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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 01:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Othinnar
I'm one of the people who thought that Ao has a connection with Anu, and if I remember good, the Overgod was covered in stars in the books? If so, it's a very sky-god thing.
Ao was said to have worn a robe that was apparently crafted from celestial cloth -- black and dotted with millions of stars and thousands of moons -- in patterns that were not quite perceptible but lent the robe a harmonious feel. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 06:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Othinnar
Nicolai, I think you may read it the Dicefreaks Forum. Eldacar, are you maybe someone imortant from Diceafreaks?
No. I read posts there on occasion (some of the builds are interesting), but I've never joined up. I got the original list from WotC's Gleemax, though I suppose the person could have posted it elsewhere as well. I doubt that my own version (even though it's similar to what I adapted it from) has ever been read by anybody else, since I've never posted it to the Internet before. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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slayer
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 15:26:27
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| The distinction it's trying to make is clear, each "crystal sphere" has it's own pantheon and therefor it's own overgod. Clearly some force (Ao's boss)regulates the transfer of powers across these entirely separate yet somehow connected realities. The realms are setup in a way where travel, to anywhere and anytime, is at least feasible (depending what power and knowledge you possess). It's hard to say whether these realms even operate on the same time-scales and apparently crystal spheres can be destroyed as well (though I figure if the spellplague didn't do it then what will?). |
"When you get to hell, tell em I sent ya, you'll get a discount" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 01:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Alpha Omega idea seems much more persuasive to me, although the symbol for Omega doesn't look anything like the letter "o."
I still think the Aleph-Null idea isn't too much less likely, though. It was noted that an Aleph doesn't look like an A, but an Omega doesn't look like an O either. In either case, they work as English abbreviations.
The passage "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end" was first written in Chapter 1 Verse 8 of the Book of Revelations when the New Testament was first written (in Classical Greek). Written with the first letter and the last letter of the (Classical Greek) alphabet, just the letters themselves, not the names of the letters. This passage didn't appear verbatim in older (pre-Greek) manuscripts and hasn't consistently appeared every later (post-Greek) version, although it was part of the (Early Modern English) "Authorized Version" King James Bible which has become a standard reference baseline for the majority of (Modern English) Bible versions written afterwards.
But Alpha and Omega is still just a Biblical reference, widely accepted by Christians for nearly 2000 years, it's popularly understood to mean some very general and some very specific things fundamental to Christian faith, and - Christian or not - we've all heard it and been at least a little impressed by the elegant method and meaning within the wording.
All that being said, I think it's fair to say that Christians (scholars, clergy, and laymen alike) often disagree on the exact meaning or even the validity of Alpha and Omega, and Christian monotheism isn't particularly valid in a fantasy world populated by a plethora of Realms deities. Even the most profound message Alpha and Omega could possibly bring to us here simply wouldn't be applicable (or true) in the Realms.
Lord Ao, Overgod and supreme Creator of the Realms (after Ed and Grubb, lol) isn't quite lofty enough to truly be the Alpha and Omega of the entire cosmos. He's not at all an ultimate supreme power - he reports to a boss, he has to clean up after his gods, he permits travel between "his" sphere and others which are (at least sometimes) the domain of other overgodly entities, he apparently can't (or won't) properly enforce his own rules and proclamations upon mortals, Tablets of Fate go missing, the Weave is full of holes, smokepowder production is always increasing, etc, etc.
Aleph Null is far more sensible. "Cardinality of a countably infinite set." A translation for non-mathematicians might be "divide by zero is undefined or equals infinity" with the understanding that this sort of infinity isn't truly and absolutely infinite without limits, it's a "smaller" infinity or set of infinities (bound by the limits of countably infinite sets) which is still quite incomprehensibly infinite but less than the truly infinite infinities it can approximate or approach, lol.
In plain English, I'd say Lord Ao can command powers which appear to have (nearly) infinite magnitude within the boundaries of his sphere/domain, but these would be far less infinite (or even nonexistent) outside those boundaries. Aleph is of course the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, Null is derived from the Latin word for "none".
