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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 22:51:11
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Hello.
To start, I'll premise that I've already said something like what I'm going to write here in the Menzo book thread, but I thought that maybe what I'm looking for would need its own topic.
So the issue is this: the above mentioned sourcebook was supposed to include material which would've brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back to the Realms, while giving a proper explanation to the ending of the LP trilogy. However, for reasons that I can only guess, such content (which was developed to the point of including a map and some art) didn't make the final cut of the book.
One of the authors suggested that people who would like to see the new lore released should let WotC know, because doing so could give it a chance to be published in the future as a DDI article or web enhancement. For this reason I've started a thread on their forums, explaining those that I believe to be valid reasons for that lore to be included in the Realms. So, If anyone wishes to see what was in store for Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord and feels like throwing in some support (which would surely be appreciated), the topic is here.
If I'm being annoying about this matter, just close or delete this. In that case you have my apologies: for some reason I feel very strongly about this issue, and I may actually result insistent because of it.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 16:00:47
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| I actually loved this idea of two of them returning as archfeys and their followers trying to get them into the godhood once again. The epic campaign ideas are limitless with this stuff. I really love it. It is a shame this content was cut from the book. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 17:01:25
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I wonder why they removed it. I don't think it is because of the book size, since it is only 120-ish pages. Besides, it presents Menzo as a setting by itself rather than only as the FR drow city, so I doubt that the reason is the siblings having little business there (which would be kinda of true in the Realms Menzo) because -as you say- they would add much depth and possibilities to any drow campaign.
We'll see whether they'll let these characters get wasted, or use the material that they already have and release it in form of article. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 17:16:45
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With the internet, 'page count' really isn't an excuse anymore. A book can be twice (or more) its size by the time you are done with web-enhancments.
I really like the idea that in that game they merely sacrificed their godhood, and returned to their original, pre-deity status. It makes sense to me. Gambling your life is stupid, but godhood? Thats something you have an opportunity to earn back.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 19:18:01
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Exactly. Only in this way Eilistraee's supposed 'sacrifice' (which looked more like being murdered) could have a sense, and Vhaeraun could have some justice (since he was out at the beginning, and it was pretty much all he did, AFAIK).
If drow get somehow involved in my game -actually, if I get to run a game at all :( -, I'll definitely use this idea (it really turns canon that I despise into something I can like). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Oct 2012 19:18:38 |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 22:35:20
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| Actually if I ever play a game post-WOTSQ I would probably use this idea too :D |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 23:47:38
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| Excellent news. Consider the idea of depowered Eilistraee and Vhaeraun totally stolen! Them being mortals (albeit probably still very knowledgable, wise, charismatic and experienced ones) gives me an excuse to let the players meet them up close and personal! Love the surprise THAT'll cause amongst my players. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:41:50
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| I'd love to see this cut content somewhere as a web enhancement. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 18:03:02
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| Any updates on this? |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 18:54:50
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IIRC, Brian James stated that WotC isn't currently interested in Eilistraee, Vhaeraun or any other non-Lolthite drow (except Drizzt, but he appears to be dead too, unless that Sundering book brings him back).
Personally, I don't think they're going to develop the siblings' storyline ever (which is a shame, but w/e...). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 21:01:55
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| Eilistraee and Vhaeraun re very popular, so it would be a shame for Wizards not to continue their storyline, but it does seem like they won't. A lot of people were upset over the death of Eilistraee, myself included (I like Vhaeraun, too). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 21:40:05
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| Well not sure how popular, however a percentage of Drow fans clearly wanted something different then Lolth. For those that count beans it becomes a cost effective calculation. Sales need to exceed costs. This is not just cost of printing something, there is also costs design and story development, standing costs of continuity. SKR had mentioned that during 3rd Edition there was some desire to trim down number of deities, he also indicated that 4th trimmed them more then he envisioned. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 21:50:42
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They have the material: a fitting and reasonable way to let the siblings live in the new Realms and to add story hooks has already been written for the Menzo book. It was removed shortly before the release, however publishing it (as a DDI article, for example) would cost them nothing.
