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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 21:47:51
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New article by Mike Mearls (3/12/2012)
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Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:43:44
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-In 3e, Turning Undead seemed especially convoluted to me. I've played my fair share of Clerics- they might be my favorite class- but I still get confused when it comes to Turning Undead. Way too many charts to have to refer to, stats to refer to, and rolls to make. I liked when mechanics came out that converted Turn Undead into things like Turn Elemental, and other specific creatures. I like even more what Pathfinder did with Turn Undead.
-I think I like better the idea of controlling Undead as a ritual, as opposed to just the opposite of Turning Undead. Turning Undead shouldn't be a ritual though, I don't think. Brandishing a holy symbol and channeling divine energy is the basis of all Cleric spells- I don't see why Turning Undead would be any different. As a spell, I think that makes things a bit more interesting than having X attempts per day. As a spell, Turn Undead would allow for stronger-and-stronger versions of it at higher level (Turn Lesser Undead, Turn Major Undead, etc.). You could also then have feats/spells/abilities that augment that- a 'Vampire Hunter' PrC/PP might have a better ability to Turn Vampires than other Undead; a 'Ghost Hunter' PrC/PP might have a better ability to Turn Ghosts than other Undead. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 17:44:49
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Divine Power Points.
They went this route with many of the options (for other classes as well as divine), and it makes sense. They just wanted to stick to the core mechanic as close as possible, which lead to all the convolutedness. Just remove that archaic mechanic and implement a point system from the get-go.
Give them points (for class powers, not spells), and let them decide how to spend them. I always thought it was kinda silly, turning undead, when I hardly used undead in any of my games. The DM should not be able to nerf a players abilities by hand-tailoring the challenges (to an extent... at higher levels sometimes this is the ONLY recourse).
I like the power-swapping options, and I think (IIRC) Pathfinder went that route. Divine Casters should have a certain amount of 'inner light' that they can channel into different things - it just makes sense.
Give undead levels (not PC levels - challenge levels), and then you have to spend X amount of point to turn that level of undead. No charts - pure simplicity. Only evil priests & necromancers should be able to control undead.
Taking Feats (and I think ALL PrCs should just be relegated into Feats) could allow casters to use less energy per level of feat. For instance, suppose a Divine PC has Lesser Turning (just call it Turning 1 - I hate 3e's feat-naming conventions!) - it would allow them to -1 from the point cost of turning. That could mean they could turn common skeletons for free!
Likewise, a Vampire-Hunter Feat could allow you to turn them as a lower level undead (this would minus points off the creatures level, because greater undead would have varying degrees of power). This would also allow the feat to stack with any normal undead-turning abilities the PC might have.
On the other hand, would a vampire-hunter even want to turn undead? Maybe that Feat should alter the existing (Turning) one, and allow them to immobilize vampires using their turning ability (so the adds would remain constant, but the effects would change).
When it comes down to it, its all just a numbers game.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2012 17:47:19 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 10:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Give undead levels (not PC levels - challenge levels), and then you have to spend X amount of point to turn that level of undead. No charts - pure simplicity.
When it comes down to it, its all just a numbers game.
So how would a PC know how many points to spend to turn the undead? unless of course they have access to the monster manual in which case I guess the players might as well know every detail about every monster so they can beat them easily and move onto the next encounter. If so then it sounds like a parody of D&D to me, why bother to play at all if there is no mystery, a lack of knowledge and no sense of wonder. If they go down this hideous route then it becomes more like a computer game were you can buy the walk through book and do the quests easily? hey maybe they should add a save option in the game as well, to make sure that if a PC dies or fails a roll, or contracts a disease etc the game can go back to the save point where everything is safe and no one is hurt? Am sure that would make lots of sense and make folks happy?
D&D is not just about numbers.
Oh and to elaborate on your post, why does only Turn Undead have power points to make sure you make the roll, surely any roll should have power points as well? lets give fighters them, so they are guaranteed to hit the monster/confirm the critical, and wizards as well to make sure their spells get past magic resistance and please don't forget the thief as well when he/she is bribing the guards to let the PC's into Manshoon's spell chamber so they can plunder his magic. Lets make the game really simple and make sure every one has lots of points to spend and that every one 'wins' every time and we all feel great about how brilliant our character is.....
