his honor (one reason I LOVE his dwarves). I like the way he writes sword fights. I like his relationship with Guen. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 22:21:57
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I would love more non-Drizzt realms novels by Salvatore, set in the Bloodstone Lands. Dragons, orcs, the undead all sound pretty intriguing. There's also the cell of Bregan D'aerthe that should still be in the area. The Sellswords Trilogy and Spine of the World are excellent entries in his Realms collection. I would recommend the Sellswords to a Salvatore newbie, actually. The story feels complete, as opposed to Drizzt, which does wrap up, but still feels like it could continue on.
I began reading Drizzt in the summer of 2009. I was in the thick of my college career, majoring in biology. It was tough; that fall I would be returning to Organic Chemistry. I did terribly in it during my first attempt the previous fall (2008). Drizzt's attitude--as well as that of the Companions (plus Elbryan and company; I was reading Corona alongside Drizzt)--inspired me to give the course my all. I made it out with B's in each, and have been hitting 4.0's in each subsequent semester.
Now, I'm waiting to see if Bob does anything with the "is Drizzt in Lolth's favor" plotline that appeared briefly in the Hunter's Blades. I actually hope he'll make the following novels more consistent with Gauntlgrym. Drizzt developed really nicely there.
If anyone is curious about what Bob's 2-ED monk novel might have been, I suggest you look into Transcendance. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
Edited by - Entromancer on 08 Sep 2012 22:26:55 |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 10:17:34
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| Entreri keeps me coming back at this point. Despite how much I wanted him killed off in this last book, I absolutely love that character and really just keep reading the books for him. I've been pretty sick of Drizzt since somewhere around the Orc king, but I'll read all the other ones that Entreri doesn't appear in because I'm OCD like that and a bit of a completist by nature. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 18:00:45
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I don't read Salvatore's novels just because of Drizzt. I'd actually like it if he wrote novels with other characters. I loved the Cleric's Quintet and the Sellswords trilogy. The Spine of the World was great too.
That's not to say that I don't want more Drizzt books, because I really do, I'd just like to see authors (not just Salvatore) developing more characters. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 18:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Entreri keeps me coming back at this point. Despite how much I wanted him killed off in this last book, I absolutely love that character and really just keep reading the books for him. I've been pretty sick of Drizzt since somewhere around the Orc king, but I'll read all the other ones that Entreri doesn't appear in because I'm OCD like that and a bit of a completist by nature.
I wouldn't mins reading more about Entreri except for one thing.....I fear he will be redeemed. I think he's interesting without it......surely in the forgotten realms, a character can just be a bad guy and not evolve to "good" |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:48:37
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I don't really like Drizzt himself. I love the side characters. Particularly Regis, Cadderly, Kimmuriel, Robillard and the occasional chosen who show up like Dove or Alustriel or Khelben.
Drizzt is somewhat annoying. Bob's writing style is great for me, although I confess to skipping some of the long combat scenes until the outcome is decided. He writes it well, I just don't get interested in descriptions of swordplay. I'm weird that way. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 00:06:46
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Reading the Drizzt books got me started on my Realms quest, but now whenever I meet someone who has only read the Drizzt books, I encourage them to read other Realms books. I used to be a huge Drizzt fan, and I still love him, but after Hunters' Blades trilogy, the story started going downhill. I keep reading the books because I want to know what happens, but the Drizzt novels always seemed...a part from the rest of the events of the Realms to me, and some the contents in the book contradict what I have read in other FR novels. It seems like whenever Bob DOES try and put big name events in the D books, it's a fail (ex Spellplague. Let's just zap Catti because she uses magic!) Gauntlgrym was a true let down, and while Neverwinter and Charon's Claw (which I haven't finished yet. I've been distracted by other FR books) were better, they are still not as good as the books pre-Hunters Blades. And the prologue of the Orc King, which was set in 1479…what the heck? The elves in that scene, such as Hralien, have not been mentioned since that book, and with the way events are going, I don’t see how that is scene is possible, though CC is set in 1471, so I guess there is room *shrugs*. We’ll see how this works out with the Sundering.
