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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that Manshoon actually fell upon a spell that was used long ago in Netheril.
I'm not so certain of that.
Considering that Manshoon's Stasis Clone spell is a casting of his own devising [as deemed by Ed], I'm fully confident with the possibility that Manshoon can, and in fact has, developed new and expanded uses of other spells based on nothing more than his own research and experimentation.
Does that preclude him from taking from ancient magics ideas that he then uses to create new spells?
Most definitely. The twist being, Manshoon's own arrogance would have him think that he could even improve upon the arcane practices of those ancient and fallen masters of magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:35:02
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I always wondered about this when AD&D2 came out...I wondered how in the hades Manshoon had even MADE the Stasis Clone spell when his level was so low?
It is a 9th level spell...
He was quoted as being a 16th level wizard (page 25, DMs Sourcebook of the Realms, Old Grey Box)...
Unless he found the Stasis Clone spell on a scroll (NUMEROUS COPIES OF IT TOO!), then how...prior to his being 19th level in AD&D2 (as listed in the book Forgotten Realms Adventures) was he able to continously come back?
Unless he had somehow been higher level...made many clones...and then perhaps lost levels to Undead creatures...I didn't see how it was possible. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:49:04
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Nope.
Occam's Razor...
He died. A clone of lower level came back and too his place.
You use the spell to explain the spell. No need for undead.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 05:49:59 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 06:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Nope.
Occam's Razor...
He died. A clone of lower level came back and too his place.
You use the spell to explain the spell. No need for undead.
He couldn't HAVE a lower level clone...that would mean he was the level of the clone when he cast the spell...so at 16th level he couldn't have cast the spell to even make a clone. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 14:36:44
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| Well, as I suggested in the other scroll... Maybe the 16th level version of Manshoon was created from a spell that was not yet perfected, resulting in levels being lost in the process. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 15:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I always wondered about this when AD&D2 came out...I wondered how in the hades Manshoon had even MADE the Stasis Clone spell when his level was so low?
Spellplague.
It's such a powerful plot device, it even works backward through time!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 16:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I suggested in the other scroll... Maybe the 16th level version of Manshoon was created from a spell that was not yet perfected, resulting in levels being lost in the process.
Hmmm...interesting theory. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 16:27:19
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Ahhhh, Gotcha. I didn't think of that. He could conceivably come back as a lower-level clone, but he couldn't have created the clone using that spell in the first place. All the clones would have to be at least 17th level (can you create 9th level spells at 17th?)
So he either got the spell from somewhere else (and the current Manshoon clone of the 1e/2e era was cast from a scroll), or he had an earlier version of the spell - could he have created an 8th level version? Maybe one with a clone time-limit, like the replicants of Bladerunner?
And if each copy is a little less 'perfect' then the last, is that why Manshoon is such a nut-job? He seems to have gone from a brilliant, calculating mastermind to a one-track, twisted psycho. He went from being lex Luthor (in the past) to being The Joker.
And now I'm thinking about the funny Michael Keaton movie Multiplicity. If you seen it, you know what happens to a copy of a copy.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 16:29:03 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 16:30:26
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| You can create 8th level spells at 16th level. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 17:42:37
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Okay, just looked it up - the regular Clone spell is only level 8.
That was probably the one he was using until he researched and created his 'updateable' version. Normal Clones don't have an internet connection.
The last Manshoon to die pre-1e was probably in close proximity to one of these 'early models' (he may have even been intending to destroy it), and when he bit the dust the older version (from the normal Clone spell) awoke. Hence, we have the 'nerfed' Manshoon in 1e. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Elminster to have planned it this way (to catch him trying to destroy one of the original clones, in order to keep him in-check just a bit). Mystra doesn't allow El to kill Manshoon for good, but he is the type to twist the rules whenever he can (and 'steer' which clone becomes the new Manshoon). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 17:48:39 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 00:55:59
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Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood.