Surprisingly Mark I think the idea of power points is an utterly ridiculous idea, of course we all play for different reasons and I am sure that this would work for some players, but once you give this ability to one character class you need to give it to the rest for their abilities as well.
I am at a loss to understand why turn undead needs fixing? it is no different to a save or a to hit roll or a damage roll.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 15:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
So how would a PC know how many points to spend to turn the undead?
-They wouldn't. When you see a box, do you know how hard it is going to be before you lift it? You can take a guess, but you don't know how much effort you're going to have to put in before you actually go over and lift it. When you order food, do you know exactly how much you are going to need to fill you up? You can take a guess, but you don't know exactly how much you're going to need, and can wind up still being hungry after you eat, or overstuffing yourself and having leftovers.
-I actually warmed up to your idea, Mark. Elaborating, depending on the strength of the Undead creature and how many 'points' the person puts into turning them, different effects can occur. Use the right amount, or more, and the creature is outright destroyed. Use, say, 75% of what you need to destroy it, and the creature is paralyzed and cannot move for however long. Use 50% of what is needed to destroy it, and it takes damage. Use 25%, and deal less damage. And so on.
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Oh and to elaborate on your post, why does only Turn Undead have power points to make sure you make the roll, surely any roll should have power points as well? lets give fighters them, so they are guaranteed to hit the monster/confirm the critical, and wizards as well to make sure their spells get past magic resistance and please don't forget the thief as well when he/she is bribing the guards to let the PC's into Manshoon's spell chamber so they can plunder his magic. Lets make the game really simple and make sure every one has lots of points to spend and that every one 'wins' every time and we all feel great about how brilliant our character is.....
-Things like this were implemented into 4e and indeed improved the game (though, not to a large enough degree), making Fighters, Rogues, and other classes more compelling classes to play at all levels, especially higher ones.
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Surprisingly Mark I think the idea of power points is an utterly ridiculous idea, of course we all play for different reasons and I am sure that this would work for some players, but once you give this ability to one character class you need to give it to the rest for their abilities as well.
-What? Since the early days of D&D, Wizards were given the ability to cast magical spells unique to their character class. Clerics were given the ability to cast magical spells unique to their character class. Rogues were given the ability to perform special actions unique to their character class. Bard were given the ability to perform special actions unique to their character class. At one point in the history of D&D did all of these (and all of the other) classes that have ever been printed in rulebooks 1e to 4e lose their unique mechanic class-specific abilities? Looking only at 3e, Wizards cast spells in a certain way, and yet, Psions did things differently. Swordsages had modes of attacks that differed from Duskblades. And so on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4458 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
So how would a PC know how many points to spend to turn the undead?
-They wouldn't. When you see a box, do you know how hard it is going to be before you lift it? You can take a guess, but you don't know how much effort you're going to have to put in before you actually go over and lift it. When you order food, do you know exactly how much you are going to need to fill you up? You can take a guess, but you don't know exactly how much you're going to need, and can wind up still being hungry after you eat, or overstuffing yourself and having leftovers.
-I actually warmed up to your idea, Mark. Elaborating, depending on the strength of the Undead creature and how many 'points' the person puts into turning them, different effects can occur. Use the right amount, or more, and the creature is outright destroyed. Use, say, 75% of what you need to destroy it, and the creature is paralyzed and cannot move for however long. Use 50% of what is needed to destroy it, and it takes damage. Use 25%, and deal less damage. And so on.
If it had a scaling ability, then I could see some uses with Turning Undead. I like the idea of spending X amount to do X amount, but not fully knowing what's required to fully destory a creature. Perhaps a Knowledge (Religion) check could narrow the range down? But the problme I see with this is PC's ability to meta-game because players do eventually figure out the numbers behind the screen and you can either change those number consistantly (but that, to me equals cheating) or come up with something different.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Oh and to elaborate on your post, why does only Turn Undead have power points to make sure you make the roll, surely any roll should have power points as well? lets give fighters them, so they are guaranteed to hit the monster/confirm the critical, and wizards as well to make sure their spells get past magic resistance and please don't forget the thief as well when he/she is bribing the guards to let the PC's into Manshoon's spell chamber so they can plunder his magic. Lets make the game really simple and make sure every one has lots of points to spend and that every one 'wins' every time and we all feel great about how brilliant our character is.....
