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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 01:50:39
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That may indeed be true Cardinal, but perhaps Gruumish is looking at the wider picture of power in the Realms (and also why he is the chief Orc deity). Who do you really think the Orc tribes of Faerun have more to gain from, in their continual wars...the Elves, or the Goblins?.
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Arteris
Learned Scribe
121 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Actually, I'm afraid your mistaken, my dear Arteris. You see, the society of elves is all backwards. Had the not followed the the false one, Corellon Larehtian, all their troubles would not be as they are. Infact Lolth's own ideas make much sense when thought out logically. Weed out the weak, those that can plot and decieve enought to wrest power away from someone deserve their place... since they will only keep it by such means. You it all boils down to the fact that many are liars and don't know it. Infact, the entire elf pantheon is merely a group of fools living a lie they they don't know exists. Goodness? BAH! Mercy? HA! Compassion? NAH! These are the things of myth, my friend. Lolth's clergy is the only ones that realize the hollow faith that their surface kin are aflicted with. It is weakness that bred these things into the surface elves, they must be saved from themselves. Yay, verily it is through submission to the will of Lolth that the Surface elves can yet be....aided...
The Faults are not of Lolth's doing but the slanderous lies and gossip that is flung from the other gods. As I have said I have yet to find fault in Lolth, since only in her meddling of mortal affairs, do I not see harm done. In Avatar form or extension of Will, Lolth may have caused many deaths, but these deaths I see a a worthy sacrifice for the progress that has been made... The way I see it the frivolous Deities (Such as Sune, Sharess, Liiria, Lathander, etc) cause more harm than anything eles.
All Glory to the Dark Mother!
So by following the chaotic natures of Lolth you would rather live under constant struggle striffe and destruction of others so that you can remain number 1? To live the rest of your life as a tyrant and constantly undermining others? "Goodness? BAH! Mercy? HA! Compassion? NAH!" these things could all be possible if evil and corrupt deities like Lolth were not present destroying everything that everyone else works so hard to build. Zaknafien had the right idea about the Drow and their "glorious" spider queen |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:26:08
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Quote:
Getting back to Shaowlord, you see, that is precisely the type of following we need....Which give me an Idea for a PrC. A Class made up of devout males (Like an order of clergy.. perhaps A monk order) that will fight solely for the purpose of Lolth's will, each would carry a ceremonial Dagger, so that when, if and should Lolth Decree it, He would give his life to her Glory! I'll have to do some working but if the shoe don't fit, force it!
Victory to the Spider Queen!
A monk order would work for me. I believe Shar has something like it, the Monks of the Dark Moon, or somesuch. Anyways, Karsus would be much better than that weakling midnight. Foolish Goddess!!!! I SHALL SMITE YOU FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF LOLTH, AND MY PATRON MASK!!!!!!!!! and Bookwyrm, Denier and Azuth are flawed. Deimos is correct in this much. They both work for the *good*, if such a concept is even worth anything. Oghma is better though. He'll give knowledge to anyone, if knowledge is returned. Which basically means that half the dieties are alright in my book, and the other half are useless gits! |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:28:41
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| Arteris, while that would be true, Zaknafein also went along with the ways of Lolth, proving that the spider queen's power overwhelms even the fiercest of wills, Drizzt and Liriel being odd exceptions of course. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:43:43
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Zaknafien I have no faults with... He could keep what ever foolish beliefs he wanted as long as he served the will. He was a smart one. Drizzt on the other hand.... Tsk, Tsk... Such promise and he threw it all away...the misguided fool. Besides.. It would be foolish to live as a tyrant, lording over others... of that way lies destruction... It is far better to serve from the shadows thus you will outlast the false leaders placed in power while you may do as you will... Let's take... for example two clerics of... say Sune... no that wouldn't work.. one of Sune and one of Sharess.... No... Hmmm... AHA! That is my point... It is hard to predict where the dagger that will end up in your back will comefrom with those two, HOWEVER You EXPECT if from Lolth, by expecting it you may prepare and/or make peace with it and accept it. ... And I still retain that Goodness, Mercy and Compassion are Myths that are based upon lies that are as old as legends......
