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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 16:13:51
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I have, in sooth, sinned grievously in reading overmuch of lurid romance and tales of advenure. The gallant knight, the game squire and the gentle page gallop wildly their destriers, coursers and hacks in what now passes for my mind, pennants flying gaily and proud, the noble warriors accompanied on their warlike ventures by the archer, the billman and the man-at-arms. In short, I have read Scott of old and Martin of new, and in place of Cook's Black Company now stands Doyle's White Company, for the nonce, at any rate.
While I dearly love the pageantry of knights and chivalry, as well as the peculiar mix of pious abnegation, gallant folly and businesslike ruthlessness of the titled warlords in the time of transition from a class of warrior aristocracy to a corps of professional soldiers, I have some trouble locating suitable regions of the Realms for stories of chivalric warfare admixtured with efficient soldiering.
Cormyr has knights and nobles, so titled, but these knights and nobles have a role more analoguous to that of modern aristocracy in our world, whose sons may indeed serve in the military, but whose household troops no longer form any part of the military organisation of their country.
When I read Crusade, I was nonplussed to note the Lords of the cities in Cormyr, officials appointed by the King and serving at his pleasure, pledging 'their' soldiers to his military endeavours and more surprised yet to have the King refer in his interior monologue to these Lords sending their men-at-arms to fight for him in lieu of their own service, referred to by King Azoun IV as 'scutage'.
Hitherto, I had not taken Cormyr to have any form of feudal arrangment at all. Local lords were officials of the Crown and commanded either members of the Purple Dragons, professional soldiers raised, trained, paid by and sworn to the Dragon Throne, or else they might command local militia or the watch.
Meanwhile, Cormyr's hereditary noble class, a very different thing indeed from local lords, were permitted to keep a small retinue of guards and loyal foresters, but were absolutely not allowed to raise a private army of hundreds of men-at-arms.
Assuming that this interpretation is correct, where can I find suitable political organisation for armies composed of the muster of various nobles and knights? Where might ransoming enemy captives of high birth be in vogue?
Damara has a traditional feudal system, more than most places in the Realms*. It is, however, somewhat of a backwater and not a place my PCs are likely to want to visit in the near future.
Impiltur has suitable culture, in many ways, but the military there appears to be entirely professional and in service to the Crown, not individual nobles. I am not expert enough in the lore of Impiltur's law and culture to know if nobles are expected or even allowed to raise household troops numbering in the hundreds to augment the Warswords of Impiltur in the event of a war. Should George Krashos or any sage with lore greater than mine in this regard come across my scroll, let them please ring out with any information they have about the feudal armies of Impiltur.
I know that Tethyr's royal family was brought back to power through the services of nobles and their household troops. It is plausible that the custom still survives there, though Queen Zaranda, in truth, appears less than fond of powerful nobles and the influence they may wield by fielding large armies. I'd expect her to chip away at the custom, if she can, but I can't see many nobles accepting such a loss of authority.
Ravens Bluff is a place where household troops of nobles once provided the whole of the armed forces, but in these new times, nobles are limited to a certain number of retainers and a more-or-less professional military guards the city. Procampur and Calaunt, likewise, have military forces controlled by the central authority, not by all-but-independent nobles bound only by oaths of fealty to their feudal lord.
Tantras, however, is a place where I believe that noble and temple troops turn out to augment the guard in times of need. Though I confess that little enough has been printed on what Tantras would do in a time of all out war.
There are in the Border Kingdoms various petty nobles, but rarely bound to a greater feudal overlord and even more rarely of a power and wealth to collect a company of hundreds of infantry, scores of knights with their squires and pages, as well as three men-at-arms for every knight.
Have I left out any obvious choices?
How do the cities of Chondath array for war, when and if their skirmishing rises above the stylised and relatively bloodless maneuvering of the mercenary companies? Do nobles of Chondath have musters of their sworn swords and bannermen, riding to war under the lord of their city?
In light of Crusade and the White Company, one a tale of Faerunian war and the other of Earth, I must also ask where one would find thousands of men who could string and draw the great warbow?
Crusade has many men of the Dales and some of Cormyr able to wield such a bow, but are there other lands in Faerun where the local culture encourages such constant practise with the bow that many men can draw a 130+ lbs. warbow?
*Probably because it was not originally written to be set in the Realms.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 16:25:58
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| In Drow cities its the same. Each house has its own soldiers and only when the ruling counsile decides to act together against a foe those are put together to an army. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:14:33
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I see hobgoblin culture being formed around the basic ideas of feudalism, except the horse parts. Goblins hate and fear horses. But the basic idea of a hobgoblin lord holding land, granting his chiefs a fief, and lording over slaves but granting them protection in turn very much fits their militaristic lifestyle. It resembles the real worlds Shogunates of Japan very closely IMHO, including the Bushido or warrior code of hobgoblin warriors. They seem to hold the very same honor values as the Samurai of the times.
The Western Heartlands in the realms are another candidate for showing a feudal society, as the land borders on dangerous monster infested regions but seems to lack a central government. Its populace needs the protection of a garrison ranging from a defensible position like a castle to provide the myriad of trade from merchant caravans through and into the Western Heartland some measure of safety. Also, if a measure of a law is to be maintained in this region, the lords of the different fiefs in the Heartlands could have agreed upon a set of rules to enforce through their strength of arms in their area. Marshals of their respective Lords are likely to have their hands full though, so a strategic divides in the area will emerge along the reach of the arm of the local law.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:38:27
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The Heartlands have the building blocks of feudalism, yes. But they lack, so far as I've seen, any feudal hiearchies. There's a lord, maybe a few 'boys'* and his subjects, of various levels of grime.
