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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 20:47:43
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Although that was a spur-of-the-moment comment, and was meant in jest, I HAVE used the Illuminati in some of my Planescape stuff (they are a secretive, almost unknown 'faction' in Sigil).
Since there are supposedly connections between the Illuminati and the Free-Masons (and old George was a big-time Mason), it would actually fit just fine in my own world-model. No reason why Realms intrigues have to stop at the border of the Crystal Sphere.
In fact, I have theorized that (D&D) Earth is a haven for many 'things' that have either been banished, or seeking asylum (sort of like how the MiB movies portray aliens), because of its low-magic limitations* makes it the perfect place to hide, and to imprison powerful magic-types (I use quite a bit from the Gothic Erath Gazeteer as model for my Earth's past.. along with a good dose of Marvel comics history).
Poor George Washington (formerly Jorgwa of Shington) was one of the last Scarlet Bards to be exiled from Thay when the Zulkirs felt the need to expunge the group (they suspected them of having been infiltrated by the Harpers). Sad story, really.
He befriended Benfra Nklin, Tinker Gnome extraordinaire - I thought this common knowledge.
 
*This has to do with ancient war between Lemuria and Atlantis, which destroyed the 'Mana Poles'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2012 19:19:10 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 05:04:19
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Evil is such a jejune term. Everyone has the potential for selfishness and greed, disregarding the feelings of others.
It doesn't invalidate everything else about them, their loyalties and allegiances, loves and likes.
Red Wizards are people like any other. They act according to their own moral compass, doing what they feel is right, what fits their cultural prejudices and their personal inclinations.
Since the culture they live in does not require them to buy into many of the polite fictions that characterise the ideal world of novel characters and cultural heroes of our Western world, they are likely to exhibit behaviour that appears callous and selfish to American readers. To an extent, this is true. From another perspective, our modern culture requires loud affirmation of principles that people rarely, if ever, observe in the breach.
In reality, people are far greyer than Disney and Hollywood would have us believe. Red Wizards are genuinely damaged in an emotional and moral sense by the society that they live in, but that society is no further from the real world than the idealised society of heroic fiction is. The reality is somewhere in between.
Of course there are Red Wizards that are honourable, decent people. If they are ruthless and capable of detachment and calculation that would horrify the naive, that does not make them evil. It just means they've survived a particularly harsh place and a harsh time.
By the same token, there are also Red Wizards who are truly evil. People can be evil and without a steady diet of lies and socialisation to convince us that this is wrong, more of us would succumb to temptation. Some people are bastards, always will be, and only the polite fictions that mark civilised society serve to keep them in check. If they no longer had to pretend, their bastardry would reach heights undreamed of.
All in all, though, it's a matter of degree. True evil exists in every society and in every society, people are mostly selfish and observe the 'decencies' only by social pressure. It's just that in some societies, the pressures are greater. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 26 Apr 2012 05:05:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 13:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide...
Lol, and here I thought I was one of the few who sees so many commonalities between the formation of America and America a few decades back with Thay. Put a dark twist and magic into it, and.... voila... Thay. Granted, its more from a technological or political perspective, but the two are similar concepts. Thay wanted freedom from religious persecution in their research. Thay is a powerful country agriculturally. Thay has great magical resources that can create many things that technology can do. Thay has the ability to supply severed amounts of "greatly" unskilled labor forces in the form of undead to perform projects that technological America would perform with heavy machinery. Thus, Thay's "peasantry" is more likely to be overseers, engineers, artists, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 14:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide...
Lol, and here I thought I was one of the few who sees so many commonalities between the formation of America and America a few decades back with Thay. Put a dark twist and magic into it, and.... voila... Thay. Granted, its more from a technological or political perspective, but the two are similar concepts. Thay wanted freedom from religious persecution in their research. Thay is a powerful country agriculturally. Thay has great magical resources that can create many things that technology can do. Thay has the ability to supply severed amounts of "greatly" unskilled labor forces in the form of undead to perform projects that technological America would perform with heavy machinery. Thus, Thay's "peasantry" is more likely to be overseers, engineers, artists, etc....
