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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:19:50
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Since FR is Ed's creation in the first place, that 'police job' should have been given to him. There'll surely be less rants from the fans. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 04:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since FR is Ed's creation in the first place, that 'police job' should have been given to him. There'll surely be less rants from the fans.
It doesn't have to be Ed, it just needs to be someone who respects the setting and who will be willing and able to call shenanigans on what anyone else does. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 05:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since FR is Ed's creation in the first place, that 'police job' should have been given to him. There'll surely be less rants from the fans.
It doesn't have to be Ed, it just needs to be someone who respects the setting and who will be willing and able to call shenanigans on what anyone else does.
Besides, when other designer-folk have occupied the role of Realms-traffic cop, like Jeff Grubb, they've proved more than capable of keeping things consistent within the Realms canon. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 06:01:07
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| Does Araunt and Thay even know of each other? I suppose Szass Tam would be aware of them, and if he were, would he have already placed agents within the Eminence? Could Araunt on Abeir be sending servants to Lod right now to reinforce them? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 09:36:51
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In The Masked Witches, the patchwork man, a servant of the Eminence, made it plain that he didn't want Thay to know what he and his ilk were up to in Rashemen. It could be an indication that the Eminence fears that Szass Tam would interfere, directly or otherwise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 16:19:11
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The Eminence (I assume) made it their business to know EVERYTHING about Toril upon their arrival. They were probably the Kraken Society's best customers for a decade (also note the convenient position of the headquarters of that group, between the two settings).
Szass Tam also makes it his business to know everything about everyone within Faerūn, so the moment the EoA began to meddle there, he would have known of it. Besides, you don't think they approached him at the beginning for membership? He probably sent their emissaries' heads back to them in a bag (of holding). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 16:20:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 17:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Szass Tam also makes it his business to know everything about everyone within Faerūn, so the moment the EoA began to meddle there, he would have known of it.
I doubt that Szassy's information network is so far-ranging that someone sticking to the background and avoiding any of his areas of interest would be instantly known. As long as they stick to crypts and such outside of Thay, how would Szassy know of them?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides, you don't think they approached him at the beginning for membership? He probably sent their emissaries' heads back to them in a bag (of holding).
I think the Eminence would prolly examine, from afar, Szassy's actions and see if his apparent goals aligned with theirs. I also think that if they didn't, or if the Eminence wasn't sure, they'd stay in the background. Especially with the more powerful undead guys like Szassy, who could very well try to twist/manipulate the Eminence to his own goals. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 18:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Eminence (I assume) made it their business to know EVERYTHING about Toril upon their arrival. They were probably the Kraken Society's best customers for a decade (also note the convenient position of the headquarters of that group, between the two settings).
Szass Tam also makes it his business to know everything about everyone within Faerūn, so the moment the EoA began to meddle there, he would have known of it. Besides, you don't think they approached him at the beginning for membership? He probably sent their emissaries' heads back to them in a bag (of holding).
Szass Tam may have already know about the Eminence of Aurant, but not about their business in Rashemen. The EoA's servants who went to Rashemen are most likely protected against scrying magic by the land, the same protection granted to the Witches. Unless, of course, Szass Tam somehow managed to place spies inside Rashemen, or in the ranks of the EoA itself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 18:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Szass Tam also makes it his business to know everything about everyone within Faerūn, so the moment the EoA began to meddle there, he would have known of it.
I doubt that Szassy's information network is so far-ranging that someone sticking to the background and avoiding any of his areas of interest would be instantly known. As long as they stick to crypts and such outside of Thay, how would Szassy know of them?
Dmitra Flass and Malark Springhill's network of spies (whose reach extend beyond Thay's borders) proved successful against Szass Tam's earlier campaigns to take over Thay. He himself admitted he should not have underestimated the value of capable spies. Upon the death of its two former leaders, he definitely must have assumed authority over said network, and have put them to good use ever since. So...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides, you don't think they approached him at the beginning for membership? He probably sent their emissaries' heads back to them in a bag (of holding).
I think the Eminence would prolly examine, from afar, Szassy's actions and see if his apparent goals aligned with theirs. I also think that if they didn't, or if the Eminence wasn't sure, they'd stay in the background. Especially with the more powerful undead guys like Szassy, who could very well try to twist/manipulate the Eminence to his own goals.
Very likely. Otherwise, as I noted above, the patchwork man, leader of the 'emissaries' of the EoA in Rashemen, would not have endeavored to cover his tracks from the curios eyes of Thay's undead ruler. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 18:20:47
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I didn't say he knew about their business in Rashemen - I just think he would have learned about the organization itself in the past century.