There aren't great lords, other nobles of consequence, local barons, knights baronets and knights, each of whom may have an army of hundreds or even thousands. The Heartlands suffice to show in action the basic elements of a small keep and a lord defending his lands, but for true feudal armies, one must look elsewhere.
*Cniht originally meant 'boy', as in 'Pay what you owe me, old men, or I'll send the boys round to collect'. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:41:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I see hobgoblin culture being formed around the basic ideas of feudalism, except the horse parts. Goblins hate and fear horses. But the basic idea of a hobgoblin lord holding land, granting his chiefs a fief, and lording over slaves but granting them protection in turn very much fits their militaristic lifestyle. It resembles the real worlds Shogunates of Japan very closely IMHO, including the Bushido or warrior code of hobgoblin warriors. They seem to hold the very same honor values as the Samurai of the times.
Have any hobgoblin lands been detailed?
They seem like an odd race to be obscure, since they are much more likely to rule successful and stable long-term realms than other 'non-civilised' races. Yet I can recall mentions of two hobgoblin kingdoms in the ancient past, both now fallen, and then only lore about them being parts of 'hordes'.
I don't know where to find disciplined armies of hobgoblins.*
*Which is why I've postulated a society of them, having occupied a fairly large section of the Underdark and desiring land in the sun, are going to be invading a significant area of my campaign. But that's not a canon realm of hobgoblins, because in canon, they don't have much worth calling a kingdom. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:58:05
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Ahh that bit in Crusade by Mr Lowder was indeed incorrect when detailing Cormyr. Cormyr is not a feudal society (as we would recognise from medieval Europe), but a monarchy that holds power centrally and grants nobles titles and lands to hold in trust. The Kings Local Lords are also appointed by the Crown and supplied with troops by the Crown to keep the peace, protect the Lord and to keep said Lord in check and make sure that he or she does not get carried away with their position.
Tehthyr would be a good place to start with a more Feudal system, as would Chondeth/Unthar perhaps (if you resolve the ongoing war and plague and what-not that is happening there)
The Bloodstone lands might become Feudal under Gareth Dragonsbane as he exerts his power over the Demonlands in a series of wars to drive out the remnants of Orcus and give land and title to those who swear to serve him?
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 18:04:42
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I'm playing in Unther, actually, and it was indeed to some extent a feudal society even under Gilgeam* and the current war makes it likely that powerful mercenary lords could carve out domains limited only by their ability to hold them.
I'm curious about Chondath, though, because it seems like a place that you might have expected to find feudal armies in the past, but I'm not sure whether or not the mercenary companies exist alongside the possibility of noble musters** or whether they have made it fall out of favour.
*There were nobles with household troops, some quite numerous and shiny, but the nobles were not as politically powerful as the priesthood of Gilgeam. The nobles were essentially allowed to exist on sufference and because Gilgeam was a snob, but the priests always had authority to overrule them if desired.
**Which they did for centuries, in real history. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2012 : 16:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Other than Holorar (sp.?) I can't remember any prominent kingdoms. Markus, help me out here! 
There was Haekrukkha, near Impiltur and the Great Dale, which fell some three millenia before the present day.
I can't recall any name being given for a hobgoblin polity in whose name the warriors facing Imphras (who became King of a new Impiltur) fought. In fact, the 'horde' of that era seemed to behave like orcs with slightly more organisation in the field, but there was no suggestion of strategic or political organisation.
I've thought about inserting into my campaign a hobgoblin kingdom in the Sunrise Mountains in the time of Imaskar, subdued by the arcanists and made a vassal state providing loyal troops to the Empire.
While the kingdom would have fallen at the fall of Imaskar, survivors would have formed several polities. These would have fought bands of former human soldiers of Imaskar for mastery of the steppes, but despite their mastery of steel and warfare, the hobgoblins would have had a disadvantage in open areas as they were not horsemen like many of the tribes. They'd have held caverns and perhaps surface lands that were defensible, but anywhere mobile horsemen could raid, they'd eventually have to abandon as they had no way of forcing a confrontation they could win against nomads who raided foes only where they were weak.
I suppose both Unther and Mulhorand disdained to use hobgoblin mercenaries in the war between these early empires as they established themselves along the Alamber Sea, but no doubt some of the states in the former Imaskari lands were not so troubled with racial scruples. If Bakar, Murghom, Semphar and Solon warred with each other or some other remnant of Imaskar in the first centuries after the fall, no doubt some of them employed mercenaries from the hobgoblins.
Thayd and his rebellious wizards certainly didn't scruple to employ hobgoblins, but I imagine that such individuals were outcasts from their own socities much as the human mages were. Trafficking with fiends is unlikely to have been popular in hobgoblin society at the time, given that some of their worst enemies after the fall of Imaskar would have been the humans who were once their fellow soldiers, but were to become the Nars and Raumathari. And I imagine that these humans were trusted with more magical lore than the inhuman hobgoblins, for all that the hobgoblins might have been more reliable because of their devotion to honour.
The Orcgate War would have been disastrous to the hobgoblins, who at that time might have been one of the more powerful and advanced civilisations in the East. The Orcgate would have opened near their lands and the mountain caverns that the hobgoblins favoured would have appealed to orcs seeking defences against the armies of humans led by god-kings. I imagine that the hobgoblin civilisation fell, in that their height of culture and craftsmanship came to an end and the survivors were scattered bands more than mighty kingdoms.
Their old enemies, the Nars and Raumathari, would have killed some of these bands and perhaps employed others in their armies, depending on prevailing political climate and the level of desperation among the leaders. I imagine that considerable numbers of hobgoblins established themselves in the Glittering Spires and skirmished with the Raumathari as well as the steppe nomads of the Taangan.