But in the end I think these apparent linguistic similarities have no real significance. Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and English have no place in the Realms - assuming that our rulebooks and novels and Realmslore have all been translated for our convenience. Alpha Omega and Aleph Null are both weak coincidences, especially since their origins and symbols are so tenuously removed from "AO" - although coincidental relationship is not impossible and an intentionally or accidentally contrived relationship on the part of the authors/designers is actually somewhat probable.
For all we know Ao is just a designation for the guy in charge of the sphere which occupies Grid Sector AO.
And I'm beginning to seriously think that Ao's "boss" is Ptah, lol.
Ptah does not have (near) absolute power within one sphere.
Ptah does have a presence and the ability to exert a little power (even if just as an Intermediate God) in every sphere across the cosmos, even spheres unknown or inaccessible to other overgods.
Ptah would be the only entity likely to worry about (or be able to do anything about) spheres moving "out of balance".
And Ptah may not actually be Ao's "boss", Ptah may pass Ao's reports to an even greater cosmic entity - Ptah may be the messenger of the overgods. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Feb 2017 01:45:05 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 08:49:33
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Good morning everyone,
I was also under the impression that there are several possible Overgods if you will in addition to Lord Ao:
- Celestial Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy
- Fate of the Zakharan's
- the Mother-Deity of the Maztican's
Any one have anything on that?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 17:17:57
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| I don't think they are overgods in the same way Ao is. They're more the pantheons of their respective regions. I think they still answer to Ao, or are at least under him. Ao governs Realmspace. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Mar 2020 18:04:49 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 18:35:42
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Sure, I remember the comic for example, and some other sources. It is just odd that at least the Celestial Emperor is seemingly seriously considered to be an overgod.
Is it really just the material discussed here within that is available? I just have this feeling the Celestial Emperor is an overgod.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't think they are overgods in the same way Ao is. They're more the pantheons of their respective regions. I think they still answer to Ao, or are at least under him. Ao governs Realmspace.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 13:41:56
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In fact, the 2e FR campaign boxed set states that other pantheons seem to have other overpowers beyond Ao, citing the entities cpthero2 mentioned above. Considering the different "Spheres of Godly Influence" seen in 2e "Faiths & Avatars", one could assume that each zone could be controlled by its own overgod, or by Ao in a different guise.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 14:46:57
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Page 15 of Faiths & Avatars:
"Ao is the only over-power. He has dominion over all of Abeir-Torils pantheons, human or nonhuman, in all spheres of influence. However, he has only been seen in the bounds of Faerūn during the Time of Troubles, and he apparently is much more circumspect in his dealings in other regions of Abeir-Toril, as most other regions have never heard of him."
So Fate, for example, may be over the Zakharan pantheon, but still answers to Ao. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 16:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 15 of Faiths & Avatars:
(...)
So Fate, for example, may be over the Zakharan pantheon, but still answers to Ao.
Or is Ao under a different guise.
EDIT:
OTHER OVER-POWERS
Ao appears to be responsible for the major gods of the Realms (the greater, intermediate, and lesser powers listed earlier in this chapter). In addition, there seem to be other over-powers in other pantheons alien to those commonly found in Faerūn.
(...)
The question of whether these over-gods are merely different versions of the same god Ao or are part of a committee of over-gods assigned their mortal parishes in different regions is a matter of theology best suited to sages. And, say the priests, more luck to them.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, Running the Realms booklet, p. 61 |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 13 Mar 2020 16:19:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:37:16
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I was always under the impression Ao was the overgod of Realmspace, which would include all of Toril, not just Faerun. You have the greater powers of various pantheons, but they all ultimately answer to Ao.