AFAIK, it's that whoever has the last word on this wants the drow to be 'ebil' Lolth's puppets and nothing else. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 May 2013 22:12:44 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 03:48:12
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If that DDI article gets published, please let me know
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:12:10
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| Yes, please do! |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 04:22:23
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| I wish there were more web enhancements of material they aren't ever going to publish :/ |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 01:39:52
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| Hopefully at GenCon, they will reveal whether these two deities get to return in the Sundering. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 01:56:13
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| As far as I understand, Wizards want to bring the drow to their (gygaxian, not realmsian) origins: a bunch of 'ebil' brainwashed people who do evil stuff w/o any compelling motivation. To me, this means that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun aren't likely to be even mentioned anywhere. I hope to be totally wrong about this. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 02:05:29
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Hmm. That seems the opposite of what I want out of drow. I mean. Don't get me wrong. I like evil drow, and I'm not a huge fan of drizzt (he's just never been that compelling to me). But some of my favorite novels have been twilight and shadows, and war of the spider queen. The Eilistraee followers are okay, but the Vhaeraun followers are very interesting and compelling, particularly in a lolth-driven world. And honestly, I enjoyed the Masked Lady plot Arc.
If I can have Vhaeraun and Eilistraee back in 5e, OR I can have the Masked Lady Eilistraee, as a foil to Lolth and her worshippers, I'll be happy with 5e FR Drow. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 02:18:00
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Personally, I like both of them for what they stand for on their own, even w/o taking in consideration their conflictual relation with Lolth. The fact that they add depth to a race with limited variety and the rebellion they inspire in the dark elves is -ofc- one of their defining traits, but not the only one.
We'll see what they will decide, but I'm not hyped at all atm. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jul 2013 02:19:09 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 02:52:54
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Hmm. Fair enough. I find I'm starting to be re-invigorated about D&D in general (after a year of avoiding medieval fantasy RPGs, and then a year of not gaming), and I'm mildly curious about 5e, and what they will do with the realms.
Last time I did any D&D gaming it was Pathfinder, and I find I'm starting to be rather enamored with Golarion. It's becoming what pre-4e Forgotten Realms was, and it has some things that it does better. Some of their countries are more interesting than some of the FR countries, which I never ran any games with, that I didn't have as much fun with. I miss The Sword-Coast, and the Faerunian Underdark, and Cormanthor, and the Dalelands, and a number of the Faerunian Races and gods when I play in Golarion though.
We'll see what 5e Realms brings. If I like it, I'll buy it. We'll see what 5e brings. If I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I'll stick with Pathfinder, and just convert over any Faerunian Material I want to use, from whichever edition it came from.
But at this point, I may be looking for ways to mash up Faerun and Golarion anyways. A deity level Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean are quite good, and I really like Cheliax, Varisia, The Pathfinder Society, and some of countries with closer parallels to real-world countries could be merged with their Faerunian counterparts. Osirian and Mulhorand could be combined, for instance, allowing me to use much material from both. Cheliax and Sembia could maybe be merged.
Hmm. This could be a fun little side-project which could result in a super-setting for me to use.
We shall see how 5e and 5e Realms strike me when they come out. If I feel similar about them as I did 2e and 3e, I will have wonderful collections of books to buy to add to my massive RPG book collection. If I feel like I did/do about 4e and 4e Realms, I will just continue to hunt down the remaining old books I want, and the pathfinder books I want.
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Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 14:52:21
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| On the idea of merging Golarion and Toril, I'd be careful of doing so. For instance, if you did link Osirian and Mulhorand... sure both are "Egypt" based ideas, but one is extremely god oriented and the other is extremely arcane oriented. If you did link the two, I'd recommend it be that the Osirians were say renegades... or maybe they were members of the Theurgist society who escaped to a new world. Along this similar idea though, Mulhorand of FR and Nuria Natal of Midgard are very similar culturally but different enough that its not a duplicate society, and the fact that both religions have their Egyptian deities in "mortal" form walking beside them opens up some interesting ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 15:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
<snip> But at this point, I may be looking for ways to mash up Faerun and Golarion anyways. A deity level Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean are quite good, and I really like Cheliax, Varisia, The Pathfinder Society, and some of countries with closer parallels to real-world countries could be merged with their Faerunian counterparts. Osirian and Mulhorand could be combined, for instance, allowing me to use much material from both. Cheliax and Sembia could maybe be merged.
