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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If Lolth and Shar are the same, then why would "Sholth" be trying to build another Weave, when she's already made one?
The characteristics of the normal Weave and the Shadow Weave are opposite in many ways. Shar is obviously unable to modify the qualities of the SW that it may also have qualities of the W. The two Weaves cannot be merged. Having understood this limitation, she must have thought it imperative to either kill Mystra and take over the W, or create another W via the works of an aspect (Lolth). Sounds likely, but I personally don't like it. I'd rather have them engage in a cat fight than be one and the same. In the same way I'd rather have the Shadovar and the drow kill each other than be allies.
[Edit: Spelling] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 May 2012 05:19:12 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:33:26
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A possibility exists, which I shall now give voice to. Lalth isn't truely interested in the weave, but in the unfolding of events that such a bid would create.
This is an argument holding A to be true, and then leading back to A.
If chaos is an overarching goal, along with domination, is it possible that she is attempting to ingender more chaos through the response that others will give when they find out she will try and capture the weave (argument from A to injunction 1).
The others response will further create chaos both among her followers, but above the surfice world as well, and increase the level of distrust placed on drow. Thus, making it increasingly difficult for more to flee and leave her following (both injunctions satasfied with Demorgons).
The resulting rereorganization of various kingdoms could be a power play on her part, to move things in an attempt to those that can, she believes, be more easily minipulated/ removing powerful members from position, etc (from injunctions to main argument, process of Transformational logic 1 used).
All being an illusion towards a goal, which might be to put others off their guard by thinking she's been handled, when she makes her actual move towards her intended goal (Return to A).
You can follow the argument through the logical short hand, or so I hope. Again, this an argument from an assumption, which is bound by all the short comings that such an argument always has. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 08:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Hm... Then, as you pointed, maybe a drow-Shade alliance might have the effect of rallying the ''good'' aligned powers of the Realms under a single banner (at least temporarily) and weaken the super-powerful and evil presences that rose on Faerun after the Spellplague, lessening the ''pseudo-grimdark'' feeling the setting acquired (at least, it did so from my point of view). This would be a consequence I'd welcome, even if the huge good vs bad war thing is a bit cliché and unoriginal.
IMO, it's very unlikely. Shade chooses its allies well---specifically, those they can easily manipulate, like the Sembians. The drow are hardly that.
Also, Telamont has no plan of sharing the bounty, so to speak. He wishes to rule the world, however ambitious that sounds, and having drow as co-rulers has never crossed his mind, and likely never will.
Lastly and most importantly, do recall that the goal of Telamont, and by extension, the entire empire of Reborn Netheril, does not actually jive with Shar's. What would the Most High rule if all the world turns into dusts? Ultimately, he'd one day sever his rather loose ties with the Goddess of Loss, partly for his selfish ambition and to avenge his wife's death. He had already defied Shar's will once. He could do it again.
Good point. Still,
quote:
Sure, as I wrote previously, I think it's likely that they would work separately too. But it doesn't change the fact that they'd work for the same goal and for the same ''boss'', shifting the balance of power even more towards Shar/Lolth and their ''evil side'' of the spectrum.
Maybe, an eventual ''Shlolth'' would have them working each on their own but for the same goal, unknowingly (even though some individuals, like Telamont, could realize it at a certain point) and this wouldn't change much about the practical result for the setting, as I see it.
@Sightless
quote:
A possibility exists, which I shall now give voice to. Lalth isn't truely interested in the weave, but in the unfolding of events that such a bid would create.
This is an argument holding A to be true, and then leading back to A.
If chaos is an overarching goal, along with domination, is it possible that she is attempting to ingender more chaos through the response that others will give when they find out she will try and capture the weave (argument from A to injunction 1).
The others response will further create chaos both among her followers, but above the surfice world as well, and increase the level of distrust placed on drow. Thus, making it increasingly difficult for more to flee and leave her following (both injunctions satasfied with Demorgons).
The resulting rereorganization of various kingdoms could be a power play on her part, to move things in an attempt to those that can, she believes, be more easily minipulated/ removing powerful members from position, etc (from injunctions to main argument, process of Transformational logic 1 used).
All being an illusion towards a goal, which might be to put others off their guard by thinking she's been handled, when she makes her actual move towards her intended goal (Return to A).
You can follow the argument through the logical short hand, or so I hope. Again, this an argument from an assumption, which is bound by all the short comings that such an argument always has.
This could be true, but I doubt that this Rise of the Underdark is being used by WotC as the basis for yet another RSE in Lolth sauce. Her grand plans are getting tiresome, at least to me. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 May 2012 08:30:09 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:15:01
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Is it already revealed which surface realms would be attacked by the drow? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 08:53:47
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They don't seem similar at all to me. Lolth wants power...Shar wants to destroy everything and return existence to nothingness (an evil Shiva) If nothing existed how could Lolth rule it all? Their ethos and character are not at all alike.
I think Sehanine exists in other universes, but couldn't exist in the realms because she was too similar to Selune. (BY DECREE OF AO!) By Lolth is unique and allowed to enter the world. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 10:13:42
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Actually, Sehanine wasn't similar to Selune. They shared only the ''Moons'' area of influence and nothing else.
Their flavor was quite different: Sehanine was the ''Lady of Dreams'', she who represented the mystic side of the elves; Selune is about travelers and -well- the Moons and the light. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 13:59:14
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In the novel Mistress of Night dreams play a large part in how Selune communicates with her followers.