By the way, one of the things I had instituted in my games back in 2nd edition was the idea of Aulkirs (sub-schools of specialization which served the major schools of magic). When 3.5 edition came out and they introduced the new base classes, I rethought about this idea, because a lot of those base classes fit within the structure of certain of the schools. Just because someone may find the idea useful or it might be fun to discuss, I'll put my thoughts below.
From Tome of Magic, I can see pact magic as being a little researched field. However, I can see there being a small group of pact magi who are anima mages. Perhaps the lore of pact magic is found within the libraries of the schools of necromancy and conjuration. This lore dates back to one of the original founders of free Thay, Velsharoon.
Also from ToM, I can see there being those who study the combination of shadow magic within the school of illusion as noctumancers. I don't see Thay necessarily having truename magic though.
From heroes of Horror come two classes that just scream Thay to me. First, the archivist. I see Thay as being one of the few places in the realms where the archivists will have actually developed and thrived. This group would be tied to the schools of abjuration and divination, but only barely. They would not be tied to a specific deity (each person would serve their own patron, but the goals of the group wouldn't serve any one deity). I can see a "monastery" of archivists who serve Deneir, Oghma, or Azuth as their primary patron, with small shrines to Zann of Al-Qadim as well. Obviously, the mystic theurges of Thay would have a large percentage from this group.
Also from HoH, the dread necromancer is a perfect fit for Thay and an obvious sub-school within the school of necromancy. For those "nobles" who come from families who have typically served the school of necromancy, but lack the intellectual ability to become wizards, they may have the ability to become dread necromancers and thus have the ability to control and repair minor undead. Thus, many work crews of undead in Thay may have a dread necromancer "overseer" who will pass amongst the skeletons, and where one's arm has been crushed, they use their charnel touch to fix it. Given the number of undead within pre-spell plague Thay, I can see this class as actually being fairly common in Thay (though practically unheard of in other cultures).
From the Complete Adventurer, the idea of the spellthief would be somewhat abhorrent in Thay, except for amongst the enchanter's school. I can definitely see Lauzoril having a secret group of spellthieves whom he uses to infiltrate and assassinate enemy targets of Thay. Similiarly, I can see both the schools of illusion and enchantment sponsoring beguilers.
From the Complete Arcane, while warlocks will exist, their subservience to another power will be frowned upon. It wouldn't be a common thing in Thay. Both the warmage and the wu-jen make perfect fits for Thay, but I'd put the wu-jen as a rarity for those that have studied the elemental magics of the Far East and/or Zakhara. I can definitely see a school of warmages though with ties to the school of evocation and the church of Kossuth.
There are obviously other classes that could fit (for instance, a group of hexblades that serve Beshaba), but this covers how I see the majority of these other classes actually fitting well in one place within the realms without it being a shoe-horned thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 19:27:15
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I picture America more like Nethril then Thay - Thay may be a bit too evil.
The Netherese were opportunists, which translates into modern terminology as capitalists. Thayans make their own opportunities, and are more likely to use excessive force to control groups and seize territory, rather then propaganda and/or gifts (which makes Thay more like the old Soviet union... in many ways).
Capitalist/opportunist societies know when to cut their loses better - I liken the Netherese withdrawal from Arcane space to the US's cancellation of most of our space program. If Thay got SJ tech, they'd probably just keep hammering away it, no matter what adversity they faced (and what loses they accrued).
EDIT: related to topic
So using the above comparison, you are about as likely to find a 'good' red wizard as you were to find a non-corrupt soviet official, which may not have been common, but there were bound to be a few mixed-in with a 'bad bunch'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2012 19:31:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:26:54
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And I'm curious to know who they are, if indeed they do exist. Maybe they hide their 'true nature' under the veil of 'mock cruelty.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 04:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And I'm curious to know who they are, if indeed they do exist. Maybe they hide their 'true nature' under the veil of 'mock cruelty.'
The easiest way for a non-evil Red Wizard to cover his tracks is to "vent his anger" on actually Evil competition!