I’ve always loved his journal entries, but in Neverwinter, Drizzt talks about how he is trying to move on and to live as an elf in the way Innovondil (sp?) taught him, and he mentions elves do not mate for life, which again, contradicts other things I’ve read (see Evermeet and Last Mythal). It feels like Salvatore is getting tired of writing about Drizzt, and just keeps doing it because fans and WotC demand it. But I still love him.
I liked the Sellswords trilogy, at least the second and third ones. Outside of FR, I liked the Spear Wielders trilogy, but didn’t care much for his Demon Wars novels. I kind of feel bad about that because Bob has said he sees Corona as his Middle Earth and Shannara.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 00:48:25
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| The Hunter's Blade trilogy really turned me off of Drizzt and the crew. Everything has gotten way too repetitive for me to be able to pick up a Drizzt book for awhile. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Spencer
Acolyte
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 01:50:18
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R.A. Salvatore is the only FR author who writes extensively about drow and drow organizations.
If I want to follow the story of Bregan D'aerthe, Gromph, Menzoberranzan, Valas, Kimmuriel, and so on, I need to pick up his books.
I deeply wish that one day FR authors will share their worlds and characters with each other.
Imagine Elminster meeting Gromph, Valas working with Aoth, Cormyr hiring Bregan D'aerthe, or Cale adventuring with Athrogate. It would unify the books and make the FR so much more fluid and interesting. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 02:18:32
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| True, and Salvatore did "present" the WotSQ, even though he didn't actually write it. I don't know how much control he really had over the series. Lisa Smedman and Elaine Cunningham also did a good job with drow. I'd love more stories about Valas :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
after Hunters' Blades trilogy, the story started going downhill.
That's the repetitive phase I was talking about.
But I rationalize it as evidence that Drizzt still hadn't really committed to settling down and fully trusting family and friends, yet. He was still just going through the motions. As he contemplated married life with Cat, he kept askign the same old questions, and stalling over the same old answers.
At this point, he's a guy afraid of commitment. Is that anything surprising? And since he can live for centuries, he is in absolutely no rush to change, either. There's no biological clock to pressure him into sucking up that fear.
I hated that Obould basically won, in this series. I mean, I really hated it.
But it was good to see the Companions didn't clearly win.
For all the criticism and hate of Drizzt being a perfect paladin, he wasn't perfect here. And for all the talk of the Companions easily beating any and all comers, they didn't beat this one.
This mini-series marked major changes in the story. Drizzt drummed a familiar cadence in his diaries, but his world was changing all around him, anyway.
quote:
the Drizzt novels always seemed...a part from the rest of the events of the Realms to me/quote]
Well, yeah, ever since the very beginning, Bob has basically avoided the rest of the Realms and its goings-on. He's focused on the characters, and not on interconnectedness with the rest of the world.
When he has touched on elements from the great beyond, he's generally been lumped over the head with it by fans of other writers who specialize in those elements.
And so, he has generally remained isolated, minding his own business.
What was he supposed to do? Foist his uber-popular character into every other authors' corner of the sandbox? Or just flirt around the edges thereof, and then go back to his corner?
Bah! Can't win for losing!
and some the contents in the book contradict what I have read in other FR novels.
quote:
It seems like whenever Bob DOES try and put big name events in the D books, it's a fail (ex Spellplague. Let's just zap Catti because she uses magic!)
Again, it seems like a bias to me. If he keeps 'em alive and happy, he's being self-indulgent and treating his characters like perfect superheroes.
If he whacks her, it gets scoffed at as hollow and cheap and a fail.
That makes it sound like the deck is stacked against him, no matter what.
quote:
Gauntlgrym was a true let down
Why? Bruenor found his Gauntlgrym; he achieved his last big goal.
And even when he died, he got to remain with his daughter and two of his best friends.
Drizzt is being recognized by other drow as an inspiration. He's not just a solitary rogue being ignored by his own kind.
Jarlaxle seems to be evolving into something of a goodly character.