But it sounds like there could be other over-gods who are sharing his space (assuming they aren't also Ao in a different guise)? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:40:59
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| Btw, can you get the Running the Realms book by itself? I think I found it on Amazon, though the image is unavailable. Is it 2e, 3e? I think the publication was 1992. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 20:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Btw, can you get the Running the Realms book by itself? I think I found it on Amazon, though the image is unavailable. Is it 2e, 3e? I think the publication was 1992.
It was part of a boxed set. I do occasionally see the books being sold individually, on eBay -- but I also see the entire set there, as well.
You can also buy the pdf from DriveThruRPG.com |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:04:45
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Yes, that booklet is from the boxed set.
And given the current bid on that boxed set, I'm tempted to get another copy! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:09:29
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| There was another selling the boxed set, so I decided to buy it lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 09:18:06
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Why ever would you not want the boxed set (unless you own it and just want a backup booklet within it)?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 15:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Why ever would you not want the boxed set (unless you own it and just want a backup booklet within it)?
Best regards,
I did just say I bought it lol
I mostly buy source books for lore purposes, as I haven't had many opportunities to play D&D, so buying a whole box set isn't always beneficial for me. But the contents of this intrigued me, and I am always hungry for lore, so I bought it (I also recently bought Laeral Silverhand's Explorer's Kit). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 20 Mar 2020 16:00:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 23:56:25
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I'd categorize the Lady of Pain (in Sigil) and Anubis (on the Astral) as overgod entities, along with Ptah (as mentioned in my post above).
Because they all have absolute supremacy in their domains, a higher order of power than any interloping power (or interloping overpower) can command. They all are truly immortal in their domains. And they all have direct access to any other domain (every plane, every world) in the entire D&D cosmos.
Primus (the First Modron) of Mechanus might be an overgod of sorts. Some planeslore asserts that the cosmos were created by Primus imposing order and structure on primeval chaos. Whether this is true or not, it is evident that Primus wields absolute power on the entire plane of Mechanus and his power extends to many planes or worlds beyond Mechanus. No other deity has such uncontested and absolute claim over an entire outer plane.
The "High God" of Krynn might also be an overgod, of stature similar to Ao.
And the dualistic Ouroboros "World Serpent" might also be an overgod - perhaps the first overgod - although perhaps also the first (and only) "dead/destroyed" overgod after splitting into Jazirian/Asmodeus. (Anubis is also "dead", but in a very different way.)
This overgod identity admittedly relies on only one myth from only one source (Planes of Hell) - so it is technically published canon but it is also inconsistent (and somewhat contradictory) with all other published canon - it's often treated as apocryphal canon by fans.
It could be argued that certain demihuman/monstrous deities - like Corelllon, Moraddin, Gruumsh, and even Lolth/Lloth - are all overgods. Insofar as their power extends everywhere their species exist, their mythology and peoples have impacted countless worlds. With only the powers intrinsic to their universal archetypes - without relying on any cosmic constructs (like Mount Olympus or the Ygdrasil Tree) as vehicles for their power.
And Asmodeus could be an overgod.
Some people (and some canon sources) are quite indignant or vehemently opposed to categorizing Asmodeus as any sort of divine/godlike being. And some canon firmly asserts that Asmodeus wsnts nothing to do with the limitations/dependencies inherent to assuming divine station. And of course 4E publisjed its own ideas about Asmodeus being a deity (which would technically make it the most valid canon, until overwritten by something newer).
But the bottom line is that Asmodeus is absolute and ultimate ruler of the Nine Hells. He commands the obedience of every devil in the D&D cosmos. And he has no small power over countless souls on countless worlds. I'd argue that Asmodeus is an overgod. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 13:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 15 of Faiths & Avatars:
(...)
So Fate, for example, may be over the Zakharan pantheon, but still answers to Ao.
Or is Ao under a different guise.
EDIT:
OTHER OVER-POWERS
Ao appears to be responsible for the major gods of the Realms (the greater, intermediate, and lesser powers listed earlier in this chapter). In addition, there seem to be other over-powers in other pantheons alien to those commonly found in Faerūn.
(...)