At some point, the custom of enslaving young hobgoblins and raising as fanatical slave warriors as part of the chieftain's Yunichaar started among the Taangan. It may have first arisen among the Kalmyk and certainly by the time of the great war chief Hun-kho and his war against Shou Lung, the Kalmyk had legions of Yunichaar slaves who fought with them.
Even after the dissolution of the Kalmyk into the Suren and the North Kalmyk, both groups had Yunichaars of hobgoblins and the generals of these legions had amassed great power and responsibility in their councils. While horses were usually more reluctant to bear hobgoblin riders than human ones, some of the Yunichaar nevertheless managed to serve as cavalry, usually on captured Nars steeds who could be accustomed to nearly anything. Others fought on foot, as deadly archers and disciplined infantry, anchoring the mobile formations of the steppe nomads.
I imagined that some of the political divisions of the Kalmyk and later Suren involved Yunichaar legions and their leaders, with the choice of war-chief or great khan being influenced not only by the human khans, but by the supposedly enslaved hobgoblins who enforced his will and existed outside the tribal society of the steppes. No doubt the hobgoblins chose the wrong side once or twice and a Yunichaar was massacred... or managed to cut their way out and strike out on their own.
Such a Yunichaar with the Suren in the lands of fallen Narfell after the Great Conflagration, would in my campaign have founded a realm in the Underdark, under the Rawlingswood. Hobgoblins from fallen Haekrukkha could have joined them, and they could have had relations of peace and war with the hobgoblins of the Giantspire Mountains throughout the centuries. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 15:10:52
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Aye, I think a good deal of 'modern' hobgoblin survivors have taken upon the mercenary life as the new 'way of the warrior'. Both their warmongering lifestyle and reputation will make them at least a force feared in warfare in the regions they are active in. The price for their employment is likely to be fairly high, though. And their honour system won't stop them from becoming a threat/nuisance during peaceful eras (the more ambitious hobgoblin warlords would not hesitate to hold a minor settlement and its nobility hostage in exchange for resources).
During Europe late medieval era the introduction of the scutage (a tax the pageantry paid to avoid a levy and escape military service) made mercenary business thriving. I see the Realms having a similar situation, with most city-states employing mercenary armies from their income from scutage as standing armies and garrisons as they can prove to be more dedicated and succesful in their tactics and endeavors.
States need to generating enough wealth to field a feudal army next to its infantry armies, and fully armored and armed cavalry costs alot. So mainly very wealthy cities are capable of supporting a stable feudal system for extended periods in Faerun. The viability of the numerous city states in the Realms of producing enough capital for fielding large cavalry armies is quite variable, and should be looked at in great detail afore one can accurately predict the presence of a working feudal system. |
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 15:46:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Aye, I think a good deal of 'modern' hobgoblin survivors have taken upon the mercenary life as the new 'way of the warrior'. Both their warmongering lifestyle and reputation will make them at least a force feared in warfare in the regions they are active in. The price for their employment is likely to be fairly high, though. And their honour system won't stop them from becoming a threat/nuisance during peaceful eras (the more ambitious hobgoblin warlords would not hesitate to hold a minor settlement and its nobility hostage in exchange for resources).
Absolutely. I think that hobgoblins have a far greater chance of more-or-less fitting into human society because they can perform useful services better than most humans and can be relied upon to keep their word and contracts.
And it's not as if human mercenaries don't pose the exact same danger in peacetime, as we have ample evidence for from our own world.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
During Europe late medieval era the introduction of the scutage (a tax the pageantry paid to avoid a levy and escape military service) made mercenary business thriving. I see the Realms having a similar situation, with most city-states employing mercenary armies from their income from scutage as standing armies and garrisons as they can prove to be more dedicated and succesful in their tactics and endeavors.
Somewhat amusingly, I've noted that taxation in Faerun seems to be at a very high level, conceptually. Leaving aside a few exceptional attempts, which had a mixed success rate and a tendency to cause popular uprisings, governmentally imposed income tax is a 19th century concept on Earth.* And while sales taxes were indeed imposed by certain financial geniuses in Roman government, they were exceptionally uncommon until the modern age, as they demand a powerful bureaucracy.
Yet sales and income taxes appear to be fairly common in the Realms. They are low, to be sure, but they do exist in many places. This, no doubt, is the source of much of the revenue that places use to employ the professional guardsmen or soldiers that exist in so many places, which is a phenomenon that much of our Middle Ages simply didn't have.
I do wonder where in the Realms scutage exists, though.
*Any bugger who makes noise about 1799 being in the 18th century ought to note that taxes are paid after the fact, not in advance. Taxes paid on income during 1799 were therefore due in 1800, more or less. Also, it's right on the start of the 19th century, for crying out loud! 
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
States need to generating enough wealth to field a feudal army next to its infantry armies, and fully armored and armed cavalry costs alot. So mainly very wealthy cities are capable of supporting a stable feudal system for extended periods in Faerun. The viability of the numerous city states in the Realms of producing enough capital for fielding large cavalry armies is quite variable, and should be looked at in great detail afore one can accurately predict the presence of a working feudal system.
To greatly simplify things, feudal armies are a response to economies where land is the primary source of wealth and it is impractical to pay soldiers in cash. Thus, land-ownership carries with it military duties to an overlord of the land.
If the government has access to sufficient cash, professional soldiers are a superior alternative for the most part, but in our Middle Ages, the government usually did not have that much money. What it did have was the ability to grant land in return for service.
I'd expect to see heavily mercantile cities relying on professional soldiers and/or mercenaries, but places where acriculture was the primary source of wealth*, feudal armies could make sense. Even in richer places, you could still see them as an adjunct to the regular, professional forces, if the economic conditions that would have made them sensible existed in the past, close enough for nostalgia and conservatism to have retained traditional noble privileges and duties to some extent.
