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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2012 : 23:45:45
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This may turn into a semi long thread, I will try to not let it get to looooooong. I have been playing AD&D off and on since the original Red Box. I am a 1st edition player that used Unearthed Arcana "with some select 2nd edition stuff such as certain spells and magical items". My group uses the same rules as I use and 1 of my group members has been playing about as long as I have.
Anyways, we have not played this great game in like 8-9 years ... yea it has been a while. Well, we are reforming our old group ... ages range from 22-57 years of age. We want to throw ourselves back into the game. For a while computer games just made it so much more easier to game that AD&D fell off to the side. We hope to correct that problem.
Where our problem is at .... we cannot decide which campaign world to play in. Some may think this should not be a problem, but when I DM a campaign, I start everything out fresh and follow a campaign timeline. To me it adds flavor to the adventures knowing everything you do can and will affect the campaign world you game in. This is where we are at now ........
Dragonlance:(We have never actually gamed in this campaign world) This campaign world is by far our favorite world. The timeline is so rich, it feels comfortable .... I guess this comes from the rich stories printed in there novels. Its got a tight timeline which we really love, we even thought it would be good to start out after The War of the Lance, 5 years before the Dragons of Summer Flame book and work on a new timeline from that point in time. I am not sure how to explain it, but the world just seems comfortable, it seems cozy, like everything you do means something BUT #1 there is not anything published (as in) modules for this type camapaign because pretty much every serious adventure module that was printed was for the War of the Lance which basically is the novels and to do these adventures would just ruin the campaign setting because the heroes are SUPPOSED to do that adventure /sigh I dunno, it is all so complicated. The main thing I love about Dragonlance is the Knights looks like KNIGHTS, with the fancy armor etc etc, Wizards look like Wizards and there is even a more strict line of use for Magic here, Priests really means something here. Dragons .... well they are actually DRAGONS .... they attack cities and are not hunted down by groups like you always read about in adventures.
Forgotten Realms (We have adventured in this campaign setting a little, not a lot) The Realms has a lot of unique areas and has a lot of history and lore, this much is for sure but the world is just so HUGE, like any one major event that might happen would not really affect anything overall in the world. Plus there are not a LOT of adventure modules printed for this world, I mean there are "some" but not a lot. I just am not sure about this world, it is hard to explain.
The World of Greyhawk This is the world we did most of our adventuring with in our AD&D past. it just has so many printed modules and has tons of accessories, but .... The past history archives are just so extensive, the Ancient history of the migrations etc etc are just beyond me. I am a little overwhelmed by this world I guess you could say. I understand whats going on pretty much, but the detailed history escapes me. Sure we played in this campaign world several times before, The Slave Lords, The Giants and the Drow series ahhh what fun, but the world just seems clunky ... seems like everywhere you look there is a Kingdom ... The Realms and even Dragonlance both have massive amounts of areas that are wild, open for whatever where as Greyhawk seems packed from one point to the other.
Currently we are looking at Dragonlance but I am wondering if thats the better choice. I am posting this on the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms boards with the question: Why would you say this campaign world is better than the other, basically I would request you guys explain to me why this is the world we should start a serious campaign up in. ok I will hush for now and will just see what type of replies I get from this. We are just a little confused and are looking for some focus.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:32:12
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Go Dragonlance. They need all the help they can get!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Go Dragonlance. They need all the help they can get!
-- George Krashos
That really is not productive to what this post is about sir.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Given that you posted this on a Forgotten Realms website, I am obviously biased in favor of the Forgotten Realms.
That is the entire point behind this post, I WANT prople to reply to my question and be as biased as possible, I want to hear why you love this world so much. |
Edited by - Damaja on 31 May 2012 00:36:12 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Damaja
Forgotten Realms (We have adventured in this campaign setting a little, not a lot) The Realms has a lot of unique areas and has a lot of history and lore, this much is for sure but the world is just so HUGE, like any one major event that might happen would not really affect anything overall in the world. Plus there are not a LOT of adventure modules printed for this world, I mean there are "some" but not a lot. I just am not sure about this world, it is hard to explain.
