| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 17:43:00
|
It certainly wasn't just the spellplague that killed the Realms in my eyes. It was the totality of 4E changes made to the setting, which include the time jump, the random nation-murdering, the random god killing, the little godly soap opera of Helm-Tyr-Torm, the re-defining of core myths (like the creation myth) and the sudden random insertion of Abeir. The murder of Mystra and the resulting spellplague are only two of the problems in a host of many really poor design ideas.
They took a sledgehammer to many parts of the Realms, blew up others with C-4, and then the dozens of low-level NPCs that gave the Realms its flavor were wiped away in a 100-year death orgasm. Except that it wasn't really 100 years, it was all done in one fell swoop and that era was left blank and blind to DMs. They basically destroyed what made the Realms the Realms, then put a changeling in its place. After everything that was done, to accept this changeling as the real thing is - in my opinion - an insult to the decades of designers and authors who came before, who understood the Realms and made it great.
I will NEVER accept a Realms that includes the 4E changes, which include the spellplague but really involve much more than just that. The egocentric and arrogant designers who pushed for these radical and damaging changes will win if I just give in and buy the next iteration that keeps all that garbage as part of Realms "history" and lore. Take a stand, people, demand its excision and vote with your wallet.
|
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:18:54
|
But without the timejump, there was enough of the Realms we all know (and have grown to love) left for us to get over it. A LOT of people hated the ToT, and choose to ignore it, but it didn't cause an 'edition war'.
Like it or hate it, every piece of lore up until the timejump was still considered canon by everyone - our personal preferences did not matter. 4e FR was a complete disconnect, because it was a double-wipe: whatever the spellplague left unchanged, the century washed away.
Its a 'new setting' - just check the old podcasts; the designers themselves refer to it as such. If the guys working on it consider it a new setting, then it is. A setting is more then just a map - it has a life all its own, giving to it by the people and storylines we have grown to care about.
What makes it FR? A similar map and iconic D&D characters and monsters? Going by the very broad definition, Golarion could be called FR as well. I could easilly import Artemis, Drizzt, Elminster, Storm, Mirt, etc... into that setting, and call it FR - what, precisely, would be the difference between THAT, and what we have now?
You want an explanation? The Spellplague changed the world in more ways then folks realized. There you go - you now have the perfect canon excuse to call ANY RPG world The Realms. Go for it.
The only difference is we would loose Wotc and lose the logo.
I'll miss the logo. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2012 19:21:00 |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:20:53
|
| I agree with you Laeknir that the spell plague was not the sole cause of the rift between pre 4e and 4e. The thing that I find most frustrating about the entire discussion is that the people who like 4e make the argument that the changes between 4e and 3e are relatively minor. It would apparently just take a DM a few minutes to revert the changes and continue with the modern timeline. The settings tone change completely, from being a world with many levels of depth, to an almost points of light setting. I think it is a bit harsh to say that in no circumstance can the 4e setting be continued. However, the idea that every change made in 4e is sarced and must not be undone is what I find annoying. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:33:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
The egocentric and arrogant designers...
Excuse me, but that's taking things too far.
It's clear you don't like the post-Spellplague Realms...you've said as much several times already, in more than one post, in this scroll.
But taking the extra step of including real people in that dislike (i.e. making it personal) isn't OK.
******
You've mentioned a lot of the elements of the Spellplague that I too dislike. However, I don't see them as random at all because they simply weren't.
Within the frame of the Realms the changes may seem random. But from the point of view of setting and game design, those changes were anything but random.
What I like about the post-Spellplague Realms is that we have the opportunity for a second wave of stories. The majority of the Realms hasn't been radically changed, it's just gotten about 100 years older.
Time, not the Spellplague event, put much of the rich tapestry of NPCs in the Realms to rest. It would have done that anyway, Spellplague or no.
But it's important to remember that this tapestry was just a snapshot: one slice of time in a very large loaf, so to speak (thank you Brian Greene for the ananlogy).
To me it's not enough to know, for example, that two dwarves named Jaelroon and Ilmairen lived and worked in Waterdeep. I want to know: what was the rest of their story? Did they stay in Waterdeep forever? Or did they move on?
To me there is a rich opportunity in telling those stories. Being a gamer, I'm not going to simply sit back and assume these NPCs all died boring deaths (though some of them probably did) just because the people at WotC haven't written down their fates.
To me that smacks too much of giving up my sense of wonder for the sake of not having been told by the folks at WotC what to think.