And Entreri returned.
Where's the letdown in that?
quote:
And the prologue of the Orc King, which was set in 1479…what the heck? The elves in that scene, such as Hralien, have not been mentioned since that book, and with the way events are going, I don’t see how that is scene is possible, though CC is set in 1471, so I guess there is room *shrugs*. We’ll see how this works out with the Sundering.
I don't have CC yet, but the Amazon.com online copy of the Prologue is dated 1463 DR--not 1471.
And the Prologue to TOK takes place a century after the signing of the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge, which was set in spring of 1372 DR. This is a vague indicator that TOK's could possibly be set around 1472 DR. Given that King Obould "VI"/XVI is described as still being favorable toward the goodly allies of the Silver Marches in the Prologue, and even as signing off on an interracial marriage between an orc and a human; but King Obould XVII is described as being the leader of a kingdom that is an enemy of Luruar in 1479 DR (FRCG {4E}); this would seem to indicate that the TOK Prologue probably took place a while before the FRCG.
And in Neverwinter, there is a blurb about the sword Khazid'hea being with Tos'un, who is still with the elves in the Moonwood (1463 DR).
So there's still definitely some time for Bob to squeeze some stuff in, here.
quote:
I’ve always loved his journal entries, but in Neverwinter, Drizzt talks about how he is trying to move on[. ...] It feels like Salvatore is getting tired of writing about Drizzt, and just keeps doing it because fans and WotC demand it.
The journal entry along those lines that really sticks out with me is one in Gauntlgrym, in which Drizzt says that he had been unwilling to move on, and Bruenor's insistence that they keep on looking for the dwarven city was just an excuse for hanging on. But he claimed that he was finally ready to put them all behind him, and to move on.
I took this as maybe being an admission from Bob that over the last few mini-series, he, as a writer, had not been willing to let go of the other Companions. This Iruladoon realm is vague and suspicious, but it sounds like a perfect example of an artificial construct for a reluctant writer. But in this diary entry, Bob sounded like he was saying that he was finally ready to let all of that go, and continue forward, without them.
I don't know that that's true. But that's how I read it. It sounds Bob is trying to psyche himself up, as much as it does Drizzt.
[quote]some the contents in the book contradict what I have read in other FR novels. [...] to live as an elf in the way Innovondil (sp?) taught him, and he mentions elves do not mate for life, which again, contradicts other things I’ve read (see Evermeet and Last Mythal).
I haven't read those. But consider the description of moon elves in Races of Faerûn, which calls them impulsive, nomadic, unwilling to settle down, unusually accommodating of humans, wanderers, and adventurers who want to do everything possible in their long lives. They seem to prefer to multiclass, instead of focusing on just one discipline. Diversity is highly celebrated amongst their kind.
That sure does make it sound like moon elves, at least, would rarely mate for life, but would want to mix it up, for the variety, and the adventure, and the excitement of new opportunities.
Part of the reason why Innovindil did not mate for life was because she appeared to have a special affinity for human males, who did not live long compared to her. She was forced to either remain a widow, or find new loves. And with her predilection for human men, that meant a revolving door of lovers, rather than just one. So we have to consider the source of this information that Drizzt was receiving.
At any rate, is it possible that Innovindil was mischaracterizing the moon elf perspective as being the elven perspective as a whole, simply out of personal bias? I mean, elves call their race "the people", and non-elves "non-people", so their entire race seems to be pretty biased. Why wouldn't individual subraces be, likewise?
Not jumping on you, CD. Just responding. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:58:44
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You make some valid points, BEAST, ones I necessarily thought of. I did not know Bob tried to avoid major events in the Realms, and I wasn’t implying he should address ALL of them. I guess he’s been doing what the Sundering is working towards: focusing on the lives of the characters rather than big events. But I personally LIKED the books about the big events, and the Drizzt books just seemed isolated to me the more I read other FR books. There is a lot people who only read the Drizzt books and thus wouldn’t know other things about the Realms. I am not trying to smash Bob, I just think the Drizzt books have gone downhill, which saddens me because I love Drizzt. He got me started on my Realms craze.