Let me sell you the Forgotten Realms:
The Realms IS huge...and that is what is best. It offers a variety of play that you can't find in any other campaign world.
You want to play in a civilized land of knights and such? Fine, play in Cormyr. Want to play Barbarians? Play in The North. Want your characters living in a magical empire? Halruaa is there for you. Want to go dungeon delving? Tens of thousands of years of dungeons all over the place from fallen civilizations.
HOWEVER, and this is the best thing, you can put whatever you want INTO the Forgotten Realms with little effort. As an example:
The Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16585) is where my next Forgotten Realms game is going to start (and maybe stay depending on the players). I'm playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as well...and so I'll only truly be using the original setting material all designed around "1e" AD&D with, like you, some few things I like from later editions.
The other amazing thing about the Forgotten Realms is that it actually DOES have a large number of modules that have been made for it! Even better, you can use any module you can think of in the setting as well...with only a minor twist here or there to make it fit.
Want to play the Temple of Elemental Evil again? It would work nicely in Faerun as a modified Moander (the god of rot and corruption) taking place of the demon currently imprisoned within.
Even if you don't want to play modules from other worlds, there is such a wealth of information about the Realms that you have only to look:
http://www.candlekeep.com/campaign/adventures.htm
A short list as well:
Dreams of the Red Wizards
Moonshae Isles
The Savage Frontier
Empires of the Sands
Sea of Fallen Stars
Waterdeep and the North
The Magister
Under Illefarn
Heroes' Lorebook
Lords of Darkness
Ruins of Adventure
and ETC.
This short list is all full of TONS of adventure ideas...and that isn't even counting all the old Dungeon, Dragon and Polyhedron magazine articles that you can easily gain access to and pull out DOZENS (if not over hundreds?) of adventures!
You stated you worry that your players actions won't be well noticed? Well, take into account a little group called the Knights of Myth Drannor! I think their leader is a tenth level ranger as of the start of 2nd Edition, a 9th level wizard, a 6th level wizard, a 7th level rogue and etc (I think). However, these heroes are storied ALREADY in the Forgotten Realms...known from Waterdeep to Thay and beyond!
It is up to you and your players to determine what impact they have on the Forgotten Realms. One of my favorite campaigns of all time I ran in the Realms.
Mort "Dragonslayer" (LN dwarven Ftr) ended up reclaiming Tethyamar!
Malik "The Freed" of Calimshan (CN human Ftr/Thief/Cleric/Wizard!) made a play for a kingdom in The North...he failed, but his legend is GREAT (and not just in Malik's eyes!).
Raven (CG female elf ranger) ended up as THE defender of the Elven Court (though she didn't want it...it wanted her!).
Myste (CN female drow wizard/thief) ended up as an "ally" of the Zhentarim and a major player in the Moonsea area underdark.
ETC...
None of these players reached Epic Levels...they were just Player Characters that were driven to do certain things. Mort, though named a Dragonslayer, was actually far more famous for being willing to shave his own beard to save his party...something unheard of by his kinsmen; but something that came to give him great respect among non-dwarves. He may have eventually re-founded Tethyamar, he was originally a nearly exiled and beardless dwarf scouring the lands of The North as a sellsword only...VERY distantly related to the Iron House.
The Forgotten Realms is SOOOOO deep with history and lore; but the great thing is that it IS the FORGOTTEN REALMS...and so you aren't required to know all this history to play there. Not everyone is a sage of the world!
The common farmer in The Dales has heard of Calimshan, sure...but to him it is a land of Genies and Fell magic from a long dead Shoon Empire! Conversely, a slave in Calimshan has heard of The Dales, but to him it is a paradise land of faeries and elves where men are given land to farm for free and have little want or worry!
The Forgotten Realms can be anything you want it to be...it is the best choice by far.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:40:22
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Dalor Darden I offer you a heart felt thanks. THAT is what I wanted to read, THAT is what I want to see someone do, SELL ME on this campaign setting. I want to hear what others have to say as well but you sir did a fantastic job.