Also she was once the Goddess of dreams, see page 51 of Netheril Empire of Magic. (And Shar was the Goddess of nightmares) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:02:45
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| Oh, I wasn't aware that Selune once was the goddess of dreams. Thanks for pointing it out. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2012 14:10:59 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:14:09
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| We must remember that corellon identified araushnee is a spirit destroying entity...a true tanari. And she does like destruction for its own sake.keep ever in mind that no one knows where araushnee came from.she appeared just in time to seduce corellon before sehanine/selune could get him. By the way I hate hearing lolth referred to as anyone's aspect..since she was created before the world of toril in dnd. Maybe shar is the aspect. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:31:42
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Araushnee was the elven deity of destiny and crafts. After she plotted to dethrone her consort, her punishment was banishment and the transformation into a demon. but she wasn't such before. Eventually, she managed to get her divine status back, overcoming what Corellon established for her.
Also, Lolth isn't about random destruction. She'd rather dominate things than destroy them.
Shar wouldn't mindlessly destroy either, her goal is the return to the nothingness that once was but her ways are subtle nonetheless (well, except the Spellplague consequences).
So, on this matter Lolth and Shar are far too different to be one single entity.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 May 2012 09:39:03 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:43:09
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I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
I'd still maintain a little bit of disbelief/skepticism here.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:57:44
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| It would take an extremly large explanatory leap for them to valadly sell that they are both the same thing. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 04:10:59
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| In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon) |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 09:26:13
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quote:
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
That's because her ways were leading her away from the path of the Tel'Quessir, not because she was already a demon.
quote:
I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
While from an in-setting point of view it is true that mortals have little real understanding about deities, as a reader I don't like this fact much. It holds potential, but on the other hand it looks like a tool for cheesy retcons to me, like: ''oh look, the Ladies of the Seldarine in truth never existed on Toril. They were other deities all along; it was the elves who were too stupid to notice it''.
I know that some people here proposed valid explanations to it, but this doesn't change the fact that -AFAIK- WotC didn't even bother to offer one, because they had that pretty weak excuse. I don't want this to happen again.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 May 2012 09:51:23 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 12:05:11
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quote:
I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
While from an in-setting point of view it is true that mortals have little real understanding about deities, as a reader I don't like this fact much. It holds potential, but on the other hand it looks like a tool for cheesy retcons to me, like: ''oh look, the Ladies of the Seldarine in truth never existed on Toril. They were other deities all along; it was the elves who were too stupid to notice it''.
I know that some people here proposed valid explanations to it, but this doesn't change the fact that -AFAIK- WotC didn't even bother to offer one, because they had that pretty weak excuse. I don't want this to happen again.
[/quote]
I completely agree with you on that. Its ridiculous to say that millions of elves over thousands of years didn't know who their Gods actually were.
This sort of mass deception hardly seems very " goodly" anyway. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
-Araushnee/Lolth did know that Realmspace existed before she was cast from the Seldarine. She was expelled in roughly -30,000 DR. Araushnee/Lolth first learned that Realmspace existed in -24,400 DR. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2012 : 02:25:22
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| Quite frankly, if they make Shar and Lolth the same... I think they've finally just lost their minds. Now, if they want to say Shar killed Lolth and took over her portfolios... that's different. But otherwise, what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? As someone else pointed out, their personalities and goals are vastly different. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2012 : 02:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[...]what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? [...]
No point (beside WotC preparing the way to get rid of the drow pantheon in the most profitable manner). Seriously, she put at stake so many of her followers (hence power) to do what? Separate her realm from the Demonweb pits? Cool... That was chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil (also, I've never understood how it increased her power). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jun 2012 02:40:08 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 15:32:28
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All of these revelations are very much a 4e thing. They are best to be avoided as they aren't true to the original Realms.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:12:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[...]what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? [...]
No point (beside WotC preparing the way to get rid of the drow pantheon in the most profitable manner). Seriously, she put at stake so many of her followers (hence power) to do what? Separate her realm from the Demonweb pits? Cool... That was chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil (also, I've never understood how it increased her power).
Actually, I could see a point in separating her realm from the abyss. In doing so, she to a small degree separates herself from being a demon with all the responsibilities/ hindrances that might go along with all of that. Plus, it would be a move towards making herself a more powerful deity, as she is perceived as no longer just another abyssal lord... and remember when you're talking god-power, perception is key.
So, all of that... I get... her and Shar being the same....yeah, not buying it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 19:17:56
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quote:
Actually, I could see a point in separating her realm from the abyss. In doing so, she to a small degree separates herself from being a demon with all the responsibilities/ hindrances that might go along with all of that. Plus, it would be a move towards making herself a more powerful deity, as she is perceived as no longer just another abyssal lord... and remember when you're talking god-power, perception is key.
So, all of that... I get... her and Shar being the same....yeah, not buying it.
Hmm... I don't think that Lolth was perceived as an Abyssal lord rather than a deity, but even if she was (among humans and other races, that is, drow already knew her nature), mortals wouldn't know that she separated her Realm from the Abyss anyway, and they wouldn't care at all. Besides, tbh I don't think that being a demon brings responsibilities (and surely way less than she already had as a deity). So, I still believe that it was a chaotic stupid act from an in setting PoV (also, a disappointing conclusion. All that mess for what? ''Hey! I'm moving to another house!'') and a way to simply dish out more novels for WotC.
About the topic of this thread, I don't think it'd be fitting, as I've already said many times. Having Shar somehow related with Lolth and her betrayal? Sure! Having them being the same deity? That wouldn't add anything to the setting, IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jun 2012 19:22:51 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 22:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
-Araushnee/Lolth did know that Realmspace existed before she was cast from the Seldarine. She was expelled in roughly -30,000 DR. Araushnee/Lolth first learned that Realmspace existed in -24,400 DR.
Shouldn't that be "did NOT know"? if she was expelled in -30,000 Dr, and learned of it in -24,000, then she was expelled LONG before she discovered it. Pre-DR dates run from high to low, not the other way around..... Just thought that should be cleared up. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Shar, Selune, Sehanine, Lolth