Was it 1463? I thought it was ’79. My mistake. I could go get OK, but I’m too lazy right now lol. But either way, I’d like Bob to address that prologue a little more. I wouldn’t mind hearing more about Tos’un either. I wonder what he’s been up to. I guess Drizzt was more of a letdown in Guantlgrym than the book itself. I understand how deeply the loss of Catti affected him, but he just wasn’t the Drizzt I loved. He’d changed a lot, and since he already had his “fall to darkness” in HBT, I didn’t think he needed another one. Yes, there were good points in the novel, such as Jarlaxle, and Valas Hune! I’d like to see more of him. I got a kick out of him stealing Bruenor’s maps XD And yes, Bruenor got his wish, and his soul did end up in a good place, even if it wasn’t Moradin’s Hall like he’d been expected. I don’t know, the novel just wasn’t the same to me.
Evermeet and the Last Mythal are good, I recommend them. In LM, it is said when elves want to marry, they have a 20 year betrothal to make sure that person is “the one” (though there was a couple in there who married within a year or two of meeting each other). And yes, Races of the Wild did say that, but it also said that elves hold love in high esteem, and while they may have dalliances before finding their soulmate, it does not mean they don’t eventually find a mate for life. It also says that elves may separate from their spouse for a time by adventuring for a few years, and then returning. That gives them a “break” but does not mean they call of the relationship. If an elf takes a human lover, that is one thing, because yes, they will outlive them. And if both lovers are elves and one days, the one remaining is encouraged to find another, and will be with both again in Arvandor. This too was addressed in LM. I think mating for life is hinted at in RotAW, though I’ll confess I have not finished the trilogy (I’m reading several FR books at once, and in some cases, I’m behind). But these are all just my opinions on what I’ve read ^^;
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 14:45:06
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| I have mixed feelings about Robert. Sometimes I really liked his novels, are parts of them, and sometimes not. I have had more problems with the books leading up to the Orc King, then the Orc King itself; particularly the thousand orcs. It saddens me just a little to suddenly learn that they turned the orcs back to being the bad guys, but that’s really not that surprising, A.H. and all. He has gone more out of his way to make sure that disabled individuals have access to his works than any other Realms writer. I’ll get to read Gontligrum soon and Never Winter some time next year. For that he has my most sincere thanks, he’s been in many ways my guide to the Realms, as all of Ed’s works that I’ve read are way in the past, and I’ve only been able to read one of Elaine’s books. So in short, that’s the main reason why I read Robert’s works; it’s what I can easily get my hands on. There are other secondary reasons of course, but when we get right down to it, that’s the main one. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 15:24:03
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@CorellonsDevout
Even in The Last Mythal you have a clear example of two elves that didn't end up together for life. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 16:13:23
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| Ugh well spotted all on the orcs. 4 books in a row about orcs was WAYYYYYYYYYY too much. I'm not sure who dictated that we should have 4 books in a row about Obould and the orc hordes, but whoever did it was stupid. It turned a lot of fans off from what I've seen. I liked Pirate King, but I know it wasn't that popular (allegory of Iraq war theories)-- but thankfully Ghost King was amazing. |
Edited by - Seravin on 10 Sep 2012 19:52:29 |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 17:30:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Entreri keeps me coming back at this point. Despite how much I wanted him killed off in this last book, I absolutely love that character and really just keep reading the books for him. I've been pretty sick of Drizzt since somewhere around the Orc king, but I'll read all the other ones that Entreri doesn't appear in because I'm OCD like that and a bit of a completist by nature.
I wouldn't mins reading more about Entreri except for one thing.....I fear he will be redeemed. I think he's interesting without it......surely in the forgotten realms, a character can just be a bad guy and not evolve to "good"
Which is why I wanted him killed off. I realize I'm the only one, and I'm bordering on beating that point into the ground now cos this is about the third of fourth time I've mentioned it, but I definetly fear the whole redemption thing and fear seeing him turned into a character I no longer care about. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 17:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
@CorellonsDevout
Even in The Last Mythal you have a clear example of two elves that didn't end up together for life.