The opportunity to utilize, evolve and grow these NPCs (through the lense of a D&D game) is what was given to us when these many NPCs were published. That's literally why they were written up!
By implementing a 100 year time jump, WotC preserved that opportunity.
If you're looking at just the setting by itself, it may seem these NPCs were left out in the cold.
But if you see it from the point of view of playing the game, those NPCs are right where they're needed: undeveloped beyond blurbs in any number of sourcebooks, ready for DMs to use.
Anyway, proper Realms NPCs aren't static: they live, they grow, they change, they have children and they influence others, they grow old (if they're lucky) and they die.
In this way good Realms NPCs are like good Realmslore.
There's no good reason for me to believe I can't get more awesomeness out of the Realms just because time goes by in the setting. I want to read about and tell the stories of the old NPCs, as well I want to read about and tell the stories of new NPCs. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 25 Mar 2012 19:39:51 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:50:21
|
Oh well, at least this scroll managed two pages before the inexorable flames of edition hatred began to smolder under the words.
I agree (and I think many agree) that more lore and tales about the Realms during the timejump would be welcome. Although I think having a detailed biography/eulogy/address for every single minor NPC and location ever mentioned is needless overkill.
But what is this scroll really about? Spellplague or timejump? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2012 19:56:45 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 20:08:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
You've mentioned a lot of the elements of the Spellplague that I too dislike. However, I don't see them as random at all because they simply weren't.
Within the frame of the Realms the changes may seem random. But from the point of view of setting and game design, those changes were anything but random.
What I like about the post-Spellplague Realms is that we have the opportunity for a second wave of stories. The majority of the Realms hasn't been radically changed, it's just gotten about 100 years older.
Time, not the Spellplague event, put much of the rich tapestry of NPCs in the Realms to rest. It would have done that anyway, Spellplague or no.
But it's important to remember that this tapestry was just a snapshot: one slice of time in a very large loaf, so to speak (thank you Brian Greene for the ananlogy).
To me it's not enough to know, for example, that two dwarves named Jaelroon and Ilmairen lived and worked in Waterdeep. I want to know: what was the rest of their story? Did they stay in Waterdeep forever? Or did they move on?
To me there is a rich opportunity in telling those stories. Being a gamer, I'm not going to simply sit back and assume these NPCs all died boring deaths (though some of them probably did) just because the people at WotC haven't written down their fates.
To me that smacks too much of giving up my sense of wonder for the sake of not having been told by the folks at WotC what to think.
The opportunity to utilize, evolve and grow these NPCs (through the lense of a D&D game) is what was given to us when these many NPCs were published. That's literally why they were written up!
By implementing a 100 year time jump, WotC preserved that opportunity.
If you're looking at just the setting by itself, it may seem these NPCs were left out in the cold.
But if you see it from the point of view of playing the game, those NPCs are right where they're needed: undeveloped beyond blurbs in any number of sourcebooks, ready for DMs to use.
Anyway, proper Realms NPCs aren't static: they live, they grow, they change, they have children and they influence others, they grow old (if they're lucky) and they die.
In this way good Realms NPCs are like good Realmslore.
There's no good reason for me to believe I can't get more awesomeness out of the Realms just because time goes by in the setting. I want to read about and tell the stories of the old NPCs, as well I want to read about and tell the stories of new NPCs.
When I talked about 'randomness', I was talking from the setting point of view because that is the right one to consider if I have to decide whether I'm going to buy books about the Realms or not. And if we consider the development of some late 3e events and of the Spellplague, I can't do anything but think that they were, as I and even You said, random in regards of the storyline, aimed to deprive the setting of some of its flavor and depth, so not palatable to me.
What you said about NPCs is just natural. It's obvious that in my game I'll keep developing them, and keep the ones I like alive. But this is something I can do without buying any book from WotC.
The major plots that were brutally and, IMO, pointlessly either resolved (the 'drowpocalypse' for example, which deprived the drow of any depth as race), or interrupted by the timejump and the 'big' characters and deities removed for no reason, on the other hand, have much deeper consequences on the setting which would be hard for me to deal with in a way I like if I had to stay close to new canon. At the point that I'd not be interested in canon anymore, because I won't buy a book I'll have to scavenge from in order to find a use of it.