-Things like this were implemented into 4e and indeed improved the game (though, not to a large enough degree), making Fighters, Rogues, and other classes more compelling classes to play at all levels, especially higher ones.
Yep. I'm actually love the idea of haing a pool of points to draw from to unleash specific and potentally devestating power. For one, it creates a unique flavor for each class. A Cleric's pool can amp his Turning, Spells, Healing. A Wizard/Sorcerer's can amp up overcoming Resistance, Spells, and making their spells harder to resist. A fighter could spend point turning non-Natural 20 rolls into Critial chances, knocking opponents prone, disarming opponents, dazing them, etc. Rogues can gain better benefits from their skills such as auto-success on a Stealth or Use Magic Device check, adding effects to their Sneak Attack, performing stunts of Arcobatics. That actually sounds like a simple system with a TON of applications and modificatons.
Why is that a bad thing again??
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Surprisingly Mark I think the idea of power points is an utterly ridiculous idea, of course we all play for different reasons and I am sure that this would work for some players, but once you give this ability to one character class you need to give it to the rest for their abilities as well.
-What? Since the early days of D&D, Wizards were given the ability to cast magical spells unique to their character class. Clerics were given the ability to cast magical spells unique to their character class. Rogues were given the ability to perform special actions unique to their character class. Bard were given the ability to perform special actions unique to their character class. At one point in the history of D&D did all of these (and all of the other) classes that have ever been printed in rulebooks 1e to 4e lose their unique mechanic class-specific abilities? Looking only at 3e, Wizards cast spells in a certain way, and yet, Psions did things differently. Swordsages had modes of attacks that differed from Duskblades. And so on.
Each class in D&D has (does) play differently, yes even in 4th Edition. Sure, you can make certain classes play similar to other classes in D&D such as a Cleric taking all buff/combat spells to be 'like' a fighter, a rogue grabbing a TON of magical wands, staffs, and rods to cast spells 'like' a wizard, or a wizard obtaning ways to cast curative spells 'like' a Cleric but they're NOT those classes nor should they be able to perform like them all the time or better than them some of the time.
Mod edit: Cast banish blue (cleaned up the quote coding to get rid of the funky blue text) |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Mar 2012 22:03:23 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 22:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If it had a scaling ability, then I could see some uses with Turning Undead. I like the idea of spending X amount to do X amount, but not fully knowing what's required to fully destory a creature. Perhaps a Knowledge (Religion) check could narrow the range down? But the problme I see with this is PC's ability to meta-game because players do eventually figure out the numbers behind the screen and you can either change those number consistantly (but that, to me equals cheating) or come up with something different.
-It's not as if that doesn't already happen, though. If party is fighting an Undead creature that is significantly stronger than the individual members of party (but still beatable), more often than not, the Cleric is not going to bother with his Turn Undead check because he/she knows it's not going to work.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yep. I'm actually love the idea of haing a pool of points to draw from to unleash specific and potentally devestating power. For one, it creates a unique flavor for each class. A Cleric's pool can amp his Turning, Spells, Healing. A Wizard/Sorcerer's can amp up overcoming Resistance, Spells, and making their spells harder to resist. A fighter could spend point turning non-Natural 20 rolls into Critial chances, knocking opponents prone, disarming opponents, dazing them, etc. Rogues can gain better benefits from their skills such as auto-success on a Stealth or Use Magic Device check, adding effects to their Sneak Attack, performing stunts of Arcobatics. That actually sounds like a simple system with a TON of applications and modificatons.
Why is that a bad thing again??
-There's no reason that "pools" shouldn't be a part of most classes- especially non-magical classes, that don't have the innate versatility in their actions that spellcasters do. I never really considered the idea of such pool abilities given to spellcasters (outside of the notion of doing away Vancian magic and replacing it with a Spell Points system), but it is an intriguing idea. I'd be afraid that it would do too much to continue unbalancing spellcasting classes in relation to non-spellcasters, if they had access to such abilities at the spur of the moment. Perhaps those mentioned boosts could happen, but in the form of a feat that costs at the expense of a memorized spell? I do like the idea. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Mar 2012 22:20:04 |
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Legends and Lore: Turning and Churning