There is no way they would have avoided Larloch's notice (considering their mutual goals), and Szass and Larloch have 'done business' before (but we could just as easily assume he wouldn't inform Szass Tam, for his own mysterious reasons, or he could even set them against each other, for all we know).
I also never said Szass Tam is 'all-knowing', which is why I limited his area-of interest to Faerūn, not all of Toril, which is the case of the EoA (considering where they are based out of, it would be weird if they were only focusing their efforts in one continent). Part of the reason Thayan Enclaves existed at all was to keep tabs on other countries - I doubt Szass Tam would have lost interest in the rest of Faerūn after his failure with the Dread Rings... quite the contrary. Knowledge is power, and he's smart enough to know that.
In fact, I would even say he is only well-informed about 'The Heartlands' - aside from a casual interest in the Old Empires (which no longer exist), he probably has very little interest in the south at all (with Halruaa also being gone now).
How secretive is the EoA? I'm not talking about 'current projects' - it would make sense for them to hide those. I'm just talking about knowledge of the group itself. A hundred years is a long time for such a far-reaching organization to still be unknown (maybe to common folk, but not to the 'movers & shakers').
Regardless, I still standby my original posts in this thread - groups with common interests are actually more likely to fight then those with no interests in common. Especially when talking about evil groups who don't even understand the concept of 'sharing'.
We have no idea how monolithic the organization was back on Abeir. If they were extremely powerful, they may have taken the 'join or die' attitude with folks like tam and larloch... and gotten spanked for it. After recovering, they would then try a more cautious approach (we really can spin 4e lore any way we want, its so ambiguous). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 18:21:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 18:59:49
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I once postulated that Larloch might have been involved in the Dread Rings' collapse. I'm not saying the combined brilliance of the zulkirs, coupled with Aoth and Jhesri's help, was not enough to figure out how to tackle the DRs exactly... But Larloch could possibly have done a little push. Destroy the concept and you destroy the matter---the solution to the zulkirs' plight. That's something no common practitioner of the Art easily thinks of. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 01:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I once postulated that Larloch might have been involved in the Dread Rings' collapse.
Personally, given what we've been told about Larloch's ambitions in the past, I tend to think the whole Dread Rings' collapse was either beneath the notice of Larloch... or something he merely "played with" while occupying himself with more serious concerns.
I'm not devaluing the threat posed by the Dread Rings, but at the same time, I can't see Larloch investing himself so directly in their outcome... unless that outcome either threatened some of his other well-laid plans, or the result was a curious happenstance for him. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 03:21:15
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The threat is serious enough to have reached Larloch's attention. The Dread Rings may not function as they are intended (that is, to remake the world and have Szass Tam become its overgod), but given the massive firepower needed to make them work, the results could be disastrous---e.g. nuking half, if not all, of Faerun; or boring a hole into the Weave itself that Mystra would have needed centuries to repair. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 13:40:07
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I agree with Dennis on this, in that Larloch would really go so far as to kill anyone that would destabilize the work he has done as well as what he has hoarded over the centuries. I mean, even if the Unmaking did not go as planned, it might have in Dennis words "nuked" majority of Faerun, causing further destruction to the Weave.
Mystra is still alive in a sense, from the current El series, so Larloch would go the length and beyond to keep her safe until things are cooling down a little and magic returns to maybe its former self, enough for him to continue working. And if Szass Tam still continues with the Dread Rings, perhaps the lord of the Warlock's Crypt will simply nuke the Zulkir of Necromancy. I mean remaking the universe and placing himself as the only god, Larloch would never consent much less like that idea. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 18:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I agree with Dennis on this, in that Larloch would really go so far as to kill anyone that would destabilize the work he has done as well as what he has hoarded over the centuries. I mean, even if the Unmaking did not go as planned, it might have in Dennis words "nuked" majority of Faerun, causing further destruction to the Weave.
Mystra is still alive in a sense, from the current El series, so Larloch would go the length and beyond to keep her safe until things are cooling down a little and magic returns to maybe its former self, enough for him to continue working. And if Szass Tam still continues with the Dread Rings, perhaps the lord of the Warlock's Crypt will simply nuke the Zulkir of Necromancy. I mean remaking the universe and placing himself as the only god, Larloch would never consent much less like that idea.
I'm not as certain that Larloch would have killed someone who threatened his plans... Why remove a potentially useful tool from play? It's easier to thwart or redirect his opponent's efforts, and then he can still manipulate that opponent into doing something useful a century or two later. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 21:03:56
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I agree with wooly - it is more likely larloch would have used Szass' plans for his own ends, perhaps even redirecting the energy into himself (like what Dr.Doom did to Galactus during the Secret Wars).