Manshoon as a Shade? Not likely. He is still very young really..."traditional" means of keeping himself alive haven't expired yet. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:16:08
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What has age got to do with it? He's not an infant anymore...
Anyway, was his becoming a vampire intentional? Why not a lich? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Anyway, was his becoming a vampire intentional?
No. The Night King happened upon a stasis clone of Manshoon, hidden beneath Westgate. As we're told, the Night King was unaware of the clone's identity -- he simply wanted to maintain the stasis-held being as a servitor vampire that he can could continually feed upon. The King then secreted away the clone, which the real Manshoon was never able to recover. ['Tis all detailed on pg. 48 of Cloak & Dagger.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What has age got to do with it? He's not an infant anymore...
Anyway, was his becoming a vampire intentional? Why not a lich?
He was made into a Vampire by another Vampire...which he destroyed.
He had no intention of turning into anything.
Age has everything to do with it. Even Tam didn't WANT to become a Lich...it was his only choice for survival. Most humans want to remain human...and enjoy being human. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhh, Gotcha. I didn't think of that. He could conceivably come back as a lower-level clone, but he couldn't have created the clone using that spell in the first place. All the clones would have to be at least 17th level (can you create 9th level spells at 17th?)
So he either got the spell from somewhere else (and the current Manshoon clone of the 1e/2e era was cast from a scroll), or he had an earlier version of the spell - could he have created an 8th level version? Maybe one with a clone time-limit, like the replicants of Bladerunner?
I believe Ed may have said something once about the true Manshoon sitting off on his own somewhere, looking down over the actions of his clones and playing puppetmaster. So it's possible that we haven't actually seen the "real" one in published Realmslore yet, only various clones of the guy. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:46:59
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I see. I thought turning himself into a vampire was part of his convoluted contingencies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 04:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood.
It's only cooler so longer as no one with a flashlight comes along.
I truly fail to see where trading away your humanity is cool. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 04:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhh, Gotcha. I didn't think of that. He could conceivably come back as a lower-level clone, but he couldn't have created the clone using that spell in the first place. All the clones would have to be at least 17th level (can you create 9th level spells at 17th?)
So he either got the spell from somewhere else (and the current Manshoon clone of the 1e/2e era was cast from a scroll), or he had an earlier version of the spell - could he have created an 8th level version? Maybe one with a clone time-limit, like the replicants of Bladerunner?
I believe Ed may have said something once about the true Manshoon sitting off on his own somewhere, looking down over the actions of his clones and playing puppetmaster. So it's possible that we haven't actually seen the "real" one in published Realmslore yet, only various clones of the guy.
I prefer to think of it this way too...as far as Canon goes. For my own Realms, I will most likely go this route in a bit more limited fashion. His Stasis Clones will each be much more similar to Contingent Simulacrum...but to such an advanced degree that they each upon "awaking" think they are the real Manshoon. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 04:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood.
It's only cooler so longer as no one with a flashlight comes along.
I truly fail to see where trading away your humanity is cool.
And becoming a vampire or a bunch of (useless) clones is NOT trading your humanity? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 04:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood.
It's only cooler so longer as no one with a flashlight comes along.
I truly fail to see where trading away your humanity is cool.
And becoming a vampire or a bunch of (useless) clones is NOT trading your humanity?
Manshoon did not become a vampire voluntarily.
Useless clones? They've kept him alive for quite a long time, without resorting to trading away his humanity. And since the stasis clone spell essentially provides a duplicate for your soul to exist in, there is nothing lost in the process, particularly not your humanity. Manshoon is a hell of a lot more human than any of the Shades. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 05:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhh, Gotcha. I didn't think of that. He could conceivably come back as a lower-level clone, but he couldn't have created the clone using that spell in the first place. All the clones would have to be at least 17th level (can you create 9th level spells at 17th?)
So he either got the spell from somewhere else (and the current Manshoon clone of the 1e/2e era was cast from a scroll), or he had an earlier version of the spell - could he have created an 8th level version? Maybe one with a clone time-limit, like the replicants of Bladerunner?
