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I definitely would be interested in hearing your ideas. That's the whole point of this thread!

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Sure thing. Let’s see…

1) Mystra: She absolutely has to come back. I’m glad to hear that Ed’s working on it. My hope, though, would be for it to be the Midnight personality. I was a bit appalled by that plot point not just because they killed off Mystra, the flagship character of the setting, but that it was done in that manner. The whole scenario reeked of a bad Lifetime movie in which a man obsessed with a woman breaks into her home and murders her. It seems cheap and it made Mystra seem weak and pathetic as she was essentially butchered by her stalker. Mystra/Midnight coming back and paying Cyric back in kind would be nice (Though that doesn’t mean I want Cyric dead. I can’t stand the little turd but he still does make a pretty good setting villain). I'd like to see her rebuild Dweomerheart, reconstitute the Weave and either bring Azuth back along with her, or elevate a mortal to take his place as an Exarch in her service. Maybe Elminster, the Simbul, or even Alustriel can fill the role?

(That’s another one that gets me, killing Alustriel. She’s not a big time adventurer, but a city ruler. She’s about as innocuous an NPS as you can get, so I don’t see why they felt they had to kill her to appease Forgotten Realms haters.)

2) Helm: If you’re working on his return, then that’d be great, too. I look forward to seeing him take his place in Celestia in Torm’s service.

3) Nobanion: This is coming out of left field I know, but whatever happened to this guy? I was just reminded of him while writing the above. I wouldn’t mind seeing him also enter into Torm’s service and move to Celestia. He seems like he’d be a great fit there. The way I’d like to see the organization of Celestia is as follows: Torm, Bahamut, and Ilmater forming the Triad, with Torm (Greater God) as the top point and Bahamut and Ilmater (Gods) as the two bottom points, while Helm and Nobanion are the sword and standard of Torm.

Now if only Celestia wasn’t such a sausage fest. Damn that Siamorphe…

4) Lathander: Here’s why I think combining him with Amaunator is silly. The idea is that there’s a Sun God and he goes through different phases, and we’ve seen those phases being Dawn, Midday, and Dusk. And since Lathander and Amaunator didn’t coexist, then they must be the same, but in a different phase. The problem with that is that neither of them have ever been a God of Dusk. That was Myrkul, and he and Lathander coexisted for a long time just fine. The argument would make sense if he was all three, but he’s not. He’s two phases while some other guy was the third. So he bounces back and forth between God of Dawn and God of Midday? That doesn’t make much sense at all. On top of which they’re both completely different personalities. So in my opinion, Lathander should be brought back as a separate god. In addition…

5) Myrkul: Myrkul should be brought back, too. He’ll no longer be God of the Dead but he can still reclaim the rest of his Portfolios of Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He can also claim Velsharoon’s old Portfolios of Necromancy and Undeath now that that poor bastard’s bitten the dust. Myrkul’s an interesting personality and frankly I’ve missed him all these years and I’d love to see his triumphant return and have him build a new Castle of Bones somewhere out in the Astral Sea. I’m also linking him up to Lathander above because I think that they, along with Amaunator, can create an interesting dynamic. Sun gods have been done to death, and having a generic “sun god” for the setting isn’t doing the Forgotten Realms any favors, but if you were to have three sun gods, each of which represents a different phase of the sun, dawn, midday, and dusk? Think of what each means, and what each god would represent.

Lathander is the Dawnbringer, the sun that rises in the morning, which means that he represents new beginnings, a casting off of the past, and constant change and evolution. He’s the ever-changing universe and the newborn star blazing out in the black. Amaunator is the God of Midday, and represents stability, stagnancy, and the status quo. He’s a sun in the full power of its life, set in its ways. Myrkul is the Lord of Dusk and represents the forces of entropy, decay, and the end of all things. He’s the lifeless star within a universe which grows ever colder. Each of those, Dawn, Midday and Dusk represent something wholly different, and I think the Forgotten Realms could benefit from having a trio of gods who represent each and are constantly in opposition to each other because of their natures.

6) Mask: His return’s a must. And let him have the Portfolio of Intrigue, already. Given what I’ve read the past few days about the circumstances of his death, he definitely deserves it, especially since he’s much better at it than Cyric. Has Cyric ever gotten away with any of his intrigues? And should Myrkul be brought back I’m sure he’d be willing to let Mask have a piece of his domain where he can hang his hat in and be safe from both Cyric and Shar.

7) Bhaal: This one’s another personal wish of mine. I’ve always loved “the Dead Three”, and Bane’s already back, so how about giving Realms fans back the full set? Make him an Exarch at least in service to Myrkul if he ever comes back, or Bane.