*Compared to the rest of Faerun, incredibly poor places. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 16:50:19
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Heh, in my campaigns granting land is often times a means used to get rid of problematic warlords. Usually they get a piece of problematic frontier land held tentativly. The result is that that particular warlord has its hands full staving of monsters, unruly village folk and other headaches for the ruling establishment in addition to having to bear his armies in the name of the state they pledged themselves to.
I think the last excellent observation you made, the conservatism and traditions among nobility, are a considerable aspect in seeing working feudal systems survive in FR's societies. It makes sense in a sword and sorcery setting that such feudal traditions have been in place for centuries or even longer, giving them the needed politcal weight to remain the same for a long time to come. Established knightly orders, noble families with warlords, and ruling local militia generals must have played this game of land owndership, military duty and general defence for significant stretches of time in Fearuns history for it to have solidified into a commonly occuring system. It only neads to have adapted to the social-economic systems present in the Realms through history, making them slightly different in practise to our understanding of medieval feudal systems in real history.
It comes down to the fact that uncontested lands are not that common in Fearun as it was in for example Medieval Europe. Ensuring that a track of land yields its annual produce can be considerably more problematic for the lords responsable. Thats without counting in disasters like the devastation an Orc horde could have on agricultural lands they pass through...
A wise feudal lord would use the more advanced systems in place in the Realms to his advantage. Alliance to a temple or clergy can provide much need healthcare, strict enforcement of taxes for the revenue needed to equip his army, wizardly magic for vital reconnaisance and military support to ensure a higher security for the people on his lands.
Knightly orders are quite common amongst all the clergy as one can see in the presence of the numerous knightly orders found in Faiths and Pantheons. As Ed has noted in his thread, temples and churches allready function as Fearuns banking establishments in most cities. This makes them prime candidates for the fielding of high profile mercenary cavalries. |
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 13:44:04
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| A fascinating discussion... Color me interested. Especially in saying Cormyr is not feudal. Out of most Realms, the Forest Kingdom has always struck me as the closest to RL feudal countries. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 14:31:46
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I disagree. Cormyr has really only glorified the popular misconceptions of fabulous feudalism, replete with the pompous heraldry and regalia of noble monarchy and a virtuous paladin-like King Arthur Azoun along with his noble champions. Even the evil scheming power-hungry vizier has been painted as a hard but fair vassal with no ambitions deeper than the betterment of his lord and country. Some Knightly titles are sometimes parsimoniously handed out to various heroic PCs and NPCs, very little else seems to be said about feudal life. It seems assumed that lords are all great and heroic, there's always a few evil bastards but they are never mentioned until it's time for a party of worthy heroes to depose them.
I tend to agree with Icelander's view that feudalism was not as glorious and pretty as depicted in the Realms. People were born to their station and those who defied their lot ended up hanging from the gallows far more often than they were Knighted. I'm not saying that all lords were evil tyrants, a minority truly aspired towards great nobility in their deeds and the majority wavered around being decidedly mediocre or anonymous in their unaffiliations, but they did live in a world ruled by swords and silver and a certain degree of paranoid ruthlessness (from threats without and within their domains, above and under their station) always marked the ones who would survive or better their position. Underlings were basically property, they had to obey different laws and suffer different punishments, the reality was that most people were protected only as long as they were useful, the tax collectors and garrisons could often do nearly anything they liked. Many lords and paladins were little better than the bandits they were charged to exterminate. And in times of war or uncertainty (ie: most of the time) they could get away with any crime against the masses they liked. Sure, the titled had to exercise great care when daring to plot against their betters ... but the revolting peasants would often live or die on a whim.
Feudalism was a system which worked, pragmatic and efficient, a chain of command with little communication between the links. The public had few "rights", corruption and abuse were rampant at every level. There are reasons why it disappeared as Europe moved onwards, there are reasons why it reappears from time to time throughout history. Feudalism was not a democracy, and being a too-famous hero who promotes dangerous ideas, especially one who is not an officially sanctioned lord or vassal himself (charged with maintaining the status-quo) is a good way to die in a feudal state. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Mar 2012 14:46:09 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 17:32:20
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More importantly, Cormyr is not feudal because it has a centralised government with no need to act through coalitions of barons or other nobles. There is a national military, national bureaucracy and national navy. The nobles might have some limited legal privileges and social cachet, but they are far from having the kind of power that real feudal noblemen had.
In terms of sociology, Cormyr is more like Regency England than it like any feudal state. There are nobles, who are convinced that their blood gives them a distinct advantage, but in terms of political power, they are subordinate to common-born officials appointed directly by the Crown. The oldest and 'noblest' houses also rarely have anywhere near as much money as upstart merchants.
The conflicts between 'traditionalist' nobles and upstart merchant are an interesting source of adventure hooks, not just in Cormyr, but in Impiltur and the Vast as well.
The purpose of this scroll, though, was to get opinions from scribes on where in the Realms the nobles really did have the powers that they believed that they ought to have. Where do they keep a retinue of knights, bands of men-at-arms and call up levies of peasants?
I know that Damara qualifies and Tethyr, at least before Queen Zaranda.* Small places in the Heartlands may also have a nucleus of feudalism, even if only of the sort that the local lord is the local lord because he and his couple of boys keep the peasants safe from monsters and raiders.
Does anyone have any other ideas about feudally organised armies in Faerun?