The question of whether these over-gods are merely different versions of the same god Ao or are part of a committee of over-gods assigned their mortal parishes in different regions is a matter of theology best suited to sages. And, say the priests, more luck to them.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, Running the Realms booklet, p. 61
As I said previously in other threads, I prefer to view Ao as having limits to his power. I also view a lot of the things that he does as possibly taking a lot of planning, staging, OR taking advantage of circumstances to conflate his power. Therefore, in my view, I don't see Ao as the overpower over say the Maztican Pantheon or anything in Anchorome for the most part. To this I would point out that we don't hear of the Maztican gods descending to Toril during the ToT.
That being said, how can we USE this, because that's the most important part? Well, I and others wonder if the ToT was some staging point leading INTO the spellplague. As if Ao knew something was coming and he needed all the gods kicked out of heaven so that he could "reboot" his systems or somesuch without destroying them. For instance, the Mulan gods suddenly found their outer domains accessible to them after the ToT, and many other previously Toril bound deities also had been moved from the face of Toril to the outer planes (such as Mielikki, Eldath, etc...). We also hear of other overpowers possibly doing something similar (for instance, the Celestial Bureaucracy is said to have simply come to Toril and holed up together for a time, so perhaps their overpower was more informative to them of changes he had to employ and why they needed to descend, unlike lying Ao). Perhaps OTHER Overpowers kicked out their "deities"/"powers" later on.... for instance the whole Qotal/Zaltec descended into the world happened literally a handful of years after the ToT
. and we know the spirits of Anchorome kind of started taking more of a hand in their worshippers lives around this time too. So, it comes down to "was the time of troubles really for some other purpose, and did it have something to do with the looming convergence of Abeir and Toril on the horizon"? Given that the Spellplague had much to do with 2 deities who only gained their positions AFTER the ToT, it does kind of make me feel like they were setup as "Patsies" or placeholders. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 17:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd categorize the Lady of Pain (in Sigil) and Anubis (on the Astral) as overgod entities, along with Ptah (as mentioned in my post above).
Because they all have absolute supremacy in their domains, a higher order of power than any interloping power (or interloping overpower) can command. They all are truly immortal in their domains. And they all have direct access to any other domain (every plane, every world) in the entire D&D cosmos.
Primus (the First Modron) of Mechanus might be an overgod of sorts. Some planeslore asserts that the cosmos were created by Primus imposing order and structure on primeval chaos. Whether this is true or not, it is evident that Primus wields absolute power on the entire plane of Mechanus and his power extends to many planes or worlds beyond Mechanus. No other deity has such uncontested and absolute claim over an entire outer plane.
The "High God" of Krynn might also be an overgod, of stature similar to Ao.
And the dualistic Ouroboros "World Serpent" might also be an overgod - perhaps the first overgod - although perhaps also the first (and only) "dead/destroyed" overgod after splitting into Jazirian/Asmodeus. (Anubis is also "dead", but in a very different way.)
This overgod identity admittedly relies on only one myth from only one source (Planes of Hell) - so it is technically published canon but it is also inconsistent (and somewhat contradictory) with all other published canon - it's often treated as apocryphal canon by fans.
It could be argued that certain demihuman/monstrous deities - like Corelllon, Moraddin, Gruumsh, and even Lolth/Lloth - are all overgods. Insofar as their power extends everywhere their species exist, their mythology and peoples have impacted countless worlds. With only the powers intrinsic to their universal archetypes - without relying on any cosmic constructs (like Mount Olympus or the Ygdrasil Tree) as vehicles for their power.
And Asmodeus could be an overgod.
Some people (and some canon sources) are quite indignant or vehemently opposed to categorizing Asmodeus as any sort of divine/godlike being. And some canon firmly asserts that Asmodeus wsnts nothing to do with the limitations/dependencies inherent to assuming divine station. And of course 4E publisjed its own ideas about Asmodeus being a deity (which would technically make it the most valid canon, until overwritten by something newer).