8) Eilistraee & Vhaeraun: I understand the argument about wanting to get the Drow back to their roots, but the problem with that is that getting them back to their roots is also synonymous with making them a one-note caricature. Eliminating these two gods eliminated all the character growth which the Drow as a race had experienced. There’re plenty of ways to make the Drow more villainous, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that the variety of portrayals which they had should be obliterated. So personally I’d really like to see both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return.

Incidentally, isn’t 1484 The Year of the Awakened Sleepers? If one wants to claim that the ‘dead’ gods are sleeping, then that might be a good year to bring them back.

9) Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim: I’d like to see these go back to the way they were and with Manshoon at the helm. It’d be nice if Manshoon were to reassert control of the Zhentarim in a Godfather style St. Valentine’s Day Massacre scenario in which he eliminates all potential rivals to the Zhentarim and remakes them into the wizard led army/secret organization for advancing his interests and Zhentil Keep’s interests around the world, and uses them to retake and rebuild Zhentil Keep. An alliance between a rebuilt Zhentil Keep, the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr against Netheril would also be pretty nice. Like the Soviet Union in the Allies versus the Axis. Team up with an evil to fight against an even greater evil. That’d open up a ton of intrigue as they need Zhentil Keep, but at the same time they can’t trust them, particularly Manshoon.

10) Elturgard: Just a bugaboo I had after reading the book, but it’d be nice to see Elturgard explicitly stated as being dedicated to Amaunator. Torm doesn’t make sense at all given all the other circumstances of that country.

11) Halruaa & Lantan: Was there ever an explanation for why the highly magical nation of Halruaa was torched to the ground by the Spellplague while the highly magical nation of Netheril escaped its effects unscathed? Anyway…

I like the idea of the Halruaan’s rescuing the Lantanese and the two nations joining forces to found a new country. It’s possible that Halruaan skyships came across Lantan just as disaster was striking them and were able to rescue a large portion of their population. The alliance between the survivors of Halruaa and Lantan could also be the origin of Warforged in the Forgotten Realms. They would’ve needed an army to survive, and with their depleted populations, the only option they’d have would be to manufacture one. The Lantanese already sort of had this ability in 3E with the Techsmiths able to create Gondsmen. Combining their expertise with that of the incredible magical knowledge possessed by the Halruaan’s that should give them what they need to be able to come up with Warforged, which is what their standing army could currently consist of.

As for their current location, your guess is as good as mine. It’s been 100 years, though, so they still shouldn’t be wandering Faerun like refugees a la Battlestar Galactica. They should’ve already found somewhere to call home and already be settled there. After all, the ancestors of the Five Companies may not be the only Halruaan’s who escaped the devastation of Halruaa. To continue the Battlestar Galactica analogy, maybe the Five Companies were the Battlestar Pegasus equivalents while there were another group of Halruaan survivors who were the Battlestar Galactica and Colonial fleet equivalents, and they were the ones who saved the Lantanese and settled elsewhere?

And yes, I’d love to read a novel about that.

12) Mulhorand & Unther: Mulhorand was fantastic and characterful and I’m dumbfounded that the developers ever thought it’d be a good idea to get rid of it. It was also on the cusp of conflict with all its neighbors in 3E, including Thay, and that was suddenly swept away with the advent of 4E? Like the commenter on that video link I posted above said, the game opportunities not only narrowed as a result, but flattened as the conflict between Mulhorand and the Red Wizards never occurred with Mulhorand being whisked away while the Red Wizards were all turned into undead loyal to Szass Tam. As for what’s going on with Abeir, I have to be honest and say that I don’t particularly care. That’s a whole other campaign world, and as a fan of the Forgotten Realms, it’s Faerun and its immediate environs which interest me.

So in short, I’d like to see Mulhorand return, and the seeds of that possibility are right there in the 4E FRCG. Nezram the Worldwalker is a wizard who’s A) experienced at planar travel, B) loves his country, and C) hates the High Imaskari to pieces. It shouldn’t be too much trouble for him to be able to track down Abeir and what happened to Mulhorand and its people. So he has the ability to provide planar travel and can work the necessary magic to bring Mulhorand back. There’s also the Mulhorandi gods themselves, who’ve long shown an interest in looking after and protecting the Mulhorandi people. They’re not just going to take this disaster which has hit their people lying down, particularly if the Mulhorandi people want to go back home (and after being there for four thousand years, Toril is their home). Nevermind how the people might react once they find out that the Imaskari have moved into their lands (Like Nezram, they’ll probably also believe that it was an Imaskari plot, so they’ll definitely want some payback). So while Nezram can provide the means for them to go home, the Mulhorandi gods and their legions of clerics can provide the power to make that transition possible.