*I imagine that she'll be pushing pretty hard for a professional military under the authority of the Crown, given the lesson of the preceding decades. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 18:22:16
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Every city of any size has a respectable standing army, and of course those near water have lots of boats. I recall once computing how many troops were in Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales, and Zhentil Keep by simply adding up all the figures given from their FRA descriptions (plus estimates for non-detailed cities). The numbers used during Azoun's Crusades weren't just inaccurate, they were patently unbelievable.
There would be seasonal variations; these armies usually won't march and fight in the winter, many soldiers might need to be back at their farms in time for harvest.
In a true feudal system there would also be political variations; while a few patriotic or ambitious lords might send extra troops during a levy, the overwhelming majority would reluctantly spare as few troops as possible (willing to claim some local emergency and paying the token penalty fine for sending none) and the overall number of troops would always be less than census expectations.
Cormyr seems almost like a utopian feudalism. There are apparently lords and fiefdoms, yet nobody constantly plots and schemes and bickers over ascension of land and title, there aren't any betrayals and assassinations by all the inheritors or heirs-claimant, there's no overwhelming need to police the land against disgruntled masses (they are instead stationed to police disgruntled foreigners). |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 19:48:01
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If you take a step back and look at wizards and their organisation into cabals, they too could be fitted into a system resembling feudalism. I always assumed the cost of educating a wizard is comparable to that of training a knight (it takes at least 5 years and costs a lot of gold). It's not impossible for a person of common birth to have the neccesary education, but its highly unlikely because of the costs are usually beyond the means of a commoner family. This would mean that over time, wizards are more likely to be produced by families in positions of power. In fearun this includes both the nobility as the bourgeoisie (wealthy merchant castes).
With this in mind, cooperative wizardly orders from countries such as Thay and Halruaa resemble knightly orders encountered in traditional feudal systems in that they are able to provide rulers the promise of protection of the land. In Fearuns past they have also shown to be a political force to be reckoned with if left unchecked. See the rebellion of Thayd against the Imascari overmasters leading up to and during the Orc Gate wars as an example.
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Having a strong hardy folk able to autonomously protect itself can be advantageous for a would-be feudal lord, and teaching the local populace to wield the (composite) longbow can be very lucrative when in the long run archers are orgnised into the military. This understanding is likely widespread amongst the rulers in Faerun, who very rarely fear to train their underlings in useful skills such as bowyery (some English lords were killed by their own longbowmen during the Peasants Revolt in 1381). The Dalesfolk have this obviously covered, and I think regions with similar landscapes are likely to produce folk that could learn to wield the bow with some proficiency. Aglarond, Chondath and the Great Dale come to mind here. Other regions with excellent archers can be found in areas where hunting is a large part of life; people from the Anauroch, the North, the Moonshae Isles, the Uthgart tribes and Silverymoon have enough incentive to train shooting a bow from young age. These areas will have lords that are much more careful when addressing their pageantry though, as an organised revolt could prove disastrous for the nobility.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 21:56:39
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Most clerics require an intensive education comparable to that of most wizards.
The powers of the church also outweighed the powers of the state throughout much of our history, in some countries it still does. How much moreso it must be in the Realms, where the collective power of dozens of churches is backed up by reproducible manifestations of divine favour so unambiguous that even nonbelievers must accept the existence (and power) of the gods. This is more than just the power of the god, the magics of the church and the clerics within, it is also the power of the masses who carry the faith. Nobody prays to King Azoun with any serious expectations of a miracle suddenly changing the world. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 22:31:14
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Indeed. It's highly fractured due to the many gods and clergies active in most of Fearuns states. Most temples own large tracks of land. The heads of churches often times act as a feudal lord would, collecting taxes, and shares of the profits made of the use of the land. Granted, some of the churches have formed long lasting alliances, giving them the means to formulate more unified stances on matters and stand side by side on battles when defence or conquest is called for. Cormyr for example has at least 13 active churches. Of those Tyr, Helm and perhaps Tymora would have the same stance on aiding in a conflict that Cormyr is in.
The military knightly orders of these Churches are powerful in their own right aswell. Their high ranking officers might be the actual leader of a church, which would certainly be the case for the Archbishop equivalent of the church of Tempus, Tyr, Helm and possibly Lathander. Conflicts of interest between the military arm and the monastic clergy could be an interesting hook for a campaign with classic feudal elements. Some Paladin Orders are warmongers in practise, who care little for the consequences their holy war against X has on the region they are in at the time. Excuses such as being harbingers of change for the better, their law can save you, and other drivel is common.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 24 Mar 2012 22:37:28 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 19:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
...I'm curious about Chondath, though, because it seems like a place that you might have expected to find feudal armies in the past, but I'm not sure whether or not the mercenary companies exist alongside the possibility of noble musters or whether they have made it fall out of favour.
I've taken the Chondathian military to be comprised mostly of the armies of the Lords of the cities of Arrabar, Iljak, Samra, Shamph and Hlath, and supplemented heavily with mercenary companies. So it's not really a feudal scheme, as much as a confederation of centralized states led by Arrabar.
Sespech on the other hand... the entry on FRCS says it's a "feudal barony", so one can assume feudal relationships are still important there. Some tidbits seem to contradict that, however. The baron seems to have a large army stationed in Ormpetarr as well as forces in Fort Arran. The communal meetings which guide the politics of villages are all attended by a minister of the court. The military service seems to be an obligation to the kingdom (or barony... they actually use the words interchangeably for Sespech), and the troops seem to show loyalty to the baron above all.
In my campaign, however, I've changed things a bit and made Sespech more of a feudal realm, while keeping all the lore that I could. As such, in my Sespech local nobles have a high degree of independence, but Aldorn Thuragar is trying to change that. You can read more about my ideas on this thread I've posted: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 00:08:46
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I think Ayrik is pretty much dead-on with how Cormyr has been portrayed in the fiction. For something more closely approximating feudalism I've always looked to Tethyr, it remains strong there - at least in part due to the faith of Siamorphe. Most of the worshipers of Siamorphe are located within that region.