:) thanks I enjoyed reading that. |
Edited by - Damaja on 31 May 2012 00:40:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Damaja
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Go Dragonlance. They need all the help they can get!
-- George Krashos
That really is not productive to what this post is about sir.
But it is. George is saying that Dragonlance NEEDS help; it isn't nearly as rich as the Forgotten Realms (not to put it down by me, the Chronicles are my favorite novels of all time perhaps).
George's sarcasm may not be seen as humor full...but his point is spot on: The Forgotten Realms is where you are right now; you aren't going to find many here that aren't going to be biased against your other choices. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:59:16
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| I guess it was the way he said it. He could have explained himself a tad better instead of trying to be cute :) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 01:16:59
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| George...cute? I didn't know Australians could be cute? Ruggedly handsome perhaps... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 22:27:30
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| well ok then lol |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 23:20:54
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I was a GH DM for years before becoming a Forgotten Realms DM (and it was already several years into the setting's published development - I did NOT want to switch).
I loved GH, and hated FR for stealing away it's glory; that is TRULY how I felt. Then I was forced (by a gang of younglings I was trying to teach the game to) to run The Realms. At first it was against my will, but the more I learned, the more I wanted to know. This continues to this day - it never ends. Somewhere along the way I fell in love. You never forget your first, but its your last that counts.
I played in Mystara a few times, in the OD&D days, but I barely remember what we did, and I don't even think it was called Mystara back then (just 'the known world'). I love a lot about that setting as well, but it feels... unfinished. I can't explain it - maybe because it's missing the 'Advanced' part of D&D (which really isn't true). I still borrow a LOT from that setting - its got some neat stuff found nowhere else.
Dragonlance... what can I say? I played one (short-lived) campaign in it, and ran into the exact problem you are talking about - it felt like we were all just reading a script. The DM would not let us stray an inch from the storyline, and it grew tedious FAST. I blame the DM, but since you have much the same feeling, maybe it was more then just his fault. It has some pretty cool things I like to steal, but the setting as a whole doesn't thrill me.
So, since you seem to have much the same background as me, and have the same feelings about those worlds (for the most part), I would say take off your shoes and wade in our pool for awhile. Get your feet wet.
Pretty soon, you'll be splashing around, and wonder why you've ever been anywhere else. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jun 2012 05:16:29 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 00:35:24
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I hope the "scripted setting" problem from Dragonlance isn't carried into the Realms, for those people who would prefer to set their campaign calendar back. The problem was even evident when playing within the ancient Arcane Age subsettings.
I've got a huge pile of books which describe the Realms setting in all sorts of fine detail. Perhaps you do, too, or perhaps you have a mountain of books from Greyhawk or some other place. Contrary to what the brand designers might claim, a fantasy setting is not a like a piece of software, you don't need to constantly update and upgrade to the latest version to run it.
If you're starting from nothing with all options open then go with the mainstream - Forgotten Realms. Be warned that published Realms now has intricate backstory, history, and detail which vastly exceeds published Greyhawk - if you find it all overwhelming or insist on maintaining "perfect" canon at your table then good luck, you will indeed be overwhelmed and drowned under an ocean of detail. I personally don't care for perfect alignment of my canon with Wizbro's canon, when things are different or "wrong" (in either version) then I just adapt as needed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Jun 2012 00:37:42 |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 00:47:05
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| One thing I hate is what they did to the FR timeline, pushing it 100 years forward and totally screwing everything up. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 05:23:54
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Preaching to the choir here.
But according to what we've been hearing, they are going to try for a more 'open' timeline, so you play in the period you feel the most comfortable. just ignore 4e lore if it bothers you, and play in the 1e/2e/3e era.
Or conversely, you might be better-off using the 4e era instead, since there isn't nearly as much stuff you need to know (this is what we've been told - how adding another century of history on top of the already humongous amount of lore makes it 'easier' is beyond me). If anything, 4e made the setting twice as hard to use, since so many things got retconned - now you have two sets of material you need to know, and it conflicts like crazy, so you spend more time pulling your hair out then actually playing.