Hmm. This could be a fun little side-project which could result in a super-setting for me to use.
I've done this already - I will try to have a piece of that map up later. There's a few places I still have to stick name-tags on.
Not Cheliax... Sembia and Druma... its a perfect fit. 
I've merged (a fallen) Cheliax with Thay (Cheliax was the empire that existed there before the rulers were overthrown by the Wizards).
Mulhorand is the 'old kingdom' and Osirion the 'new kingdom'. Picture Osirion being a mash-up of Osirion and Mulhorand, and the Mulhorand area being more like the Tomb Kings of Warhammer.
I've added other interesting bits from other settings as well; the main continent of Greyhawk (the Flaeness) lies to the west (in place of Anchorome'), Xendrik has taken the place of Katashaka, Halrua has become an nation compromised of Five large islands (each named after one of the Five Kingdoms of Eberron, including a destroyed one), I've dumped the Minrothad Guilds (Mystara) into the Inner Sea - a break-away from Sembia/Druma, combined (and moved) Luiren with The Five Shires (also from Mystara/OD&D), etc, etc...
I've also swapped the Swordcoast with the eastern shore of the Sea of Fallen Stars, putting ALL the interesting stuff (from BOTH settings) on one Inner Sea.
WE can do what official designers can't - beg, borrow, and steal from everywhere.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jul 2013 15:53:02 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 01:38:46
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| I likely won't be able to attend GenCon (I have no one to go with, and I don't really want to spend the money, though I'd love to have input), but I sincerely hope E and V make a comeback, even though I have heard WotC is not interested in going anywhere with them. Maybe if enough people vouch for their return? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 02:08:59
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I think that people at WotC already know that the siblings are popular and that the outcome of the LP books is widely disliked, as many have vouched for them, even if indirectly (actually even the authors of the Menzo book did...).
I wrote a letter to their customer service (I kinda doubt that they even bothered to pass it to whoever is going to decide what to do with drow in 5e, tho) and posted the thread mentioned in the OP, but tbh now I feel like that feedback was kind of pointless. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 08:37:14
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I suspect that with 5E, all the gods are on the table. Given that Eilistraee was created by Ed specifically for the Realms at the behest of WotC, it would be ashame to see her disappear from the firmament.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 11:23:38
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Yes, all the gods will be on the table, but from what I've understood it'll be in the sense that ''hey, you know what? We won't give any info about who's there and who's not. Sort it by yourself''. No thanks, I've already done that on my own, w/o asking anyone for the permission to do it (besides, what's the point of paying for lack of info? And there also are people who don't/can't play, or the ones who care about the setting itself, unrelatedly with the game).
Personally, I want to see how the story of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and all the dark elves who -in their own different ways- fight to set their people free continues, but I don't believe that WotC likes this idea of drow. I liked what the authors of the latest Menzoberranzan sourcebook did, and it grated my nerves to see that content thrown away. Instead we're still stuck with that nonsensical conclusion about ''the unwilling drow being cast down''....
PS: Weren't Eilistraee and Vhaeraun created by Ed under commission of TSR? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Jul 2013 11:33:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
O.O
That's almost ALL of the settings.
I don't want some of those. Mostly because my goal is to make use of all the books I already own, more so than have to go buy more books, but partly because I do really like Faerun and Golarion.
I like this Thay/Cheliax idea, though I'm not sure I want Cheliax to have fallen.
Hopefully, when I have more time, I will get back to that project - I have an entire history for it that blends it all together. As of right now, those 'other lands' (continents) are just points of reference, so I can borrow from them; I have no plans to send characters to any of them (but who knows).
Cheliax 'fell', in that its king was assassinated and the (Red) Wizards took over. However, I've swapped-out the tharchions with Chelaxians ones, so its more of an amalgam. Its right next to Varisia - which took the place of Aglarond. Varisia itself got slightly combined with the stuff from the Egg of Phoenix, so that the old Varisian Gov't was Empyrea, and Waterdeep is trying to turn the whole region into 'New Empyrea' (thats what I turned the Lord's Alliance into). That puts the forces of Waterdeep (a more expansionist Waterdeep) against the forces of Thay/Cheliax. The main area of contention (as of right now) are the Nentir & Bloodmoon Vales (so I can use all the modules from both those sub-settings). The lumber consortium is actually backed by Waterdeep interests, and they are trying to monopolize dark Wood (which the Thayans are fighting hard to prevent).