For Cormyr... well my portrayals of Cormyr are complicated. It used to be a more feudal society, but has evolved beyond that. It's a highly conservative nation, held together by bonds of tradition, social etiquette, political favors, and debt.
More precisely, it's a caste-based society; with the monarchy acting as a semi-enlightened dictatorship. In theory, all of the power in the nation is within the hands of the monarch. In practice, the monarchs power is restrained through tradition, social etiquette, the need for political favors, and debt.
Below the monarchy is the aristocracy, which are the nobility. Their role in society varies depending on their post. Traditionally, most nobles were given tracts of land to govern and defend (as in feudalism). However, in more modern times being a noble is more of a title. There simply isn't any more land to parcel out.
You can generally tell how old a noble house is by how much land they govern. Older houses have more land than younger houses. Most new nobles live within the cities and are "landless nobles." However, many nobles pledge loyalty and allegiance to older noble houses, and in turn are allowed to govern / oversee a portion of that nobles land.
A noble is in many ways, a mini-monarch. In their lands they are king. They are only subject to the laws issued forth by the crown (and any nobles they've pledged themselves too), but are otherwise free to do as they please when it comes to laws and the like.
At the lowest end of the caste system are the peasants. Unlike in traditional feudalism, the peasants are free - they are not surfs bound to the land. The overwhelming majority are farmers. They pledge their loyalty to a noble and are in turn given a plot of land to work. Their lives are mostly subsistence based; they grow enough food for their families with a slight surplus. Anything left over is given to the noble as a form of taxation, which is the price they pay for being allowed to work the land.
Depending on the agreement made with the noble they are free to walk away. An agreement made does not automatically pass from one generation to the next, and must be renegotiated each time. Of course, in virtually all cases, the nobles hold all the cards in these negotiations.
However, the monarchy has issued various laws that provide some measure of protection to peasants from the abuse of nobles. This is where the "semi-enlightened" aspect of the monarchy comes into play.
Between the nobles and the peasants is another caste made up of Cormyr's defenders: the Purple Dragons and the War Wizards. Technically, the Purple Dragons and the War Wizards are of equal status, but in practice the War Wizards hold more influence and power. There are occasional squabbles between the two groups about who has command or authority over this or that; generally speaking, the War Wizards win out.
The defenders are sworn solely to the crown. In the past nobles were once charged with defending their own lands, but overtime this authority was eroded. Though there are no laws denying a noble the right to raise an army, it would be considered a grave violation of social etiquette. (And would likely illicit reprisal from the monarchy and other nobles in various ways both small and large.)
While nobles are allowed to hire and train personal defenders of their estates, and some defenders of their lands (for example a village militia), anything beyond that would be considered raising an army. In short: "Just enough to keep the peace, ensure personal safety, and not one sword more."
The War Wizards and the Purple Dragons are primarily charged with defending threats to the crown, threats to the status quo, and foreign threats. Problems with monsters, invading armies, and treasonous plots are handled by them.
In theory, the War Wizards and Purple Dragons rank under the nobility, but there are times - especially when the safety of the crown is concerned (or if they have direct orders from the crown) - where they can refuse the wishes of the nobility. Things can get messy and complicated when it comes to issues such as this; though War Wizards and Purple Dragons are expected to display proper social etiquette to the nobility at all times. ("With all due respect, my lord; His Majesty has commanded me to head east. I am afraid I will be unable to investigate this issue. If it pleases you, I shall send word to Constal Deepwood in Marsember. I am certain he will send a number of Blades northward to tend the problem. My deepest apologies my lord for the inconvenience.")
Below the defenders, but above the general population of peasants is another caste: the Freemen. These men and women haven't taken any direct oaths of loyalty to a noble or the crown. Their ranks are primarily filled with the middle class of Cormyr - merchants and guildsfolk. Adventurers are also frequently part of this group.
All such groups require a charter to function legally within Cormyr, and they are required to keep records of their profits and pay taxes based on those profits. However, this isn't managed directly by the crown, but rather the nobility. So you might have a charter to establish a guild in certain towns, but not be allowed to establish it in others. According to the law set forth by the crown, however, you are allowed to peddle your wares anywhere within the kingdom so long as they are legal. (Slaves, for example, are illegal everywhere by order of the crown. However, certain weapons might be legal in some places in Cormyr and not in others.) Most nobles levee a tax on guilds, merchants, and adventurers practicing outside their charter.
The wealthiest nobles make their fortunes through this form of taxation. They invest in guilds, merchants, and adventurers; give them a charter, and expect to make a profit as a result.
It is rare to see a charter that is permanent, and in general sanctioned faiths and churches only receive such charters. Most last for several years and have to be renewed. Occasionally, (this is mostly true for adventurers) their charter may not have a strict time limit on it, but run out upon the completion of a certain mission. In some cases, exceedingly influential and powerful merchants get charters that are permanent so long as they agree to pay a set amount to the noble in tribute.
If something is to happen to a noble - for example, the noble is found guilty of treason - all charters issued by the noble are considered invalid and must be re-issued. Some of the longer range charters require renewal five years after the death of the previous noble. The exception to the rule are those issued for churches and other religious institutions; though generally speaking there is always a way for a noble to resend such charters.
It is rare (but not unheard of) for the crown to issue a charter directly, all charters are issued in the name of the crown, but through the nobility. There are exceptions to the rule; of course. The Church of Chauntea has a permanent charter issued by the crown, as an example.