By taking out evil targets and swearing it is simple competition, they rid the Realms of evil at the same time as cover their own ass. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:32:09
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Good point. However, the Red Wizards rarely confront their competitors head-on. They work through proxies most of the time, and cover their tracks as deftly as they can. If you're a good Red Wizard and kills an evil competitor via paid or loyal servants/assassins, then how would others know you do it?
Maybe just find another 'good' Red Wizard, befriend him, and pretend to have a long, brutal rivalry to keep up the cruel image? Birds of the same feather flock together... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 21:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture America more like Nethril then Thay - Thay may be a bit too evil.
The Netherese were opportunists, which translates into modern terminology as capitalists. Thayans make their own opportunities, and are more likely to use excessive force to control groups and seize territory, rather then propaganda and/or gifts (which makes Thay more like the old Soviet union... in many ways).
Capitalist/opportunist societies know when to cut their loses better - I liken the Netherese withdrawal from Arcane space to the US's cancellation of most of our space program. If Thay got SJ tech, they'd probably just keep hammering away it, no matter what adversity they faced (and what loses they accrued).
EDIT: related to topic
So using the above comparison, you are about as likely to find a 'good' red wizard as you were to find a non-corrupt soviet official, which may not have been common, but there were bound to be a few mixed-in with a 'bad bunch'.
I think a mix of the two makes sense, now that you mention it. They definitely aren't communistic like the Soviets, because they're not interested in the government being responsible for maintaining the life of its citizenry at all. Citizens need to make their own way, or get out of the way. Also, like capitalists they tried to control other countries through products, like agriculture. However, they also made those other countries need them by stealing their weather. However, your reference to them not knowing when to cut their losses... from a societal view that's dead on, except that I do see them learning from the mistakes and changing their methods (individuals will move onto something else, but others will likely pickup the charge). The corruption part is also hugely true, but that's becoming a factor nowadays too, sadly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:31:07
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How about Yaphyll? Other than being fickle-minded, she's never shown a particularly evil deed. Her lack of loyalty to her factions (first with Szass Tam's, then with Nevron's, then back with Tam's again) was necessary for survival and could hardly be deemed evil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 13:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How about Yaphyll? Other than being fickle-minded, she's never shown a particularly evil deed. Her lack of loyalty to her factions (first with Szass Tam's, then with Nevron's, then back with Tam's again) was necessary for survival and could hardly be deemed evil.
She definitely lacked the maliciousness of say Nevron but does alone that make her good ,probably not . I think you could classify her as neutral i suppose. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:30:27
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Likely. It's also possible that as an accomplished diviner, she covered her tracks (evil or good deeds) well, trying to be always one step ahead of her peers---and likely this is the reason she jumped from one faction to another. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 12:40:59
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Very probable, lets face it there is no way you can become zulkir without wading through a river of your enemies blood.
Though I suppose since most red wizards are evil ,killing them is not necessarily an evil act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:41:01
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I once thought Lauzoril himself was good, for having truly cared for and loved his wife and daughter. But his life outside the confines of his home proved otherwise... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:25:56
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| It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you hate. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 01:41:19
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True, in most cases. I must say intention overrides the action, in some ways. A Red Wizard who hates the zulkir of his own school of magic can pretend to be loyal to him (either because he fears him or gains a certain advantage from him) by abasing himself and doing all his bidding, all the while thinking of the many ways to kill him... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you hate.
I love this...and it perfectly fits those of Evil alignment for me.
Raistlin Majere always comes to mind... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:20:02
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Not just those you hate, but those you think insignificant. Most evil people treat those without power or money insignificant, and at times, are the subjects of their "lab experiments." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 11:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not just those you hate, but those you think insignificant. Most evil people treat those without power or money insignificant, and at times, are the subjects of their "lab experiments."
It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you consider insignificant. Hmmm if you repalce hate with insignificant it just doesn't sound as good
Though I otherwise agree with you.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If they are ruthless and capable of detachment and calculation that would horrify the naive, that does not make them evil. It just means they've survived a particularly harsh place and a harsh time.
They always have a choice. That they choose to be cruel to survive in a harsh society is hardly justification enough to say they're not evil.
Leaving Thay is an option, which some Thayans, commoners and Red Wizards alike, have done. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Are there “good” (non-evil) Red Wizards?