Ilsevele and Araevin? Yes, because it didn't work out and Starbow (who I loved), came imto the picture. That's why I said there is a 20 year betrohal, to make sure it will work out. Araevin's lifestyle was not what Ilsevele wanted. Starbow's former wife remarried because Starbow died, and Starbow's wife (I forgot her name), remarried, and then the three of them were together in Arvandor, before Starbow was brought back. Ilsevele and Starbow married soon after meeting, which, yes, is uncommon for elves. But the fact that they marry shows they do in fact mate for life, because it's not like they'd call the marriage off after 100 years.
Were you referring to someone different?
And in Evermeet, Zaor and Amarulial (sorry, I forgot how to spell her name), would likely have been mated for life if he hadn't died. Do elves marry the first person they fall in love with? Maybe, maybe not. They are slower (most of the time), than humans to marry and mate for life, but it doesn't mean they -don't-.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 18:21:01
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@CorellonsDevout
But that's just the thing. You're assuming that Innovindil meant that elves didn't "marry" when she was actually talking about how elves deal with people in their long lives dieing. Don't really see the contradiction you mentioned. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 18:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
@CorellonsDevout
But that's just the thing. You're assuming that Innovindil meant that elves didn't "marry" when she was actually talking about how elves deal with people in their long lives dieing. Don't really see the contradiction you mentioned.
All right, so maybe marry was the wrong word to use. Perhaps it was "mate". In his journal entry, Drizzt had said elves rarely mate for life, because it would be an anchor after a 100 years or so. I realize that isn't word for word what was said. What I mean is if both partners remain alive til the end of their days (and both partners are elves), it's not like they just "call it off" after a 100 years or so. Perhaps I am misreading it, but that is what it sounded like to me. If one partner is a human, that is a different story, because of course the elf is going to outlive the human (Drizzt probably would have felt better about Catti's death if she had died of old age). It is true that elves may have dalliances, and perhaps several lovers before "settling down", but it isn't necessarily rare. They may separate for a time, as a kind of absence makes the heart grow fonder type of deal. Maybe they never "marry", but it's not like they don't "mate" for life.
This is assuming a partner doesn't die. I understand that an elf may take another partner if their former dies (though some never do get another because they are too heartbroken). But to me, it sounded like the journal entry was saying "in general" that they don't mate for life, which is contradictory to other things I've read. This was the ontradiction I was referring to. And I know I'm not the only one who has interpreted the statement that way. Maybe it only was talking about "if a partner dies", but that's not what it sounded like to me. Yes, Drizzt was talking about trying to move on after Catti's death, but it sounded like he was saying "this is what elves do in general". I am sorry if I am not making sense, but that is the impression I got out of it, and that is the contradiction, based on other FR novels, that I've read.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 18:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
OK, I know that he is a talented writer. Some of his stories are page-turners.
What keeps you entertained?
1 Is it the personality of the GOOD drow opposed to the evil world around? Do you find Drizzt interesting?
2 Or is it the style of writing? Would you rather read a Salvatore FR book not related to Drizzt stories or his new story about Drizzt?
I've seen people complaining about Drizzt's personality yet reading the new books about him...
Salvatore have an excellent writing style,his work is not just about Drizzt, I enjoyed all non-Drizzt books so far.If I enjoy Bob´s novels it´s definitely not because of Drizzt´s good personality. In fact,Drizzt novels involving Bregan D'aerthe are my favorite ones. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2480 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Honestly, I preferred Bruenor to Drizzt ever since the beginning. While reading The Crystal Shard as a young teenager back in 1988, I got the initial impression that Drizzt was supposed to be the tragic, sensitive type that some women swoon for, and Wulfgar was supposed to be the muscle-bound jock that others go for. I couldn't identify with or relate to either, at the time. But I've always admired tough, tell-it-like-it-is-even-if-it-pisses-others-off sort, so Bruenor appealed to me from the first scene. He's what kept me coming back for more, book after book, year after year. I miss the old bloke terribly.