I believe Ed may have said something once about the true Manshoon sitting off on his own somewhere, looking down over the actions of his clones and playing puppetmaster. So it's possible that we haven't actually seen the "real" one in published Realmslore yet, only various clones of the guy.
Indeed. The FRCG mentioned that the Manshoon clone that was hiding out in Undermountain was destroyed during the Spellplague. There was the other clone that remained with the Zhentarim too -- of which we know nothing. So, along with the clone as the Night King, we know there are/were three "official" Manshoon clones running around. And, as Ed did say, there were actually more than the "official three" Manshoon clones still at large as of 3e. What happened to them in the post-Spellplague period remains to be seen, if at all.
I suspect Ed *knows*... Heh. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 05:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I see. I thought turning himself into a vampire was part of his convoluted contingencies.
As I said, Cloak & Dagger explains the situation somewhat. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 05:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Had Manshoon ever considered becoming a shade? In many ways, shades are cooler than vampires. Not to mention they have low maintenance. For one, they don't need blood.
It's only cooler so longer as no one with a flashlight comes along.
I truly fail to see where trading away your humanity is cool.
And becoming a vampire or a bunch of (useless) clones is NOT trading your humanity?
That really does depend on whether the choice was voluntarily.. or whether becoming a vampire or clone was forcibly visited upon the character without his/her approval. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 05:29:42
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Roll your eyes if you will Dennis, but the fact remains that Manshoon is NOT:
A Lich
A Vampire (ONE clone is)
A Shade
A Outsider
What he IS (according to Ed):
This cruel, calculating man heads the Zhentarim; its power and success are largely clue to his efforts, and its collective control of Zhentil Keep, the Citadel of the Raven (and through it, dominance over Thar and the cities of the Moonsea's northern coast), Darkhold (and through it, maintenance of the shortest overland trade route between the Inner Sea and Waterdeep) have made him very rich.
Manshoon, a noble of Zhentil Keep, slew his older brother Asmuth and seized control of the city's governing councils by skillful intrigue, staunch allies (such as Lord Chess, a lifelong friend), and the aid of that faction of the priesthood of Bane controlled by Fzoul Chembryl and of the beholder Xantriph. Manshoon's own alliances with Dark Nagas, and his manipulations of the Cult of the Dragon, increased his influence and bought him the time necessary to build his personal mastery of the magical arts without allowing stronger rivals to assume control of the city until he was ready to take it.
Take it he has, and has flourished; his spell library is thought to be the equal of Khelben Arunsun's, and his arsenal of magical devices and weapons the largest held by a single mage anywhere in the Realms(although it is scattered, hidden, and guarded by spells and monsters). He is known to possess a staff of the magi and wear black robes of the arch-magi, to wear a ring of spell storing and a ring of wizardry (that doubles fourth and fifth level spells), and is quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to kill him, and none have succeeded; he is careful, never lets his temper master his reason, and is always alert. He seems an unbeatable foe; others face danger to do his bidding, but he's "never there."
What he somehow turned into:
A crazy lunatic with split-body syndrome. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 13 Jun 2012 05:31:45 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 12:09:04
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| Yeah, it's now a bash Manshoon thread. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 12:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Roll your eyes if you will Dennis, but the fact remains that Manshoon is NOT:
A Lich
A Vampire (ONE clone is)
A Shade
A Outsider
What he IS (according to Ed):
This cruel, calculating man heads the Zhentarim; its power and success are largely clue to his efforts, and its collective control of Zhentil Keep, the Citadel of the Raven (and through it, dominance over Thar and the cities of the Moonsea's northern coast), Darkhold (and through it, maintenance of the shortest overland trade route between the Inner Sea and Waterdeep) have made him very rich.