That's one of the reasons because of I said that bringing back some of the pre-plague characters, deities and plots wouldn't be 'cheap' and would smooth the situation, at least for me (it would bring in the books infos that I'd actually use almost as they are). But from what I've seen, it looks like that even doing so won't be enough for many others to get the feeling of the Realms back. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2012 20:15:20 |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 21:59:32
|
While it would certainly be great to see a 5E retcon of those elements from 3E to 4E that a lot of us don't like, it is a lot to ask for in a game seeking to grow it's market share (not JUST recapture old segments of it).
So, turning Ed loose to modify the 4E world to something more like 1E, 2E and 3E, offering products that detail people, places, and things across the various common eras of Realmstime (instead of just the 5E timeframe) and lastly (and, to a purist, most importantly) allowing Ed to release an 'alternate timeline' product (which carries the risk that it will sell well enough that you would be compelled to support it by offering even more such products and thus create a 'two canon timelines' Realms) seems like a pretty reasonable set of solutions to the edition wars problem (as least as far as the Realms setting is concerned, I still worry about the actual rules set, since that was a full 50% of my beef with 4E).
I know that might seem like half a loaf to some, but after basically starving for almost 5 years I'd say any progress is good news. The very fact that Hasbro/Wizards has finally acknowledged the problem and is seeking to correct it is also good news, as it means they grasp the basic equation of 'upset customers = loss of profit = decline of market share = bad for us'. I'm hopeful that if people really like one or more of the changes they undertake and vote their satisfaction with their wallets (and their public support in the gaming/internet/convention community) that they will be savvy enough to take the Realms in that direction. That's enough of a genuinely hopeful situation for me. If I win the lottery, I'll see if I can't pry the Realms IP (or perhaps the entire D&D IP) loose from Hasbro and bring back the good old days in an orgy of fanboy inspired author hiring and retcons, but until and unless that happens, I'm satisfied for now. Lol. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 02:56:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
The egocentric and arrogant designers...
Excuse me, but that's taking things too far.
It's clear you don't like the post-Spellplague Realms...you've said as much several times already, in more than one post, in this scroll.
But taking the extra step of including real people in that dislike (i.e. making it personal) isn't OK.
It is absolutely 100% appropriate to blame the designers in this case. People who buy a house, then proceed to totally gut it and put in what they like, they essentially are giving the finger to the prior interior designers.
Designers that totally gut a setting, then thematically warp it into something it was not, are arrogantly giving the finger to prior designers AND consumers at the time.
Who else does one blame, other than the design team? They're responsible for what they destroyed. Problem is, this wasn't entirely their house alone. They "forgot" the reasons why people flocked to the Realms and decided to wipe the slate and go with their personal, specific preferences.
Sure, sure, I've heard the whole argument that "you can't possibly blame one or two designers, because it was a group effort," but the bottom line - really - is that they ARE responsible for what they did. If this current group of designers doesn't undo what the 4E designers did, then they are JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for all the changes that were made.
|
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 02:57:30
|
This has been an interesting scroll to read... and while I fully agree with the OP that there are more Spellplague stories to tell (PLEASE make it make sense... somebody...), I think Markustay has it figured out best... imho, of course:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But without the timejump, there was enough of the Realms we all know (and have grown to love) left for us to get over it. A LOT of people hated the ToT, and choose to ignore it, but it didn't cause an 'edition war'.
Like it or hate it, every piece of lore up until the timejump was still considered canon by everyone - our personal preferences did not matter. 4e FR was a complete disconnect, because it was a double-wipe: whatever the spellplague left unchanged, the century washed away.
Its a 'new setting' - just check the old podcasts; the designers themselves refer to it as such. If the guys working on it consider it a new setting, then it is. A setting is more then just a map - it has a life all its own, giving to it by the people and storylines we have grown to care about.
What makes it FR? A similar map and iconic D&D characters and monsters? Going by the very broad definition, Golarion could be called FR as well. I could easilly import Artemis, Drizzt, Elminster, Storm, Mirt, etc... into that setting, and call it FR - what, precisely, would be the difference between THAT, and what we have now?
You want an explanation? The Spellplague changed the world in more ways then folks realized. There you go - you now have the perfect canon excuse to call ANY RPG world The Realms. Go for it.
The only difference is we would loose Wotc and lose the logo.
I'll miss the logo.
I'll miss the logo too, but I'm still going to suspend my final call until I've seen the new product (both core and Realms). And for the last time, to WotC, just call it 5e already!  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 03:15:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
It is absolutely 100% appropriate to blame the designers in this case. People who buy a house, then proceed to totally gut it and put in what they like, they essentially are giving the finger to the prior interior designers.