As for Sage... Gruumish is not looking at much (he only has one eye MWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!.... Sorry couldn't help myself) Anyways, They would make much more progress against goblins than Elves... Progess is good as it would mean more power... the more power would put him on equal footing with elves.. thus he wins... And I still say he's a fool.
Hmm And I never passed judgement on Azuth... But Like Shadowlord says He is flawed... Shadowlord, you are becoming an important ally... I think we will get along splendidly... you can predict my thoughts... Anyways.. However, Savras is ok! So let it be written, so let it be Done!
The path to supremacy for a male, lies either in the bedchamber or in the Books of the Mages |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:52:43
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| Deimos, I agree, an alliance could serve us both, and Lolth teaches that betrayal is inevitable. Good training for both campains, and real life! |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:54:49
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| But, I hope for no betrayal between us, that would be unpleasant, to say the least, lol. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:59:26
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Well, as Lolth teaches us we must be wary... but I view you as no threat (for the present) so you need not fear my betrayal... yet....
Trust me.... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 03:01:36
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| Duly noted, my (present) ally, this could be a fruitful (not to mention chaotic) pairing for us both. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 04:10:45
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Hmm... i'm finding this overly amusing... i love how this thread went from the topic of Kezef the chaos hound... to the faults of deities... and how certain people believe that lolth has no faults...
well honestly... how i think on this is that all things, deities, living, dead, nonliving/nonsensient things have faults... if there were no faults, there would be no reason for there to be so many diversified things...
As in... if deities had no faults... why would there be so many deities... like why does each deity have their opposite (shar/selune...tymore/beshaba)... with no faults... deities and everything else would be perfect, which would lead to having no need for all the different deities of every single concept imaginable...
Basically... if there were no faults, everything would be perfect.. so there would be no need for more than Ao... everything survives on imperfections/faults... the realms, in a sense, were created based on a 'fault'... Ao created Selune/Shar.. the whole reason those two 'split' was because Chauntea wanted light/warmth for living things to thrive and the two-faced entity (as by most stories i found... they were one being, but two faces) could not agree... that is a fault...
ah well... me and my babbling... i'm starting to confuse myself... i shouldn't try to think after working all day without food... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 05:26:48
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| Actually your true on all counts.. and I see not how one can be confused... It made perfect sense to me... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 09:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Many would view the Knowledge is power, Power is Control as rather Evil as most seem to see such control as evil... See my dear Bookwyrm, even you saturated in the lieand are unawares!
See, now that just goes to show how blinded you are to other modes of thinking. Control isn't evil. Like knowledge, it's in how you use it that it gets judged. It happens in this case that I was refering to personal control: control over your own life, rather than wandering through to word blind and ignorant. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 13:53:29
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| Ha, Zacas made an interesting point, I too am finding amusement in the "topic-changing." Maybe we should make a new folder. "The Faults of Dieties; A Philisophical Debate." lol |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 18:09:39
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Ah, But you see control is the illusion. How can one really define control? by how storng they are? How wise? The world is not made up of control my friend, and control does not exist. It is simply an on orderly fashion of a maelstrom of Chaos. No used trying to control it, just sit back, relax and let the cards fall where they may.  ... No control is acutally... while not good, useful, but as I have said control is an illusion and most people dislike it when they arer controlled, thus the reason why I termed it 'evil'.... Hmmm It seems I skipped several words in that post... My Bad |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Arteris
Learned Scribe
121 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 18:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacas
Hmm... i'm finding this overly amusing... i love how this thread went from the topic of Kezef the chaos hound... to the faults of deities... and how certain people believe that lolth has no faults...
well honestly... how i think on this is that all things, deities, living, dead, nonliving/nonsensient things have faults... if there were no faults, there would be no reason for there to be so many diversified things...
As in... if deities had no faults... why would there be so many deities... like why does each deity have their opposite (shar/selune...tymore/beshaba)... with no faults... deities and everything else would be perfect, which would lead to having no need for all the different deities of every single concept imaginable...
Basically... if there were no faults, everything would be perfect.. so there would be no need for more than Ao... everything survives on imperfections/faults... the realms, in a sense, were created based on a 'fault'... Ao created Selune/Shar.. the whole reason those two 'split' was because Chauntea wanted light/warmth for living things to thrive and the two-faced entity (as by most stories i found... they were one being, but two faces) could not agree... that is a fault...
ah well... me and my babbling... i'm starting to confuse myself... i shouldn't try to think after working all day without food...
