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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 17:47:09
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Hello
After reading DMShinobi's post I was wondering how do you deal with certian issues with DMing? The first and most obvious, and probally the most talked about is Power Play.
For those of us who Don't know Power Play is when you have a PC who uses the rules, and creates an Ultimate character, generally Power Players are mainly Hack n Slash players. I have always found one example of min, maxing, from an old player in a previous group of mine, he almost always played a paladin. With his request, backed by several others I alowed them to use a method for rolling up characters designed by him. This combined the now standard 4-dice roll, (Ahh 2nd Edition the days when you only got 3 dice and had to keep the lowest  ) and the Points shifting system in BG, i.e. ill take 5 points of intelligence and add them to Strength. Hmm, now i think about this, this system should be called the *Min Maxing Alternate Dice rolling system*.
Needless to say he was the person in the group who knew the rules the best. The player in question got his Paladin with stats a la Str 18/xx Dex 16-18 Con 18 Int 3 ( ) Wis 14(Min in those days for paladin i think) and Cha 17. His paladin was always a killer, bastard sword, Splint mail, helm, and large shield. The players first purchase after a adventure was the most expensive armour he could get.  Made my life hell so he did.
Any way that was in my first days of DMing, and I learnt my lesson. I was more thinking of Xp when I was writing this post. No matter what game you play you will always get a small amount of Min/Maxing, even if its not alot, I was wondering how do you, discourage this, and inaddition to this what rewards for good Rping, or Bright ideas ingame do you give? Also Tatics do you encourage them? I know they are good for making your players last longer but tend to be abit of a hack, and slasher idea.
A more pressing issue is those players who are mainly just there for the ride, I've met one or two in my time, they come along, have a laugh, and generally are nice people, but when it comes to game play they do nothing, including battles and Roleplaying. In battles they ask the others what to do and then do it. what do you do with them, and how do you encourage them to take part?
Sorry for taking up your valuable time- I'll post my solutions to these problems at a later date, I've not got enought time just now
Hanx
Elrond
A
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Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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DMShinobi
Acolyte
Austria
8 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 10:31:55
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well, its simple really, just put them up against monsters who cant be hacked and slashed...monsters who need tactics to be followed to be beat, such as hydras, flying monsters, psionic monsters, or any other "unconventional" monster. its always simple to slash your way through 10 orcs, but if you're facing an ice worm, which explodes on death dealing 20d6 (i think) damage to anyone within 100 ft, you have to think of ways to kill it from afar. or, for another example, a mindflayer, who would most certainly try to extract any melee combatants and/or charm them. especially use these tactics if the PCs are higher level...setting 1st lvl PCs against a mindflayer is a bad idea.
As for good ideas and good tactics, always reward with a little something. I used to have this barbarian whose intelligence was unfortunately low. The entire group used to make fun of him and call him a walking axe, so once when he came up with a brilliant plan and it worked, i allowed him to increase his intelligence score 2 points.
any other suggestions from other DMs?
DMShinobi |
Hey yo look ma! I'm a productive member of society, when I'm drunk I make noise but otherwise I live quietly. |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 21:54:38
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Yeah I'd say thats pretty much good advice DMShinobi saying that i always like hitting the players with non-combat quests, similar to the WFRP Shadows over Bogenhafen module, which in my honest opinion is one of the best modules ever! I'm thinking of writing an introduction adventure, set in the Realms, where a NPC wrongly accused of murder is going to be hung(this is unknown to the players), needless to say this has caused a rift in the town, the players either need to Prove the man innocent, or help keep order when the riots take place as the man is executed. I am thinking of setting this in a small community in the Realms, either in the dalelands, or in Naskel (Does anyone know if Naskel is Canon, or just a Bioware creation?). Any suggestions would be appreiciated.
To encourage RPing i like giving out Xp rewards for good Rping. A method i have found of doing this is assigning a value between 1 and 50 depending upon the amount of Role playing and multiplying this by the characters level, I don't know how effective this could be, any ideas?