Designers that totally gut a setting, then thematically warp it into something it was not, are arrogantly giving the finger to prior designers AND consumers at the time.
Who else does one blame, other than the design team? They're responsible for what they destroyed. Problem is, this wasn't entirely their house alone. They "forgot" the reasons why people flocked to the Realms and decided to wipe the slate and go with their personal, specific preferences.
Sure, sure, I've heard the whole argument that "you can't possibly blame one or two designers, because it was a group effort," but the bottom line - really - is that they ARE responsible for what they did. If this current group of designers doesn't undo what the 4E designers did, then they are JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for all the changes that were made.
But if the designers aren't being allowed to undo the changes that were handed down as an executive order from somebody at Hasbro, then making the designers responsible is as ridiculous as Hasbro allowing them to call themselves "designers" in the first place... personally, I think that if Hasbro is going to insist on doing design work, 5e should officially become a Hasbro product, and should consist of a 10x10 square game board, numbered starting in the upper-left corner, with dungeon "hallways" in some squares that allow speedy travel "down" and snaky linnorm/Oriental dragons in other squares that force the player to return back "up" to an earlier square. The winner, of course, is the first player to make it to the bottom of the dungeon. Oh... wait a minute... that game already exists, albeit upside-down... 
Edit: Oh, and consider this a week-early April Fools announcement; I wasn't going to wait a week and take a chance on forgetting something this good. Really, I'll be horrified if we see anything resembling this for the new edition.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 26 Mar 2012 03:26:47 |
|
|
|
Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:29:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
It is absolutely 100% appropriate to blame the designers in this case. People who buy a house, then proceed to totally gut it and put in what they like, they essentially are giving the finger to the prior interior designers.
Designers that totally gut a setting, then thematically warp it into something it was not, are arrogantly giving the finger to prior designers AND consumers at the time.
Who else does one blame, other than the design team? They're responsible for what they destroyed. Problem is, this wasn't entirely their house alone. They "forgot" the reasons why people flocked to the Realms and decided to wipe the slate and go with their personal, specific preferences.
Sure, sure, I've heard the whole argument that "you can't possibly blame one or two designers, because it was a group effort," but the bottom line - really - is that they ARE responsible for what they did. If this current group of designers doesn't undo what the 4E designers did, then they are JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for all the changes that were made.
But if the designers aren't being allowed to undo the changes that were handed down as an executive order from somebody at Hasbro, (...)
Hasbro didn't order the Realms 4E changes, and Hasbro is not preventing any removal of those changes. Those decisions were (and are) all internal to WotC.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:53:25
|
Let's have a bit more constructive commentary in this thread, please. The original topic was not "Oh, how I hate the Spellplague, let's all complain about it some more!" The topic was "Hey, let's work with it and make it more palatable."
If you don't feel that's feasible, fine. Say so. Just don't make this yet another anti-Spellplague thread, please. I'm as against the Spellplague as anyone else, and even I'm tired of the constant complaining about it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:34:58
|
Thank you Wooly. I really do appreciate your stepping in.
For what it's worth: I sat in at the GenCon where the Spellplague concept was introduced during the Realms seminar. A lot of the people who created the concept, developed it and tried hard to get it right were all there--Ed Greenwood included.
I didn't see them giving each other the finger. Nor those of us in the audience. They were calm, collected and mature.
Ed himself started things off. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think he knew some people weren't going to like what was coming, but he stood by the Realms, told everyone in attendance "the Realms must change" and when he'd finished his talk, turned things over to Rich Baker.
Rich answered a ton of questions and took people seriously. There was no ill intent.
At the end of the seminar, nobody left shocked, worried or pissed off, as far as I could tell. People were happy to see all the game designers in the flesh, some of the Candlekeep scribes who'd met up at GenCon were taking pictures and a lot of people lingered for about as long as they could. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:42:09
|
I wish WotC would further explore the fall of Azuth. I want to know more about what Asmodeus is doing with the power he took from Azuth.
I also wish WotC would start writing novels set in the 100 year time gap. I’d sure like to get my hands on a novel trilogy covering Sembia and Cormyr at war with each other.
|
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 12:10:38
|
| IMO the Spellplague can't be 'fixed'. WotC wanted a 'new' FR and that's what they got. If they have now decided that this wasn't such a good idea; well, I'm afraid that's tough. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
There's more than one way to skin a Spellplague