But the bottom line is that Asmodeus is absolute and ultimate ruler of the Nine Hells. He commands the obedience of every devil in the D&D cosmos. And he has no small power over countless souls on countless worlds. I'd argue that Asmodeus is an overgod.
I see overgods as being deities that are above the pantheons they rule. Not just on top (like Zeus) but actually on an entirely separate level, beyond the pantheons -- much like we've seen with Ao.
Going by that definition, most of the deities you list wouldn't be overgods -- they certainly have total dominance within their respective areas, but I see that as being their portfolio. The Lady of Pain doesn't rule a pantheon, for example, but like other deities in other worlds, she has total control over her portfolio -- it's just that her portfolio is an area, instead of a concept. (Thinking further on it, I think the Lady of Pain is a jailer -- Sigil is kind of a planar anomaly, and it's referred to as "The Cage"... I think the ban on deities is part of what keeps the prisoner contained.)
Ptah is kind of a unique case. He's not an overgod, in that he doesn't rule over everything in his territory -- but he's got one of the largest territories of all deities. His universal reach is something other deities lack, even though he doesn't do much beyond what any other greater power would do within their geographical areas of influence.
Asmodeus (who will never be a deity in my Realms) is another unique case. Yeah, he rules the Hells, but his focus is on the fiendish hierarchy. I'm not an expert on planar lore, but he seems to let deities resident in the Hells do their own thing, so long as they leave his hierarchy alone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Mar 2020 04:33:13 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 20:28:24
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Oh, and on the previous question of "was the ToT initiated so that Ao could initiate something that he needed the gods kicked out for"... I've got a proposition. Maybe it was so that he could tear down the Imaskari Godswall. Maybe they needed to ALL be on Toril as "lesser avatars" inhabiting mortal forms so that he could tear it down. Helm was allowed to stay because he was standing on the border on the celestial staircase and therefore he wouldn't be affected because of circumstances that the god of defense wouldn't realize.
Why would Ao do this? What if that Imaskari godswall being up when Abeir and Toril resynch would affect him.. possibly kicking HIM out of the crystal sphere. He is after all still a "god" even if its an overgod.
Hmmm, and during the ToT the Mulan manifestations "went dormant". It might be interesting if when the godswall got dropped, the actual manifestations themselves were sent to Abeir ahead of their followers (whether by Ao, Ptah, etc...). Maybe even if someone had searched the burial tombs of the Untheric gods they might have found them empty. Meanwhile the dropping of the godswall allowed the outer planar versions of the gods to connect with the followers of Mulhorand and Unther.
I wonder by the way if Iakhovas (the shark "entity" who is kind of like a primordial from the threat from the sea series) came over FROM Abeir after the godswall dropped. Maybe his whole main reason for coming over was to set off the volcano on "the ship of the gods" island (as part of the chain of events that causes the merging to occur possibly... ).
Just another wild theory to possibly use.
Oh, and as far as other overpowers... I'd bet Kukul (who may be Jazirian), Ao, Io/Asgorath/Asgoroth, Fate, and the Celestial Emperor might all be separate entities. Ptah fits too in an odd way. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Ao and Io were "together" and got split. There may be another overgod named EiEiO. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Mar 2020 21:08:14 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 22:24:03
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Io/Asgorath must be a different entity than Ao for sure. He not only appears in myths and legends of many worlds, he also represents a concept that surpasses Ao, Lady of Pain, and other beings attached to certain places. Io/Asgorath is the "All-Dragon" or the "World-Dragon", a concept of "selfness" that birth and binds all cosmologies and planes.
I guess this means that the All-Dragon/World Dragon must be a different entity than the World Serpent, as well. Which, to me, make sense: the All-Dragon represents the Self, while the World Serpent represents the "multiplicity of being" (as per Monster Mythology). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Mar 2020 22:25:03 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 23:10:12
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
haha...I missed that. NICE! Victory for you! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ao's Boss