So between Nezram and whatever other means he discovered should he have found that race of serpent men he was looking for, the Mulhorandi gods, as well as anything the Mulhorandi might have found on Abeir, it's possible they could be able to bring their civilization back to Faerun, with all the peoples from both Unther and Mulhorand. Five million pissed off Mulhorandi (and possibly an army of those serpent people that Nezram was looking for) descend on the Imaskari and drive them down into Deep Imaskar, with High Imaskar perhaps able to maintain a small portion of land while the Mulhorandi reconquer most of the rest. The Dragonborn in Tymanther are able to repel the Mulhorandi presence within their borders but are left with a couple million Untherite refugees begging for asylum and safety from the Mulhorandi. The end result is that Mulhorand is back and is in a cold war state with both Deep Imaskar beneath its feet (and possibly what's left of High Imaskar on the surface) and Tymanther to its west, which is left reeling after having suddenly absorbed millions of refugees.

13) Luiren: I’d like to see those plucky little Halflings get a new nation. Just because Halflings are nomads in the core setting that doesn’t mean the same has to hold true in Forgotten Realms. The little blighters deserve to have a new homeland.

14) Thay: It’d be nice if WotC were to pull back from talking about how the undead ridiculously outnumber the living. Szass Tam isn’t an idiot. You need living people to create new undead, and if most of your people are already undead then your numbers can only go down as your undead servants are destroyed and you don’t have enough living people to replace them. Moreover, one of the things that made Thay interesting was their variety in magical power, with each Zulkir representing a different school of magic. You might thwart the plans of a Red Wizard of Necromancy in one adventure, in which you confront his undead minions, but in another adventure you might deal with the illusory power of an Illusionist Red Wizard. That variety was nice, as was the power play between the various Zulkir’s. What’s not interesting is having all the Zulkir’s engage in necromancy, with Szass Tam the undisputed ruler of them all.

So my preference would be for Thay to go back to being more like it was. Zulkir’s who represent different magical disciplines, and each of which is a potential threat to Szass Tam, and a Thayvan population in which the living constitute the majority. I want to see the Red Wizards as an organization reemerge, with Mulan children being taken in and trained as Red Wizards. And should Mulhorand come back then a couple hundred thousand of them could end up going over to Thay to help repopulate the living Mulan population. Either way, Thay as an Icecrown equivalent with Szass Tam in the role of the Lich King is just not a good idea. Making the Red Wizards all about necromancy all the time is just plain boring.

As for their magical diversity, I have no idea how to handle that. It really depends on the magical rules in 5E. Will schools of magic come back? If they do then the answer is easy, as you could go back to how it was with a Zulkir for Necromancy, Illusion, Conjuration, etc. But if not, then there’re other options which could potentially be pursued. Maybe the Red Wizards are changed to account for other magical traditions beyond Wizard magic? Perhaps you can have a Zulkir who represents Swordmages, another who represents Warlocks, and one who represents Sorcerers? Then there’s the Zulkir of Wizards, the Zulkir of Necromancers (Szass Tam), and Zulkir’s representing any other magical traditions which exist in D&D 5E. That’s a possibility, although I’d prefer the traditional schools of magic (One way to handle that could potentially be through themes. Maybe a Forgotten Realms supplement could include "Illusionist", "Conjuerer", "Enchanter" themes which can be applied to Wizards to give them more of a specialist wizard flavor, thus allowing for Red Wizards as they were to return in some way).

So yeah, it’d be nice if Thay were to be put back on track to what it was. And if Mulhorand were to reappear, I’d love to see an escalation of conflict between the two, which would pit Thay’s magical might against Mulhorand’s divinely fueled power. I want to see a battle in which Wizards, Necromancers, and Swordmages duke it out with Clerics, Invokers, and Avengers.

15) Villains: I'm tired of all Shades, all the time. There should be an attempt to elevate all the villains of the Realms equally, instead of making everything about Netheril, the Shades, and Shar. Make Thay a major threat again, bring back Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim and make them a major threat again, and so on. Put lots of emphasis on the activities of all the major evil gods, Shar, Cyric, Bane, Lolth, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, and hopefully Myrkul. The more the merrier because variety is what makes things interesting. The Shar Show is boring. The Shar, Bane, Cyric, Myrkul, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, & Lolth Show, however, would be a damn fine show to watch. Make them and their plots constant threats which have to be dealt with at all times, along with those threats posed by the Red Wizards, Netheril, the Cult of the Dragon, and more, and it'd be a very interesting setting.