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 22:43:56
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| To answer your question, Elrond, Nashkel is an actual town/city (w/e) in The Realms, and not just a bioware creation, though i may be mistaken... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Belfar
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 05:47:39
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| Well if you want to balance your ability point scores I would recommend the point system presented on page 20 of the 3.0 DM guide( sorry I can't think of the page for the 3.5 source book). It works very well and keeps one PC from becoming more powerful than another PC ability point wise. My group personally uses the highest point buy which is 32. Another way to prevent min maxing ablitlites is to place role playing restrictions. A character with 3 intelligence is going to barely have above animal instincts. So make the PC roleplay this. (such as when our below average intelligence half orc barbarian says Me Thudd, me smash.) Power playing is okay to a certain extent I think. You want the PCs to be powerful enough to survive but not so powerful as to never be challenged. |
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The Sharpblade of Amn
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 21:04:44
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Nashkel is on the map that came with the FRCS, but I don't know if its on there because of Baldur's Gate 1. Theres no description of the town in the book.
Most of the XP I give out is for role-play. I deal with a lot of court intrigue and stuff like that, so actually, the best player I have in the group is a 5th level expert |
"And lo, upon high there sat the dragon, and in between its scales, it burned with green fire. They called him greeny" |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 00:55:29
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Elrond,
I originally had some advice for you, but in the process of previewing and whatnot, I neglected to include my user name and password before posting (something I'm not entirely used to yet). My entire post was lost, and now I'm really annoyed. Maybe I'll post it again when I've cooled down.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 14:38:43
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Isn't it obvious? You, in this case, simply create a Monster that, for some reason or another, wants to annoy the group/paladin, but not really to eat/kill them/him, so it asks a ridiculously easy question, and if they/he answers correctly they/he gets to live. (The monster has to be able to kill them easily, but not nessecarily be intelligent  )
It then asks; "What is 4*2", the unprobably dumb paladin will answer 3, and be killed.
Ahhh... happy ending for everybody else. (They answered the question right, so they get to live)
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Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
Edited by - EcThelion on 30 Jan 2004 14:39:55 |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 17:01:29
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Yeah I have a powerplayer in my current group and have found several ways to keep him from hording all the xp and gold from the mosters. I constantly put them in situations where wit, and not sheer manpower(or in this case elf power)determines the outcomes of teh encounter.Quite simple really.
-The Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 18:15:02
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| How could a Mage powerplay? And how would one stop him? |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 22:42:15
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Allot of people have said, Hit the player with the biggest Nastiest monster available, I'm afraid I actually disagree. Doing just this only leads to nurture that which we are trying to stop. I feel that the power player will go away feeling very dissatisfied and resentful; this could promote the idea of Min/maxing an even better character. I like the idea about using Wits and Roleplay to give XP, Here the situation could quickly be changed to intriguing "who done it?" campaign, of course if this is based in a city, the law wont take to kindly to a bunch of adventurers 'dealing out' punishment there version of the law- the opponent would obviously have certain rights, i.e. trial. If the min/maxer stepped out of this law he would find him/herself in trouble indeed. Actually when I done this the guy stopped turning up, but this turned out better, the three remaining characters where able to explore the Role-playing aspect fully. There where games where we didn’t even touch an dice!
Mages are a hard class to prevent Min/Maxing up until now however I’ve never encountered one. I really think it would depend on how the mage acted, If he was very Flashy then I’d teach him what Flashy really means, but NOT by killing his character, rather publicly embarrassing him using another mage, this could also lead to a good plot twist, again the Law would prevent the Min/Maxer from doing too much about it. Of course when players start to rise in levels they tend to become a little more flashier, this could be used with any other character. As the swashbuckler… Honour demands retribution 
Hanx
Elrond
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Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 04:44:21
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| I always liked the almost guaranteed death scenarios. In these situation, the party is almost certain to die, unless some is either really smart, really lucky, or both. It tends to keep the party grounded. As it is, I am a proponent of giving the players a sporting chance to survive any encounter; they should never be deliberately and irrevocable lethal, unless the player want you to kill them all off. As a rule of thumb, I simply do not let overly powergaming types into my group. It can just be too much work to keep them in line at times. I do not really mind someone with a bit of powergamer in them (since I have a little in me yself), but full fledged powergamerz are nearly impossible to change, or even control much of the time. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 05:53:24
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Actually, I had a guy like that who used to play. He had every rulebook MEMORIZED. And he'd never accept that I, as the DM, had changed a rule. How dare me...
Anyway, I finally got tired of it. They were going to fight a dragon. Outside of the lair, I had them find small, wyrmling-like dragon scales. Inside the cave, the powergamer found a rod with a swirling red mist. He did few detect magicky type spells, and found that it was Rod of Red Dragon Control. What he didn't know was that those red scales were from the Great Black Wyrm's latest tribute... And, of course, dragons HATE those who keep those things, 
He learned his lesson, seeing as how I described his character's remains as half a corpse melted in a standing position to the cavern's floor. |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 06:42:03
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Clever Ice very clever. i mostly stick to the stuff elrond was talking about and make roleplaying and thinking a little more rewarding.