Well seeing as how the topic of Kezef the Chaos Hound I orignally posted was well answerd by several sources I have no real problem with it switching off to the faults of dieties, why create another thread when you could just multi task the two. Secondly Diemos, how can Drizzt have faults if he decided not to be a murdering constant undermining slave to Lolth, Lolth shows no compassion to her followers and is evil and rotten to the core. The only reason she leads her race with chaos is to ammuse her own simple whims, not for the benifit of drow societey. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 18:57:39
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| Too true. I just find it amusing to follow a chaotic diety. There is a difference between chaotic, and frivilous, mind you. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 02:49:09
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As one wise man once said: " That which does not kill me makes me stronger."
I believe that this holds true, perhaps even moreso with the drow. Which race is so feared that they warrent an attack on sight or a hasty retreat? Which race is infamous for having magic wash over them like water with no effect (more or less), It be the Drow. And What Goddess have the drow mainly followed since the tales circulated? Lolth/Lloth. Compassionate or not Lolth has sustained the Drow. Made them a force to be reckoned with. Besides, Drow society is a tool for Lolth to eventually get back at the Surface elves and Corellon.
Which once again brings me back to a former point, The Gods are children.... Using mortals in their petty fights, and meddling far too much in the natural order and balance of toril. In the end the only path is that of perhaps a Diabolist or Demonologist.... Or their counter parts in the celestial legions. Lolth plays a part in the Great Conflict between the Celectial Hosts and the Fiendish Hordes, being Queen of the DEMONweb pits as she is... There is only one other of the other side that if find favor in, and that is the goddess Eldath, Goddess of peace, quiet, stillness, Pools and springs. Yes I am aware that she is Neutral GOOD but Only between those two, And the real neutral deities do I find fewer gripes with... The rest of both Good and Evil alignments? They can go jump in the Styx! ... Well there it is then, Give me Chaos or give me Peace, Quiet and Stillness... As you can see, I am not totally without redemption... but odds are slim  ... Well there it is then... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 21:07:27
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| Lol, no offense, my ally, but redemption is something I can never picture happening to us, and I'd take chaos over anything else anyday. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2004 : 20:10:50
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Hardly. There's far too much order in the universe for everything to be complete chaos. Perhaps, leaving aside creationist theories, true chaos once existed. (Speaking of creationism, it might be interesting to many scribes here that the original Hebrew texts state that the universe was created from water; water was the same as chaos in the original language.) However, it cannot be so now; if chaos were as all-powerful as you suggest, then nothing could ever repeat consistantly.
Of course, I'm far from one believing in a 'clockwork universe' as Newton put it. Though actually he wasn't much of an everything-is-predetermined-by-atomic-motion as some people accused him of being (note that the true -- yet so false -- split between 'science' and 'faith' began here). Chaos has its place: in the form of human minds and biological motion. We bring life to what would be an almost boring universe otherwise; yet remember we can't survive without regular suroundings.
Now, in a related bit, you might enjoy Totally Random by Leftfield Studios, an amateur stopmotion filming group I'm affiliated with. (My real name'll show up in the credits to the feature-length film we're doing. ) It's a mere 2MB download, in a simple .wmv format. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 03:21:01
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| Hmmm, Bookwyrm, you raise some interesting points. Unfortunately, I'll never see things your way.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 05:15:41
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Indeed Book, you are correct. I do remember hearing somewhere:
" The Earth was without form and void, and Darkness was upon the Face of the Deep."
But Law and chaos both exist at the same time yet they are separate. You see if something Chaotic happened. Umm Cow falls from sky and crushes an Ogre (Ah, the ultimate spell for any mage ), there is usually a reason said cow fell from sky and crushed said ogre. A grand scheme of things... Fate if you will. Yet none could actually predict that a cow could fall from the sky. Each man makes his own destiny true. But how does one know how many times one has actually existed and walked the same (yet chaotically chosen) path? ... There was a name for this effect.. But it escapes me right now.....Well... there it tis...Whatever it is |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Kezef/ Dieties argument