16) Abeir: …can go pound sand. No interest in seeing it explored.

Anyway, that’s what I have for now. I’m sure I’ll think up more later on.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

the gag is, does Dusk actually have anything to do with the sun or does it have anything to do with the night??
Shar has the deal now....

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Well, it'd be more about the sun that's set rather than the night itself, which is Shar. Shar wants to obliterate all existence, but that's not something that Myrkul wants, because he likes existence. He just likes to make the foundations crumble, to break things apart and leave them in ruin. But if nothing exists, if nothing new's being built, then there's nothing for him to chip away at. So while the three of them would be opposed to each other, they'd also form a kind of symbiotic relationship. From what Myrkul destroys, Lathander creates. What Lathander creates Amaunator preserves. And what Amaunator preserves Myrkul destroys. That doesn't mean any of them would like what the other two do, though, and they'd constantly be at odds with the others.

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An addendum to my previous post.

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7) Bhaal: This one’s another personal wish of mine. I’ve always loved “the Dead Three”, and Bane’s already back, so how about giving Realms fans back the full set? Make him an Exarch at least in service to Myrkul if he ever comes back, or Bane.

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I was thinking of ways to bring Bhaal back and make him relevant, and then it occured to me.

KILL OFF ZEHIR.

Why is this guy even in the Forgotten Realms? After countless gods who've existed in the setting for years were mercilessly killed off, did we really need to see a god from the bland core setting added to the list at the last minute? Who needs this guy? He's not integral to the setting at all, and has a grand total of 71 words in the FRCG making some kind of reference to him. My suggestion is to get rid of him and let Bhaal be the one to do it. Let's see a returned Bhaal assassinate Zehir right in Shar's own domain, the Towers of Night, claim the Portfolios of Darkness, Poison, Serpents, and Assassins from Zehir's corpse, and take his place not as a mere exarch but as a god in service to either Bane or (preferably) Myrkul.

Bhaal's claiming the Portfolio of Serpents would make double sense, too, if one were to consider the Bhaalspawn. Are they canon by the way? Well, assuming they are (and even if they're not, there's no reason why an adapted version of the Baldur's Gate story can't be introduced as canon to the setting), from what I understand once only one Bhaalspawn remains the power split between the others will manifest wholly in the remaining Bhaalspawn and Bhaal would be reborn from that Bhaalspawn. So like Bane and Iyachtu Xvim, Bhaal would resurrect from the flesh of his own child. In this case, then, what if the last remaining child was the union of Bhaal and a serpentine creature of some sort? Maybe a Yuan-Ti or a Sarrukh? That would in turn justify Bhaal not only becoming the god of assassins, but a serpent god as well.

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Wow, this thread is long. I tried to catch up with it but it's taking me forever. Even after skimming through it I'm only up to page 32. But anyway, here’re a couple of responses.

First up, a poster earlier made a comment that reminded me of a reaction I had to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book for 3E when I first bought it. While I adore that book, there was an issue with it that I did notice almost immediately after I bought it, and that was the overabundance of powerful good NPC's like Elminster and the Seven Sisters. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem whatsoever with their existence in the campaign setting or their being extremely powerful and having their power reflected in stats in the game. No more than I'd have a problem with playing a superhero campaign in set in the DC Universe, which contains heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern. There's no reason a campaign world shouldn't already have powerful established heroes.

The problem, though, comes when those NPC heroes thoroughly eclipse the villains who also have stats in the book. It gives the impression that they're more than capable of handling all the major threats on their own and then some. Here's a brief list of both heroes and villains from the FRCS (I'm using their CR's and not their levels, as some of them have templates added to them, are powerful monsters, etc.) to illustrate my point.

HEROES
39 Elminster
36 The Simbul
32 Storm Silverhand
31 Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun
28 Alustriel
18 Drizzt Do’Urden
17 Ningal
15 Caladnei
13 Mirt
10 Alusair Obarskyr

That’s ten heroes from the FRCS. Now let's look at the ten most powerful villains in the same book.

VILLAINS
31 Szass Tam
30 Halaster Blackcloak
25 Klauth: Dragon of the North
25 Manshoon
23 Fzoul Chembryl
22 Hadrhune
18 Artemis Entreri
18 Gerti Orelsdottr
17 Semmemon
15 Scyllua Darkhope

Note the power disparity? The most powerful villain is separated from the most powerful hero by 8 CR levels. The second most powerful villain is separated from the second most powerful villain by 6 CR levels. The third most powerful villain is separated from the second most powerful villain by 7 CR levels. The fourth most powerful villain is separated from the second most powerful villain by 6 CR levels. And the fifth most powerful villain is separated from the second most powerful villain by 5 CR levels. You have to go down to the fourth most powerful hero to find an even match for the most powerful villain. That disparity is even worse when you consider that it's usually someone like Manshoon who Elminster goes up against, and the power disparity in that scenario is even more lopsided in Elminster's favor.

This was just a continuation from 2E. In the Heroes Lorebook, the heroes who were Level 20 and above were:

30 The Simbul
29 Elminster
27 Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun
25 Laeral Silverhand
24 Alustriel Silverhand
22 Storm Silverhand
20 King Azoun Obarskyr IV
20 Cadderly
20 Gwydion

By contrast, the villains who were Level 20 and higher were:

30 Halaster Blackcloak
29 Szass Tam, Zulkir of Necromancy
20 Maligor, Zulkir of Alteration

It's one thing to have powerful heroic NPC's. That's fine in my view. What caused the problem, though, was that these powerful heroic NPC's were paired up against vastly weaker villainous NPC's. The 4E Realms designers decided that the solution to that was to start slaughtering the Seven Sisters and the Chosen at will, and cripple Elminster. That was a really bad solution, though, and it makes more problems than it solves as it destroys storyline opportunities. A better solution would be to instead beef up the power levels of the existing villains as well as to introduce new powerful villains (That was actually one of the few things that the 4E Realms got right, by beefing up the power levels of both Manshoon and Fzoul, who're now both Level 28. Unfortunately they made Fzoul an Exarch which, in my opinion, sets a very bad example. One imagines that Elminster and the Simbul are Level 29 or 30, so even after being made a god they're still more powerful than him?).

The 3E Realms did a pretty good job of introducing new villains (Scyllua Darkhope was a favorite, and I was sorry to see her die), but the Realms needs far more powerful villains to counteract the heroes. A good rule of thumb would be to stat up two epic villains in any campaign supplement for every one epic hero that receives stats. So yes, by all means, provide stats for Elminster in a sourcebook...

...but then provide stats for Manshoon and Fzoul and make each of them of comparable power to Elminster.

Personally I think that would go a long way towards counteracting the perception that there's no need for the player characters in the Forgotten Realms because the NPC heroes can do it all. It's easy to believe that Elminster, a 29th-Level Wizard, can solve all of Toril's problems on his own when he typically faces off against Manshoon, a 19th-Level Wizard, and Fzoul Chembryl, a 16th-Level Cleric. It's a whole different story, though, when Elminster, a 29th-Level Wizard, has to contend with Manshoon, a 29th-Level Wizard, and Fzoul Chembryl, a 29th-Level Cleric. In that case then he's not dominating the competition. He's barely holding the line, and it's up to the player characters to tip the balance in the favor of good.

The same holds true for the Chosen. When the only examples of Chosen are heroes it gives further credence to the idea that the heroes of the setting vastly overpower the villains. The answer to that, then, is to introduce more villainous Chosen into the setting. 3E took a good step in that direction when they made Fzoul a Chosen of Bane (although sadly they still left him Level 19). The 5E Realms should go even further than that. Let’s see some more Chosen of Bane, as well as Chosen of Shar, Cyric, Lolth, Gruumsh, etc. And introduce two or so of comparable power for every one Chosen that appears from the good deity’s (Mystra, Torm, Selune, etc.).

As you say at the start of the thread, this should be about additive lore, not subtractive lore. Likewise, that’s what the 4E Realms design team should’ve had in mind when they were working on the setting. They should’ve thought “What can we add to this setting to make it better?” instead of “What can we take away from this setting to make it better?” because, personally speaking, I think the former would’ve been better for the world than what the latter turned out to be. And I think the Realms would’ve been far better off seeing existing villains beefed up and new villains added than to have existing heroes killed off or otherwise handicapped.

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If you had to pick 12-13 deities to include in the 5e Forgotten Realms Players Guide (or whatever it ends up being called), what would they be? And why? I've already given my list--I'd be interested to see what else people go with. Remember that the kind of baseline assumption is: "These are the deities an adventurer is most likely to worship. Experienced players who know more about the Realms or are willing to delve into the lore can choose any FR deity from the expanded list to worship."

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Well, I went with 15, which is a good solid number to me. Here’s what I have.

1) Corellon Larethian [CG; Greater God]: Magic, Music, Poetry, the Arts, Crafts, Bards, War, Warriors, Elves.
2) Helm [LN; God]: Guardians, Protectors, Protection.
3) Ilmater [LG; God]: Martyrdom, Endurance, Perseverance, Suffering.
4) Kelemvor [LN; Greater God]: Death, the Dead.
5) Lathander [NG; Greater God]: Dawn, Spring, Renewal, Birth, Vitality, Youth, Athletics, Self-Perfection, Creativity.
6) Mask [NE; God]: Shadows, Intrigue, Thievery, Thieves.
7) Mielikki [CG; God]: Autumn, Forests, Forest Creatures, Dryads, Rangers.
8) Moradin [LG; Greater God]: Creation, Metalwork, Smithing, Stonework, Protection, Dwarves.
9) Mystra [LN; Greater God]: Magic, Spells, the Weave.
10) Oghma [N; Greater God]: Knowledge, Invention, Inspiration, Bards.
11) Selune [CG; Greater God]: The Moon, Stars, Prophecy, Good and Neutral Lycanthropes, Navigation, Questers.
12) Silvanus [N; Greater God]: Wild Nature, Druids.
13) Tempus [CN; Greater God]: Battle, War, Warriors.
14) Torm [LG; Greater God]: Justice, Duty, Honor, Loyalty, Obedience, Paladins.
15) Tymora [CG; God]: Good Fortune, Skill, Victory, Adventurers.

And a couple notes.

5) As I've argued before, I think Lathander and Amaunator should be separate gods. They'd also attract separate kinds of worshippers. A Lathanderite would be the type to go looking for problems to solve, apply a quick fix, and move on to something new. It's the worshipper of Amaunator who'd stay in an area and handle things longterm. So in temperament, then Lathanderite is more the adventuring sort.

6) He's the only evil god on the list because I think worshippers of Mask can still function in a group of mostly good characters, as Rogues, Thieves and such are already a bit shady, but don't necessarily have to be evil.

14) I'm assuming that Torm has Tyr's old portfolio of Justice, which is why he's a Greater God, now. I also think he should have the Portfolio of Honor. Duty, Honor, and Justice being his watchwords sounds about right to me.

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Here’s another addendum to my prior post regarding Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim.

The problem with bringing back Zhentil Keep is that, even at its strongest, it was unable to repel the Shadovar. So if anybody comes along and tries to rebuild Zhentil Keep then the Netherese will just sweep in and stomp them flat all over again, only this time they’ll have an easier time of it. So the only way for Zhentil Keep to come back is if it reemerges out of the gate with enough strength to make Netheril stop and consider if attacking the resurgent Zhentil Keep is too much of a risk, which would give them enough time to form an alliance with Myth Drannor, the Dalelands, and Cormyr, thus ensuring their safety in the long-term. And the only way for Zhentil Keep to come back right out the gate with that much strength would be as a result of careful planning, the accumulation of power without drawing attention, and/or through the use of a MacGuffin. Fortunately, though, this could be a very reasonable possibility given that both Manshoon and Fzoul Chembryl are still around and have had 100 years to plan the resurrection of Zhentil Keep.

Both Manshoon and Fzoul would have every reason to want to see Zhentil Keep rebuilt. More than that, it’d be a point of pride for them, particularly Fzoul, who died in the defense of Zhentil Keep. The way I see it, neither of them would be content until they can prove that they can come back from that defeat stronger and better than ever. So I could see the two of them plotting the resurgence of Zhentil Keep immediately following Fzoul’s resurrection by Bane. To that end they could have initiated a long-term to insinuate themselves and their agents into positions of power within the Moonsea and surrounding areas. Mulmaster is a given. Towards the end of 3E it was already an unofficial part of the Zhentarim power base, so much so that they even faked a naval defeat to bolster Zhentil Keep. Moreover, there’s an enormous Banite influence in Mulmaster, and who is it that directs the Banite faith? Fzoul Chembryl.

So picture this: Manshoon and Fzoul surreptitiously gain control over not only Mulmaster, but Hillsfar, Phlan, Melvaunt, and Thentia. They’ve had 100 years to worm their agents into positions of influence, and after a century, all of these cities are now firmly under their control. Take Torin Nomerthal of Hillsfar, for instance. Supposedly First Lords only serve for a single term, but Nomerthal is into his third term. What if he’s so successful because he’s being propped up by outside interests, namely the Zhentarim, and is in actuality a member of the Zhentarim himself?

Their interests may extend beyond the Moonsea, too, as Impiltur is also vulnerable. This is a country that keeps going from bad to worse, so how do they solve their problems? They hire a mercenary company known for its ruthless efficiency, the Zhentarim. They show up, ruthlessly exterminate the demon-worshippers, and end up staying. And all of this is accomplished thanks to the help of Behroun Marhana, a man who’s been in the public life of Impiltur for over 80 years. A man who gained his position about 20 years after the Spellplague, and 20 years since Manshoon and Fzoul would’ve first begun plotting. So Behroun Marhana may not only be an agent of Manshoon and Fzoul, he may have gained his position due to them from the very start.

So with the city-states of the Moonsea and Impiltur beneath their control, they direct their agents to have these nations decide to form a union to better resist Netherese influence, and because they’re all “equal” partners in this endeavor, and none want to be considered to have undue influence by playing host to the capital city of the new nation, they decide to take Zhentil Keep and rebuild it as their new capital city. So just like that Zhentil Keep is back and stronger than ever as it now serves as the capital city of an empire which stretches across the Moonsea and Impiltur. The Council of Lords is reestablished with Fzoul Chembryl, Behroun Marhana, Torin Nomerthal, and other representatives from all the other cities, with Manshoon serving as First Lord. With all that assembled might at their backs that may just be enough to give Netheril pause and make them reconsider launching another all-out attack against Zhentil Keep.

As for the Zhentarim itself, one could say that what’s presented in the FRCG is their public face. Think of the 47 Ronin. They presented themselves to the public in such a way as to make people think that they weren’t a threat, when the whole time they were plotting the downfall of Kira. Likewise with the Zhentarim who, under the direction of Manshoon, might be portraying themselves as nothing more than a simple mercenary company when the reality is far different. Instead of just being out for money their goal is to recruit and train powerful agents to their cause, gathering intelligence across Faerun, and searching for powerful magical artifacts which can be used to defend against the Shadovar. A search which may very well have led them to the Phaerimm Memory Spire, and the possibility of finding a powerful magical artifact created by the Phaerimm to fight against Netheril. That’s another thing which could potentially hold off an attack from Netheril, giving Zhentil Keep the time to rearm and rebuild.*

In addition, while the Cyricists gained control of the Zhentarim in the immediate aftermath of the destruction of Zhentil Keep, Manshoon’s had 100 years to slowly weed them out of the organization and replace them with far more disciplined and loyal soldiers. The Pereghost could be the start of that. Like Fzoul, one could easily see him returning to the Banite fold. Being CE never suited him, anyway, as he’s always been a more Lawful Evil type. He’s a character who should definitely be elevated, though, as he’s always been interesting but woefully underused. So have him rededicate himself to the worship of Bane, ally himself with Manshoon and Fzoul, and spearhead the strengthening and sharpening of the Zhentarim. As for how he’s survived the past 100 years, perhaps he’s become a Death Knight?

Another powerful agent which Manshoon and Fzoul could make use of is a resurrected Scyllua Darkhope. She’s too good a villain to see go to waste, so why not have Bane bring her back to life and make her a Chosen of Bane (A Chosen of Bane, not the Chosen of Bane. I’d prefer to see more)? He did bring Fzoul back, after all, so why not Scyllua too? She comes back and serves both Manshoon and Fzoul within the Zhentarim, advancing their cause and moving their plans forward. And once Zhentil Keep is rebuilt she can return to her old job of Castellan.

So the end result of all this?

1) Zhentil Keep returns stronger than ever.

2) Netheril has a new powerful enemy to the east.

3) Myth Drannor, the Dalelands, and Cormyr have a potential powerful new ally and/or enemy (even if they were to ally together for mutual defense, there’s absolutely no way they’d be able to trust the Zhents, who’d still be a threat to them, albeit a more subtle one as they wouldn’t jeopardize any alliance by making any overt moves).

4) Vesperin and Tantras are surrounded on three sides by Banite forces.

5) Powerful villainous NPC’s reappeared or are resurrected. And with 100 years since we last saw them they could easily be epic level threats by now, particularly if WotC were to transform one into a Death Knight and the other into a Chosen of Bane.

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THE 'DEAD' THREE & TORM
I mentioned earlier my desire to see Myrkul and Bhaal return, and I thought I'd reiterate that desire with two interesting points (Well, interesting to me, at least).

First of all, bringing back Myrkul and Bhaal opens up the door to explore more of their background during their mortal lives and the journey that led to their godhood. This article, for instance,...