The Monarchy primarily funds itself through taxes levied on the nobility. Most of the funds are used in training, equipping, and maintaining the Purple Dragons and War Wizards. As a general rule the crown takes one tenth of what a noble makes, though certain nobles pay more, and others pay less. It is one of the ways the Crown shows its favor / disfavor. Each noble has an appointed individual by the crown to oversee their books and financial dealings to ensure proper taxation.
Outside of these methods of taxation the crown and the nobility put into place various tolls and minor taxes. For example, a bridge has been recently constructed on a popular road. A number of Purple Dragons are set to "protect the bridge" (read: the toll collector). As people approach the bridge they're required to pay something like: three thumbs (coppers) per person, five falcons (silvers) per horse, and one lion (gold) per wagon.
Such tolls are generally temporary, designed to pay for the construction of roads and bridges. Others are permanent, such as the tolls at city gates (to help pay for the cities defense), and some tolls on popular trade routes are also permanent.
If folk are unable to pay in coin, an equivalent number of barter-items are accepted. There are also promissory notes issued. In Cormyr, most such notes are issued by the nobility. Most people don't go lugging around tons of gold, silver, and copper coins. Not only is it not safe, it is impractical. As a result the primary method of exchange in Cormyr (and this is true for most of my Realms) are various promissory notes.
Nobles are required by law to recognize all such notes issued by other members of the nobility. Nobles are required by law to pay their debts in full. Nobles can lose land, resources, and fall into debt to other noble houses. This is one of the ways, as I stated earlier, that Cormyr is kept together and whole.
This gives a general overview of how -my- Cormyr works. It's not completely canon, but I used canon as a baseline for trying to imagine how it works in practice. It makes things a lot more gritty than a romanticized Camelot.
On the surface Cormyr appears to be moving toward some sort of enlightenment, the crown generally is constantly looking for ways to grant peasants more rights and freedoms. This generally ensures that the crown is beloved by the people, but there is a darker unseen motivation as well. The nobility is really what keeps the powers of the crown in check. The crown controls virtually all the military might of Cormyr. As the power of the nobility weakens, the power of the crown strengthens.
There is always a tenuous political balance in Cormyr. Should the power of the nobility be sufficiently eroded, my Cormyr would quickly evolve into a military dictatorship. This is actually favored by a significant number of War Wizards and some Purple Dragons. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 00:27:51
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My personal views on feudalism (as of this moment!  ) are simple:
With so much magic in the world, it is nearly impossible to have a feudal state. One cleric walking around creating food and water for peasants or nobles could seriously throw off the constraints of feudal society.
Nobles had to carefully track their food stores...as they were quite literally their currency. Few nobles had coin to be throwing around for their soldiers, and many soldiers weren't even paid with coin most of the time! If a noble (in a truly feudal society) suddenly had access to instant food for his soldiers, they would increase rapidly and he would be far more powerful than a neighbor with similar lands.
So, I sort of like how in the Forgotten Realms the scene plays out more in high fantasy than in feudalism. In my own gaming world, I have removed the ability to simply create food by a spellcaster for this very reason...and if a spell COULD create food, no sane man would eat it as it was most likely of fiendish or faerie make! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 05:11:24
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Well, there's undoubtely many things magic could do to change the societal structure, but a quick calculation with the standard D&D 3rd edition demographic model shows Create Food and Water does not seem to break the economy too badly. Of course, the demographics from DMG are far from perfect, but using Sespech as a basis, here's what I found:
First, Create Food and Water is a third level spell, which feeds three people per level for a day. Sespech is a country of 952560 people (which I assume to be the number of free adults), it has two Metropolises (Ormpetarr and Mimph) and one Large City (Elbulder). I've postulated that it has also 3 Small Cities, 15 Large Towns and 50 Small Towns that aren't mentioned, amounting to an urban population of around 220000 people (which is HUGE, but given a stated population of around 95000 just on the three major cities it seems like a fair extrapolation) After rolling some dice, that gave me the following number of clerics, by level:
2 17th level
1 16th level
4 15th level
2 13th level
1 12nd level
2 11th level
3 10th level
6 9th level
14 8th level
9 7th level
11 6th level
34 5th level
That means about 1 in 10000 people is a cleric of at least 5th level. I didn't roll for lower level clerics since they can't cast Create Food and Water. Looking at the spells per day table and assuming fairly good WIS scores this amounts to a total of 17148 people, or 1,8% of the adult population of Sespech, who could be fed daily using the spell.
Ignoring the feeding of horses and beasts of burden, those results mean it could be feasible to support very large armies using the spell, but one would have to suppose that the entire clerical elite is laboriously supporting the military in that manner. Even then, I suspect that the surplus generated by a good harvest would overwhelm the effects of divinely-created foodstuffs. So I conclude that the Create Food and Water spell would be a relatively inefficient way of supplying an army compared to the traditional method, unless you happen to be on the good side of a large contingent of priests who will work for you for free, or maybe as a contingency in case of bad farm years. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 05:28:37
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I'm sorry...your calculations are awesome...but you are assuming that these clerics are scattered evenly through the population.
Just as an example, lets take Eveningstar in Cormyr where there is a Temple which contains the following in a town of only 400 or so:
11th level Priest
28 other Priests
- 9th level priest
- 8th level priest
These three most senior priests alone would place a great benefit in the hands of Tessaril Winter!