The campaign plays out more like choosing between 'the lesser of two evils', but because at its heart its still FR, its more like 50 different evils.
And if you think thats bad, you should see the mash-up in the east, where I combined Kara-Tur with Tian-Xia (with a bit of Rokugon and other stuff thrown into the mix). That area is more Tian-xia then K-T, though, and I had to split Tian Xia in half and then offset it to get it all to work. Shou-Lung is the empire that just fell (in the Golarion lore).
To bring this somewhat back on-topic: I use ALL the gods, including the full Drow pantheon. For instance, Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and is Pharasma's consort. I am not quite sure what I want to do with Lolth yet - maybe somehow combine her with Lamashtu (although its far from a perfect fit). My Drow are both the 'normal' kind, and the albino kind - the dark ones are the old-school super-evil drow, but are smaller in number to the albino drow, who aren't quite so evil, but are oppressed by the ruling Dark Drow. Most surface dwellers are only aware of the normal (dark) ones, because the others are almost never allowed to leave their cities (they are like serfs). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jul 2013 14:20:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
PS: Weren't Eilistraee and Vhaeraun created by Ed under commission of TSR?
Yup. They originally saw print in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, penned by Ed. It is, in my opinion, still the best sourcebook about drow that we've had.
It also gave us a drow character I'm still wanting to know more about, Susprina Arkenneld.
Also, that book gave me the last thing I needed for a particular drow NPC I was working on. If I ever get to DM, I will have much fun using him as a recurring villain. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hopefully, when I have more time, I will get back to that project - I have an entire history for it that blends it all together. As of right now, those 'other lands' (continents) are just points of reference, so I can borrow from them; I have no plans to send characters to any of them (but who knows).
Cheliax 'fell', in that its king was assassinated and the (Red) Wizards took over. However, I've swapped-out the tharchions with Chelaxians ones, so its more of an amalgam. Its right next to Varisia - which took the place of Aglarond. Varisia itself got slightly combined with the stuff from the Egg of Phoenix, so that the old Varisian Gov't was Empyrea, and Waterdeep is trying to turn the whole region into 'New Empyrea' (thats what I turned the Lord's Alliance into). That puts the forces of Waterdeep (a more expansionist Waterdeep) against the forces of Thay/Cheliax. The main area of contention (as of right now) are the Nentir & Bloodmoon Vales (so I can use all the modules from both those sub-settings). The lumber consortium is actually backed by Waterdeep interests, and they are trying to monopolize dark Wood (which the Thayans are fighting hard to prevent).
While I do like the idea of importing Cheliax (or at least its government structure) into the Realms, I have to wonder about one thing with this idea of yours: What is Waterdeep doing interfering with matters half a continent away from them? It'd make a lot more sense for Cormyr to be doing that, even though the distance still makes it a stretch... The Black Network would be a better candidate; they're a lot closer and have a history of interference.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To bring this somewhat back on-topic: I use ALL the gods, including the full Drow pantheon. For instance, Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and is Pharasma's consort. I am not quite sure what I want to do with Lolth yet - maybe somehow combine her with Lamashtu (although its far from a perfect fit). My Drow are both the 'normal' kind, and the albino kind - the dark ones are the old-school super-evil drow, but are smaller in number to the albino drow, who aren't quite so evil, but are oppressed by the ruling Dark Drow. Most surface dwellers are only aware of the normal (dark) ones, because the others are almost never allowed to leave their cities (they are like serfs).
I'm happy leaving the divine situation as it was in late 2E/early 3E. I'm no fan of the dead three, and I prefer my theory that Bane 2.0 is actually Iyachtu Xvim. I see no reason to bring back Leira or Ibrandul, either. I don't want Amaunator, and I so very strongly dislike the whole "rotating sun deity" idea, which I think causes more issues and questions than its worth. I do want the drow pantheon restored.
And I'm quite tempted, at least in my personal Realms, to bring in Cayden Cailean. He is my all-time fave concept for a fantasy deity. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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New lore about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun