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a

...I found to be extremely interesting, and I'd love to have more of its kind. And I enjoy their relationship in general, so aside from exploring their background, I'd love to see their continued interactions in the present day and the future.

The second thing which I'd be interested in seeing is an exploration of a possible link between the Dead Three and Torm. If one takes a look at the dates then it's very possible that all four were mortals in Faerun at the same time. There isn't a lot of certainty, but as far as I know, these are the dates which are certain.

-350 DR The Dead Three were mortal at this point in time.
-339 DR Torm was a mortal at this time.
-256 DR Torm was a god by this point.
-255 DR The Dead Three were gods by this point.

That's a wide gap to be certain. A 96-year period in which The Dead Three could've ascended to godhood, and an 84-year period in which Torm could've ascended to godhood. Nevermind that the Dead Three could've possibly ascended to godhood at least 11 years before Torm presumably became active, and may have even ascended to godhood while he was still a child. But nonetheless it's still amazing how closely they overlap. So the question then is if Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal ever went to Chalsembyr. Did they meet Torm when they were all mortals? And what happened? I'd be interested in this story. Obviously Torm didn't kill any of them as they completed their journey, but that doesn't necessarily mean they killed him either. If there was an encounter, it could've ended in any number of ways, from outright killing Torm to Torm defeating the three of them and maybe even delaying their ascent to godhood in the process.

The 3E FRCS states that Bane hates Torm above all the other gods. Is it just because of their battle in the harbor of Tantras, or could he have greater and more personal reasons for hating Torm? If so, then that's a story that I'd like to hear (Not to mention an explanation on why Bane doesn't reveal Chalsembyr's location purely out of spite if for no other reason, given that Torm keeps its location quiet).

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

1) Your number one favorite thing about the Realms, which needs to be preserved or developed. Give suggestions if you like.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

2) Your number one thing that needs to be addressed {snip}

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@One thing about the Realms: I know we all love the Realms, and there are thousands of things about the Realms we want to preserve. That goes without saying. But what is your baby? What do you love the most about it, and what is your highest priority for repair?

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@One thing about the Realms: I know we all love the Realms, and there are thousands of things about the Realms we want to preserve. That goes without saying. But what is your baby? What do you love the most about it, and what is your highest priority for repair?

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Originally posted by Hawkins

I can narrow my list down to 3 things I hated: the deific culling/silly drama (yes, I know that that in and of itself is a big one), the detonation of Halruaa, and whatever it was that happened to Luiren to make halflings become migratory (I did not learn about that one until recently). Yes, two of these are in the Shining South. I do not understand why the 4e Realms designers seemed to think that no one liked it. Oh, wait, one more thing, make tieflings cool (i.e. 2/3e in appearance) again!

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

If possible, make your first post in this thread a set of two number ones:

1) Your number one favorite thing about the Realms, which needs to be preserved or developed. Give suggestions if you like.

2) Your number one thing that needs to be addressed, for you to love the Realms like you used to. Maybe you're upset about Mystra (which Ed is working on, so take some comfort there), or you want Halruaa back, or whatever. We all have things we want fixed. Here's where we discuss them.

Go!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

2) The Shining South (specifically Dambrath): Near as I can tell, the Shining South sourcebook just sold very poorly, so the powers that be decided it wasn't a viable locale to focus upon, or that it needed a substantial revision, or something. Myself, I think the Shining South just needs some novel love, which I think the Crinti particularly are ripe for. I myself would *love* to write a novel about that culture, but we'll see what happens.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

who knowns, the psell palgue could have warped the timnestream there....

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Good thoughts, guys. This is the sort of discussion I want to have.
<snip>
2) The Shining South (specifically Dambrath): Near as I can tell, the Shining South sourcebook just sold very poorly, so the powers that be decided it wasn't a viable locale to focus upon, or that it needed a substantial revision, or something. Myself, I think the Shining South just needs some novel love, which I think the Crinti particularly are ripe for. I myself would *love* to write a novel about that culture, but we'll see what happens.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

and on a side note...can we call them something else other than marry sue??? who was marry sue anyway??

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Originally posted by Markustay

In the other new thread, Sage is talking about a 'soft' reboot, which I am a big proponent of, but what if we decided to get a little drastic? I think that many of the thoughts behind 4e were correct, and changes were warranted, but I think they just went about it in a really terrible way. What I am talking about is 50% what 4e did, and 50% what 3e did - alter the map to make it more accommodating. We have Abeir now, so this doesn't have to be a hard reboot - it could just be another 'cosmic whammy' terrain exchange thingy.

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