I also got an impression that for Icewind Dale books it was sketched this way... But then Salvatore turned out to be a good writer enough to slip out of that dead-end... and a shameless hack enough to slip into giving all fighters except the drow same "Arrgh, me would be a big dumb warrior jock!" speech pattern. 
Salvatore's books are all kind of like this, IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Now, I'm waiting to see if Bob does anything with the "is Drizzt in Lolth's favor" plotline that appeared briefly in the Hunter's Blades. I actually hope he'll make the following novels more consistent with Gauntlgrym. Drizzt developed really nicely there.
I read it more like "a deity can't willfully act against one's own portfolio" limitation, applied to a situation infinitely less "charged" than incidents like "Mystra vs. Karsus's Avatar" or "Ogma vs. Cyrinishad".
Moreover, in a bigger picture Drizzt is not entirely a liability for Lolth. Look:
He is a rebel serving a deity whom few drow would ever choose - this steals spotlights and thus, however little, indirectly undermines more dangerous work of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. He most likely would try to slaughter, at least, Vhaeraunites. His mere presence makes e.g. setting up anti-drow wards much less convenient - which leaves open some possibilities, desirable "just in case".
Now, we see Yvonnel Baenre (of all people!) distrusting her Spider Queen enough to throw the sacred city's resources into a thinly veiled hunt for Baenre's own loose end. How this problem isn't by far worse and more relevant than some lone mortal, who mostly hangs out on surface instead of subverting spider-loving drow down there?
The rest is "what the random drow would likely to theologize up from the given data" - and in this role makes perfect sense. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 17:11:49
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| The first realms books that i ever read were the Icewind dale trilogy and because of that Salvatore works have always had a soft spot in my heart. I admit that things were getting repetitive for a while but it really seems that the new books are going in a different direction and things are looking up. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I did not know Bob tried to avoid major events in the Realms, and I wasn’t implying he should address ALL of them. I guess he’s been doing what the Sundering is working towards: focusing on the lives of the characters rather than big events. But I personally LIKED the books about the big events, and the Drizzt books just seemed isolated to me the more I read other FR books. There is a lot people who only read the Drizzt books and thus wouldn’t know other things about the Realms.
I think a great deal of Bob's success comes straight from the fact that he focuses primarily on telling the character-driven tale that he wants to, without feeling hidebound to the established lore. Loremongers like Candlekeep scribes get irritated by that, but the flip side is that it makes his stories very approachable to new readers. He doesn't get himself bogged down by all the lore when writing, and he doesn't bog his readers down with all the lore, either. So there's a very practical benefit and rationale to it.
But yeah, he has a long history of avoiding any clear interactions with major events of the Realms at large. When I started my Drizzt chronology, I was able to collect notes that related all of the works within the Drizzt saga to one another quite easily, but it was difficult to find details that connected Bob's books to other major Realms events that have clearly established dates. It wasn't until Siege of Darkness, with the Time of Troubles, that Bob finally merged his Realms tales with everybody else's in such a way that his stories could finally be definitively dated. And then, it wasn't until That Curious Sword that he or his editors included a positive date in a story, itself (an Entreri & Jarlaxle story); and it wasn't until The Orc King that they finally included a positive date in a Drizzt book.
Needless to say, this has opened the door to a lot of confusion about the dates of his works!
quote:
But either way, I’d like Bob to address that prologue a little more.
Have no fear: he has told me that he is definitely mindful of it as he continues to write the latest Drizzt books. He and his editors are checking back to the TOK Prologue and Epilogue regularly to make sure that everything matches up. He even asked me just how much wiggle room he might have for something, and I pointed out how vague the wording is in the Prologue, so I guess that means plenty!
quote:
I wouldn’t mind hearing more about Tos’un either. I wonder what he’s been up to.
Well, according to TOK's Epilogue, he and Sinnafein have had two children together. So I guess he's been up to some boom-chicka-mow-wow.