However, I really don't see Larloch wanting that job - if szass tam could pull it off, then Larloch should be able to, and he hasn't bothered in all those centuries.
On the other hand, his own goals may be similar, but he chosen to take a different route.
Either way, Larloch behaves like the Harpers - he turns enemies towards each other more often then getting his own hands dirty. He is a master manipulator, not the type to confront things directly with raw power (unless he needs to make a point, in which case he is more then capable). People fear what they don't know more then what they do know, and the smart opponent never tips his hand.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 01:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I agree with Dennis on this, in that Larloch would really go so far as to kill anyone that would destabilize the work he has done as well as what he has hoarded over the centuries. I mean, even if the Unmaking did not go as planned, it might have in Dennis words "nuked" majority of Faerun, causing further destruction to the Weave.
Mystra is still alive in a sense, from the current El series, so Larloch would go the length and beyond to keep her safe until things are cooling down a little and magic returns to maybe its former self, enough for him to continue working. And if Szass Tam still continues with the Dread Rings, perhaps the lord of the Warlock's Crypt will simply nuke the Zulkir of Necromancy. I mean remaking the universe and placing himself as the only god, Larloch would never consent much less like that idea.
I'm not as certain that Larloch would have killed someone who threatened his plans... Why remove a potentially useful tool from play? It's easier to thwart or redirect his opponent's efforts, and then he can still manipulate that opponent into doing something useful a century or two later.
That's largely what I was getting at above.
With Larloch's far ranging plans and schemes... how do we know whether or not Tam and the whole Dread Ring initiative wasn't some small part of his long-reaching oversight for the Realms? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 02:36:57
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Hardly. A threat that serious is difficult to oversee. He didn't have to meddle directly. He might have just ordered one of his lich-servitors to 'whisper' to any of the zulkirs (or Jhesri and Aoth) the way to neutralize the Dread Rings. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 06:47:09
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| Or he would have done the whispering himself. A lich who can chain 3 demiliches to do his bidding is pretty powerful... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 20:49:36
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| Yeah, I see The Eminence as simply seeing Rashemen as a beachhead. Also, I see them as being a land that SHOULD be theirs. After all, its a land that's chock full with ghostly spirits, and they believe that any land that has undead is an extension of their empire. Granted, these ghostly spirits are generally benign and want to serve the people of Rashemen.... but these spirits also don't like the people of Thay and would make good "fodder" for the Eminence. Also, the odd tie that Rashemen has in creating these spirits may be a mystery that the Eminence wishes to study. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 20:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not at all. Richard said he didn't even know his Dread Rings are being used until I and others asked him about it. Someone should be in charge of overseeing continuity in the novel line. I understand they had it before. Why can't they assign one now?
It is my opinion, based on how loose they've played with continuity since the advent of 3E, that continuity isn't as important to WotC now as it once was. I've no concrete proof of this, but I've seen enough to be convinced.
Absolutely, the whole idea that "we want just points of light and we don't want to fill in the details" just screams "we don't know the realms as well as our buyers, and now its showing, so lets change it". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 05:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I see The Eminence as simply seeing Rashemen as a beachhead. Also, I see them as being a land that SHOULD be theirs. After all, its a land that's chock full with ghostly spirits, and they believe that any land that has undead is an extension of their empire.
The spirits in Rashemen aren't exactly undead, so I don't think that's the reason the Eminence of Aurant wants to seize the land. It could be because they want to establish a stronghold in the east, and raise as many powerful dead wizards as they can, which Rashemen, being home to the Nars for a very long time in the past, is fraught with. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 May 2012 05:17:32 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 07:28:08
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| And binding the telthors and whatnot would be beneficial as these could be used for "fodder" for the inevitable battle with Thay? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:54:49
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I think the Eminence of Aurant would not find it worthy of their time and effort to bind the telthors. Those spirits are mere annoyance to them.
What they should do is learn to wrest control of the flow of magic in Rashemen's land. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 16:52:17
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Ah, it appears like the question has been answered in Richard's Prophet of the Dead: Lod does intend to make allies of Thay. He wants to bring it down. But as Jhesri said, "Good luck with that."
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Evil powers rarely work with each other (its one of the major strengths of 'goodly powers'). Even when they do, its only a matter of time before one or the other betrays the alliance.
Oh. You're right about this. What happened to Lod and Sarshethrian is an example. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Feb 2013 17:05:45 |
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Two Gigantic Undead Forces: Allies? (Spoilers)