Manshoon, a noble of Zhentil Keep, slew his older brother Asmuth and seized control of the city's governing councils by skillful intrigue, staunch allies (such as Lord Chess, a lifelong friend), and the aid of that faction of the priesthood of Bane controlled by Fzoul Chembryl and of the beholder Xantriph. Manshoon's own alliances with Dark Nagas, and his manipulations of the Cult of the Dragon, increased his influence and bought him the time necessary to build his personal mastery of the magical arts without allowing stronger rivals to assume control of the city until he was ready to take it.
Take it he has, and has flourished; his spell library is thought to be the equal of Khelben Arunsun's, and his arsenal of magical devices and weapons the largest held by a single mage anywhere in the Realms(although it is scattered, hidden, and guarded by spells and monsters). He is known to possess a staff of the magi and wear black robes of the arch-magi, to wear a ring of spell storing and a ring of wizardry (that doubles fourth and fifth level spells), and is quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to kill him, and none have succeeded; he is careful, never lets his temper master his reason, and is always alert. He seems an unbeatable foe; others face danger to do his bidding, but he's "never there."
What he somehow turned into:
A crazy lunatic with split-body syndrome.
I like the Ed part.
The crazy lunatic with split-body syndrome not so much. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:56:36
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If Shade were indeed weakened, I'd like it to be an opportunity for them to build from within. That is, instead of conquering other realms, why not repopulate the former Anauroch with more slaves and Netherese people? Just like reviving the Low Netheril. The difference is, this time, the populace are loyal (more or less) to one lord (Telamont), and can work in concert to meet the demands of their capital (Shade). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 14:56:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What he IS (according to Ed):
This cruel, calculating man heads the Zhentarim; its power and success are largely clue to his efforts... (He)... seized control of the city's governing councils by skillful intrigue, staunch allies (such as Lord Chess, a lifelong friend), and the aid of that faction of the priesthood of Bane controlled by Fzoul Chembryl and of the beholder Xantriph. Manshoon's own alliances with Dark Nagas, and his manipulations of the Cult of the Dragon, increased his influence and bought him the time necessary to build his personal mastery of the magical arts without allowing stronger rivals to assume control of the city until he was ready to take it.... Many have tried to kill him, and none have succeeded; he is careful, never lets his temper master his reason, and is always alert. He seems an unbeatable foe; others face danger to do his bidding, but he's "never there."
What he somehow turned into:
A crazy lunatic with split-body syndrome.
One of the reasons I am about to start a 4E post-Spellplague campaign with a weaker clone of Manshoon as the BBEG is that I want to Ed-ify him. I'm effectively starting the Zhentarim again. My Manshoon "the lesser" has spent months wading through the history of the Zhents et al from the past century or so and he's determined to create a new Zhentarim by avoiding the mistakes of the old.
And while I am at it, I'm going to do my best to run him as Ed intended. I'll know if I have succeeded if I can make my players hate him so that they talk about him after the campaign has ended. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 15:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
While reading the latest of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles, I came across this interesting tidbit of lore from everyone's favorite unreliable narrator, Elminster: Given their wrath, anyone with coin enough and persuasive words—which does, yes, lead back to Sembia, and the mages of Shade who have become as weak as I have, reduced to tricking others into doing their work for them. Manipulation—and the gullible—are truly everywhere.”
So, what's happened to Shade that this might be so? How have they been stripped of their Art and power, I wonder?
EDIT: These articles are written in batches as I understand it, and turned in all at once before being published as the months go by. That said, could this be a first example of Ed "steering the Realms" in the manner of someone who's got some creative control over the Realms for 5E?
I would take this a little more literally and less broad. I'd imagine some of the "mages of shade" were "chosen" of Shar. Whenever the shadow weave fell apart, I'm betting some of these "chosen" to which Shar had endowed much power suffered some backlashes similiar to what happened to Mystra's chosen. I haven't kept up with the 4E stuff, but maybe Telamont's lost some power. Maybe Rivalen's lost some power. Maybe there's some other forces that I'm not thinking of that also suffered. Maybe the heads of their empire are keeping their toadie mages of shade in line through sheer fear of what Telamont did in years past and even they don't know about how weak he's become. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Shadovar reduced to almost nothing?