I guess you should just get yourself a copy of the Old grey Box and take it from there - ignore everything that came after, until you want to know more (and you will). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 22:55:42
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I'm gonna speak up for Oerth.quote:
Originally posted by Damaja
The past history archives are just so extensive, the Ancient history of the migrations etc etc are just beyond me. I am a little overwhelmed by this world I guess you could say. I understand whats going on pretty much, but the detailed history escapes me.
That doesn't matter; it escapes everyone but scholars and savants in the setting too. Where Ed Greenwood has a joy in worldbuilding partly for its own sake, Gary Gygax nonsensed the very idea of timelines. You only need to understand the vague history of the area your campaign's set.quote:
... seems like everywhere you look there is a Kingdom ... The Realms and even Dragonlance both have massive amounts of areas that are wild, open for whatever where as Greyhawk seems packed from one point to the other.
Oerik has more large nations than Faerûn and is less politically divided, but neither world has any shortage of wild, open land. One of Gary's key worldbuilding ideas is the borderland (as in Keep on the Borderlands) between civilization and wilderness, and the kingdoms don't solidly control all their nominal territory: there is much borderland and wilderness within them. One of the things that made this clear to me was Gary's Yggsburgh book which shows by example what a few of those Darlene Pekul hexes look like up close: each contains a multitude of terrain types, small unmarked settlements, dangerous and unmapped woodland, and so on. Much the same is true of the 900-square-mile square inches on the Realms maps; in each case the simplified bird's-eye overview conceals quite how much land this is in a world without cars or trains.
This is really an aside, but to understand what Gary had in mind with Greyhawk you need to read the 1980/1983 works as a supplement to his rulebooks and modules, especially ones like the DMG with a lot of implicit setting texture. The 2nd edition Greyhawk products went in a different direction, turning it into more of an exercise in po-faced quasi-historical mock scholarship than Gary 's world.quote:
Why would you say this campaign world is better than the other, basically I would request you guys explain to me why this is the world we should start a serious campaign up in.
For me it comes down to tone: the three worlds' flavours of mid-twentieth-century sword and sorcery, picaresque swashbuckling underlain by intrigue and with flashes of poetic idealism, and Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy put them in fairly mutually exclusive niches (though with more overlap between the first two). |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 05:23:18
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Well for me personally its Forgotten Realms. I first started out reading Warcraft books, and loved them, followed World of Warcraft almost religiously and then even managed to play for a little while. Some time later I got RAS Siege of Darkness, and then it was a free fall of getting other novels which then introduced me to the game world. Call me bias but I prefer 3.5e/3e with 2e but not 4e(kinda ruined everything)
I think it was more the lore of the world, the magic or even...well like Markustay pointed out, I am swimming in the FR pond and I don't even remember why...
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 05:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
For me it comes down to tone: the three worlds' flavours of mid-twentieth-century sword and sorcery, picaresque swashbuckling underlain by intrigue and with flashes of poetic idealism, and Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy put them in fairly mutually exclusive niches (though with more overlap between the first two).
 What in the sam-hell does "Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy" mean? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 09:12:33
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From what you say in the initial post it seems like you are all most eager to play in Krynn, so why not?
And I am curious; what products for the three settings do you have at hand? The Grey box and the old Greyhawk box gives plenty of leeway for you and your group to adapt and modify it to fit your needs. And the old D&D and Greyhawk modules can easily be used with the Realms too. Even most of the Dragonlance elements you like can be spread throughout the settings. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 15:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
And I am curious; what products for the three settings do you have at hand?
Pretty much everything that has ever been printed for this game for every edition. My game room is a serious fire hazard lol |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 16:38:05
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Oi Vey
I had a game room like that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Damaja
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 16:28:36
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This is kind of like coming to Godiva factory, and asking what kind of chocolate people like.