Cha-cha-cha!
quote:
I guess Drizzt was more of a letdown in Guantlgrym than the book itself. I understand how deeply the loss of Catti affected him, but he just wasn’t the Drizzt I loved. He’d changed a lot, and since he already had his “fall to darkness” in HBT, I didn’t think he needed another one.
I'm afraid we fans at the RAS Forums might be somewhat to blaim for that. We've lamented the loss of the edge that Drizzt had in The Crystal Shard, where he gleefully taunted giants and a human barbarian king, as well as a minor wizard. He scolded young Wulfgar, and did not hold his tongue in the process. There was little handwringing concern for "what is the right thing?", and more decisiveness, which made Drizzt seem a little harder than he has come to be, over time.
Well, Bob has done some stuff to Drizzt that has made him harder and edgier, alright!
Sorry. Sue us!   |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 10:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I think a great deal of Bob's success comes straight from the fact that he focuses primarily on telling the character-driven tale that he wants to, without feeling hidebound to the established lore. Loremongers like Candlekeep scribes get irritated by that, but the flip side is that it makes his stories very approachable to new readers. He doesn't get himself bogged down by all the lore when writing, and he doesn't bog his readers down with all the lore, either. So there's a very practical benefit and rationale to it.
I'm guilty sometimes of forgetting that the reason they're totally enjoyable with no prior knowledge of the realms is the reason I became interested in reading realms fiction, now that I like to be bogged down with lore a la Mr. Schend's Blackstaff. But sometimes I do wish they were more like the dark elf trilogy, which I think i liked above most other Drizzt not only cos the story was so good, but because it painted the setting so well. Still, if as a non-gaming reader if I'd started with something super textbook-y, I'd have been turned off. Theres just no pleasing me sometimes. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I did not know Bob tried to avoid major events in the Realms, and I wasn’t implying he should address ALL of them. I guess he’s been doing what the Sundering is working towards: focusing on the lives of the characters rather than big events. But I personally LIKED the books about the big events, and the Drizzt books just seemed isolated to me the more I read other FR books. There is a lot people who only read the Drizzt books and thus wouldn’t know other things about the Realms.
I think a great deal of Bob's success comes straight from the fact that he focuses primarily on telling the character-driven tale that he wants to, without feeling hidebound to the established lore. Loremongers like Candlekeep scribes get irritated by that, but the flip side is that it makes his stories very approachable to new readers. He doesn't get himself bogged down by all the lore when writing, and he doesn't bog his readers down with all the lore, either. So there's a very practical benefit and rationale to it.
But yeah, he has a long history of avoiding any clear interactions with major events of the Realms at large. When I started my Drizzt chronology, I was able to collect notes that related all of the works within the Drizzt saga to one another quite easily, but it was difficult to find details that connected Bob's books to other major Realms events that have clearly established dates. It wasn't until Siege of Darkness, with the Time of Troubles, that Bob finally merged his Realms tales with everybody else's in such a way that his stories could finally be definitively dated. And then, it wasn't until That Curious Sword that he or his editors included a positive date in a story, itself (an Entreri & Jarlaxle story); and it wasn't until The Orc King that they finally included a positive date in a Drizzt book.
Needless to say, this has opened the door to a lot of confusion about the dates of his works!
quote:
But either way, I’d like Bob to address that prologue a little more.
Have no fear: he has told me that he is definitely mindful of it as he continues to write the latest Drizzt books. He and his editors are checking back to the TOK Prologue and Epilogue regularly to make sure that everything matches up. He even asked me just how much wiggle room he might have for something, and I pointed out how vague the wording is in the Prologue, so I guess that means plenty!
quote:
I wouldn’t mind hearing more about Tos’un either. I wonder what he’s been up to.
Well, according to TOK's Epilogue, he and Sinnafein have had two children together. So I guess he's been up to some boom-chicka-mow-wow.
Cha-cha-cha!
Ohh yeah. Sorry, I'll admit there are things I have forgotten about those books ^^; as long as it comes full circle, I suppose. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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A question for fans of Salvatore