You could use THe reflex rule for those who are very unrulely out of the game and dont like listining to the DM.
any questions about the reflex rule just reply to me...
-Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 14:11:44
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Ok RougeAssassin your really got me wondering now. What exactly is this 'Reflex Rule'?
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 17:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
With his request, backed by several others I alowed them to use a method for rolling up characters designed by him. This combined the now standard 4-dice roll, (Ahh 2nd Edition the days when you only got 3 dice and had to keep the lowest ) and the Points shifting system in BG, i.e. ill take 5 points of intelligence and add them to Strength. Hmm, now i think about this, this system should be called the *Min Maxing Alternate Dice rolling system*.
Needless to say he was the person in the group who knew the rules the best. The player in question got his Paladin with stats a la Str 18/xx Dex 16-18 Con 18 Int 3 () Wis 14(Min in those days for paladin i think) and Cha 17. His paladin was always a killer, bastard sword, Splint mail, helm, and large shield. The players first purchase after a adventure was the most expensive armour he could get. Made my life hell so he did.
Well, the dice rolling thing was your own fault. Never let a player tell you how to run your game.
And an INT of 3?? What is this, Baldur's Gate? I would argue that a character with an INT of 3 wouldn't be able to learn and understand the ideals of a paladin.
quote:
Any way that was in my first days of DMing, and I learnt my lesson.
Hey, we've all been there. I remember my first days (well, years, actually) of DMing. I shake my head at the decisions I made then.
quote:
I was more thinking of Xp when I was writing this post. No matter what game you play you will always get a small amount of Min/Maxing, even if its not alot, I was wondering how do you, discourage this
Discourage? Why do that? If a player knows how to make the rules work, that player should be praised, not scolded. I have a power-gamer in my group (if that's the accepted, understood term, so be it. There are no power gamers in my campaigns because no one, no matter how good their character is, can anticipate what I'll throw at them). He plays an arcane trickster, and he loves using the greater invisibility/ranged touch spell/energy admixture/sneak attack combo. He deals upwards of 70+ damage with a sneak attack energy touch spell (lesser orbs, cold orb, etc.). He has evasion handy to avoid the spells of my enemy spellcasters and dragon breath, and he's always got the right spells cast on him. When the group is given the opportunity to purchase better equipment, he makes sure he has the best and most useful items for his character...
Does all that matter against a horrid wilting spell or a barrage of beholder rays? No.
In fact, I'll encourage PCs to take certain feats, levels, spells, equipment, etc. Why do I do this? Because I know what is in store for them, and they should be prepared accordingly. I'll make sure players are aware of the progression of feats, the stacking of spells and magical items, etc. I encourage the creation of the best possible PC for each player. I don't want duds, I want heroes!
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and inaddition to this what rewards for good Rping, or Bright ideas ingame do you give?
I usually give a bonus story award for completing the mission/quest, or for just surviving the day (especially after a large-scale battle). Good RPing and bright ideas are a-plenty enough to include a small bonus for each player.
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Also Tatics do you encourage them? I know they are good for making your players last longer but tend to be abit of a hack, and slasher idea.
I definitely suggest tactics round per round. We don't play with miniatures, so the PCs don't always know exactly where they're situated. I'll warn when hastily cast spells will hit PCs, I'll allow knowledge checks to determine weaknesses and resistances (to a point - after all the wizard is 19th level). Tactical suggestions are a must at my table.
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A more pressing issue is those players who are mainly just there for the ride, I've met one or two in my time, they come along, have a laugh, and generally are nice people, but when it comes to game play they do nothing, including battles and Roleplaying. In battles they ask the others what to do and then do it. what do you do with them, and how do you encourage them to take part?
Well, you can treat them as party cohorts or servants and just let them roll-play the game, or you can tailor the game to their interests and needs. It's like teaching a group of students. You have to make sure the game is valid and important for every player, or you'll lose a few. If you make that player an important part of your campaign's plot (make him/her the target of an assassination, make him/her a long-lost prince/princess, make him/her a vital part of the campaign), that player will be even more interested in participating.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 03 Feb 2004 17:50:24 |
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How do you Dm Yours?