I understand your reasoning, I just don't agree with your broad stroke. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 05:44:33
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| Mapolq, There is also in magical arsenal spells like Heroes feast, create water, purify food and water. Of course if you add stone to flesh the amount of food made by magic is higher. This is not to say magic can feed an army by itself, however magic clearly can make logistics of food supply easier. Throw in a few teleports and magic does much to keep army supplied. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 07:07:33
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quote:
Mapolq, There is also in magical arsenal spells like Heroes feast, create water, purify food and water. Of course if you add stone to flesh the amount of food made by magic is higher. This is not to say magic can feed an army by itself, however magic clearly can make logistics of food supply easier. Throw in a few teleports and magic does much to keep army supplied.
Heroes' Feast is a sixth level spell and not superior to Create Food and Water in matters of simply feeding people. As for Create Water and Purify Food and Water, they would probably see frequent use, but they don't change drastically how many men can be supplied, as most troops will be ale to find their own water... not necessarily water that is safe to drink though, so I suppose it would have an effect on the health and morale of the soldiers.
I didn't consider Stone to Flesh, though it's also a sixth level spell and it doesn't really say how edible the stuff it makes is, though it definitely makes a lot of it. You'd have the added difficulty of transporting huge blocks of stone with your army, though I suppose it could be managed. As for Teleport, it doesn't say how much weight one can take with him, so I'd have to suppose as much as one could carry. I might try to make a similar calculation tomorrow to find out how much it'd help supply an army. In any case, portals and teleportation circles would be very useful (and expensive). Though they can't accomodate troop movements as well as Teleport, a magically powerful force could use them to great advantage. It doesn't address the problem of creating the food to begin with, of course.
quote:
Just as an example, lets take Eveningstar in Cormyr where there is a Temple which contains the following in a town of only 400 or so:
11th level Priest
28 other Priests
- 9th level priest
- 8th level priest
These three most senior priests alone would place a great benefit in the hands of Tessaril Winter!
Indeed. If the House of the Morning commits itself to supporting Tessaril Winter, she'll be in the special situation I mentioned (being on the good side of a good number of priests). But most large temples are located in large cities, where they won't make such a tremendous difference. I suppose there's many exceptions where little villages become exceptionally powerful (try to take over Shadowdale, for example...) but to say a feudal state is practically impossible seems like an exaggeration to me.
quote:
I understand your reasoning, I just don't agree with your broad stroke.
I guess we're on the same position. To re-sum my opinions, I think feudal states in the Realms are unlikely (not only because of magic), but possible. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 16 Apr 2012 20:22:10 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 20:33:36
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Any analysis of the number of people who can use magic has to be made with it in mind that only sorcery is inborn and even with a 'spark' for magic, it is exceedingly unlikely that two people of the same intelligence and talent would develop their skills equally fast if one of them tried to do magic in his off-hours from subsidence farming and the other had the leisure to dedicate his full time to the study, along with all the tutors and learning materials he desired.
To put it bluntly, those who already have wealth will be in a much better position to study magic if they should have a talent for it and even if they do not, they can co-opt and employ poor people who otherwise might not have amounted to any great magical shakes.
PC-types who exist outside of society and have world-shaking abilities without being bound to some established authority will be rare. Just because a lot of stories are about them shouldn't let us conclude that they're representative.
The availability of magic doesn't preclude any form of government in particular, not when wealthy elites can usually count on having the most learned mages and the priests who know on which side their bread is buttered on their side.
That being said, though, we won't find many Earth European-like feudal states on Toril. For one thing, no monolithic church and the various temples all have goals of their own, to say nothing of any wordly designs by less than pious priests. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 12:37:42
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| Icelander, I only now saw this scroll. I am trying to write this type of novel for the Realms. We'll see how it goes. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 14:48:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Mapolq, There is also in magical arsenal spells like Heroes feast, create water, purify food and water. Of course if you add stone to flesh the amount of food made by magic is higher. This is not to say magic can feed an army by itself, however magic clearly can make logistics of food supply easier. Throw in a few teleports and magic does much to keep army supplied.
Well, I've been running the invasion of Unther, where the armies of the House of Ramathant and House of Helcaliant are probably some of the most cleric-heavy forces in the Realms.
Even so, there aren't enough priests to feed everyone using Create Food and Water or Heroes' Feasts. Purify Food and Water helps, especially as water is often a cause of disease, but it only helps to reduce complications that most modern gamers wouldn't think of in any case (cholera, dysentery, etc.).
The best supply situation I've seen was 91 priests (1st-4th level people rank as acolytes) capable of supporting 4,392 people or 1,464 horses if they devoted all of their daily 3rd level spellcasting capability to the task*. This was in an army of 16,000 with 1,800 horses, meaning that only a quarter of the men or, alternatively, most of the horses, could take advantage of magical supplies. The army would still move at the speed of ox-carts, because most of it would still require the food that the ox-carts carried.
And this is an elite army of religious fanatics, with a proportion of priests far above most armies. In fact, this is better than the other field armies of Mulhorand, where the proportion of troops that could be fed by magic is less than a quarter.
The vast majority of priests in Faerun have other concerns than acting as food batteries for wordly rulers, marching with their armies and risking death in order to increase their territories. Even priests of warlike deities are more likely to reserve their spellcasting for occasions likely to earn them glory and be remembered among observers.
Only the most rational and clear-sighted of people truly realise that logistics are important to warfare and the common soldiers are more likely to blame the commissary for every crumb that is too late or not fresh enough than they are to praise them for being able to eat at all. Acting behind the scenes to reduce the number of ox-carts needed hardly seems like a way to gain new worshippers, not compared to the dramatic roles of battlefield command, emergency healing or shaping the battlefield with titanic magic of weather control or earth-shaking**.
*Usually also all of their highest level spells, since 7th+ level priests are rare.
**Call Lighting and Entrench spells are of similar level as Create Food and Water, but considerably more dramatic to the sensibilities of most people.
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Feudal armies in Faerun?