The only emphasis I would add is that there are over a hundred novels chronicling the recent history of the Realms, and over a dozen that cater to it’s ancient history.
Add to that that there is enough room to squeeze in what you like from other worlds.
It seems that you lean to the Dragons, and I would say the Year of Rouge Dragons trilogy (by the rather awesome Richard Lee Byers), along with the two Realms of Dragons Anthologies (by various), might be of interest.
That along with a series of articles form the Wizards site published pre-YoRD
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/wn |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 16:42:24
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I can’t tell you how many times I add to a scroll, scurry back down to the Candlekeep basement, and then get hit by a “Oooooh yeah”…
Here’s the win for why you go with the Realms…
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20050428a
That is to a freebie PDF detailing “The North”. Originally a boxed set, it contains details, maps. It's simply lovely.
If you download it and give it 5 minutes of browsing you will be sold.
Edit: Links died.
Thanks to Dalor for the heads up. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
Edited by - Thrasymachus on 04 Jun 2012 04:09:17 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
I can’t tell you how many times I add to a scroll, scurry back down to the Candlekeep basement, and then get hit by a “Oooooh yeah”…
Here’s the win for why you go with the Realms…
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20050428a
That is to a freebie PDF detailing “The North”. Originally a boxed set, it contains details, maps. It's simply lovely.
If you download it and give it 5 minutes of browsing you will be sold.
Those download links on that page are broken...I think WotC removed the content from the links. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What in the sam-hell does "Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy" mean?
-I am guessing Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch, Harry Reid, and Glenn Beck fighting Goblins in an obvious Mordor analogue. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What in the sam-hell does "Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy" mean?
-I am guessing Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch, Harry Reid, and Glenn Beck fighting Goblins in an obvious Mordor analogue.
I can actually picture that in my head. Mitt is the party Paladin, Orrin is the grumpy wizard, Harry is the party cleric and Glenn is the wise-cracking rogue! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What in the sam-hell does "Mormonized Tolkien-derived high fantasy" mean?
-I am guessing Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch, Harry Reid, and Glenn Beck fighting Goblins in an obvious Mordor analogue.
I can actually picture that in my head. Mitt is the party Paladin, Orrin is the grumpy wizard, Harry is the party cleric and Glenn is the wise-cracking rogue!
Good one sir!
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 06:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And let's not go any further down this road, please.
True...I shouldn't jest...
However, I actually LIKE those guys. Especially Glenn Beck...he is a hoot! A loon as well, but funny as all get out!
Besides, I'm Mormon (well, officially anyway; but especially non-practicing...) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 08:50:27
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As has been stated before, coming to a Realms site will get you reasons why the Realms is the highly superior choice. Anything I have to say on the Realms has already been said, so I will not re-hash someone else's efforts.
Greyhawk always seemed...I dunno...'generic' to me. It wasn't bad, by any means, and I have had intrepid souls that have spent some time wandering Oerth, certainly, but I can safely say that I will never again have someone pick up a sword and wander Furyondy or the Bone March again. The romance just isn't there.
Dragonlance...meh. I like the world immensely (well, Ansalon, anyways - Taladas sort of irritated me), but player characters never seemed to me to be those who are destined to make a splash. The Companions of the Lance were the definitive heroes of Krynn, and anything anyone else does is, in my mind, doomed to be overshadowed by them (including those of their own offspring).
Other worlds:
Mystara (the 'Known World') is a good choice, particularly if you have access to the Hollow World and Red Steel supplements. Gazetteers on the nations of the world are wonderfully done.
And apart from the Realms, the only other published TSR/WotC world I will run a campaign in, Birthright, by Rich Baker and Colin McComb. The lands of Cerilia possess a feeling of 'ancient' that no other setting has, which only our beloved Faerun even comes close to matching. Even the at-times rather dry optional domain mechanics cannot take this feeling away, and I can lose myself for hours with just a 96-page campaign manual.
Obviously, I have gone afield from the three options, but I felt it would be appropriate to include the others regardless, especially those I consider quality work.
- OMH |
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Need Help Deciding ...
