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Originally posted by The Sage

Regardless, I see that portal to the saurial homeworld in the Lost Vale being a major arcane element that would draw the interest of the Shadovar.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Markustay

It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.

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I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could.

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Originally posted by Dennis

Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.

One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.

One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."

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-Just their mere existence could be reason enough.

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Originally posted by Dennis

Perhaps. But Telamont has seen far stranger races and mostly ignored them. Whatever it was that drew him to the saurials must be really more important than the the mere existence of the said creatures.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Markustay

It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.

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I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could.

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Admit it, you just dislike Shade too much you that you find such "find" unlikely. If the Zhents were the ones who found it, would you be happy?

Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.

One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."

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Originally posted by Bakra

How come they didn’t use the portal like Sage suggested a few posts back?

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

Perhaps. But Telamont has seen far stranger races and mostly ignored them. Whatever it was that drew him to the saurials must be really more important than the the mere existence of the said creatures.

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-It stands to reason that the Shadovar could have known about the settlement, through means Sage mentioned above. From there, there's various plausible explanations. Most simply, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, when you're making plans or actually carrying out taking over the region, you don't want to leave any wild cards carelessly laying around- they could have subjugated the Saurials as a preventative measure. They could have subjugated the Saurials simply as a means to gain access to the portals to their world, the true thing the Shadovar might have been after. They could have believed the Saurials with the Star Peaks Dinosaurs, which had direct connections to Netheril.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Bakra

How come they didn’t use the portal like Sage suggested a few posts back?

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I'm thinking now, that maybe the Spellplague either disrupted and/or collapsed the portal* back to the saurial homeworld.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.

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Those three feats were not done at the same time. And they were not done "casually." They did lose some men, too. And there a number of reasons they did those three, and the explanations, for me, are good enough. It's a matter of how one accepts it, or not.

On the saurials: If Larloch could find and get so many magical treasures (Thakorsil's Seat, Moon Orb, etc.) guarded by potent magic which even the gods would be wary to disturb, why can't Shade, which has an army of competent warriors and wizards, masters of magic few understand, not be able to find a small bunch of lost race?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else.

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Originally posted by The Sage

It's noted that while the saurials don't have many connections to the world outside the Vale, they do have a number of young among them who have been cautioned by the elders for wandering beyond the limits of the Lost Vale. And it's likely that these saurial wanderers are the cause for the increased "tales and legends" of dragon/dinosaur-like folk pervading surrounding cultures.

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Originally posted by The Sage

I think you mean The Maelstrom's Eye.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

They could have subjugated the Saurials simply as a means to gain access to the portals to their world, the true thing the Shadovar might have been after.

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What for, especially after what Moander did there? They couldn't find diseased jungles or wastelands closer to home?
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

how come they've continued to expand, and haven't had to fight to hold on to what they've got? One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.

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Those three feats were not done at the same time. And they were not done "casually." They did lose some men, too. And there a number of reasons they did those three, and the explanations, for me, are good enough. It's a matter of how one accepts it, or not.

On the saurials: If Larloch could find and get so many magical treasures (Thakorsil's Seat, Moon Orb, etc.) guarded by potent magic which even the gods would be wary to disturb, why can't Shade, which has an army of competent warriors and wizards, masters of magic few understand, not be able to find a small bunch of lost race?

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Larloch is an insanely powerful guy whose been active in the Realms for centuries. He's got 60+ liches at his command, and Lurue only knows how many agents working for him, both directly and so indirectly as to confuse Machiavelli. And he's got some sort of arrangement with Mystra.

Compare that to a few dozen powerful mages and a bunch of folks that have been out of the picture for almost the entire time Larloch's been active. A bunch of folks who should be too busy elsewhere to go looking for some isolated patch of ground that a near-god couldn't find when he was literally directly over it.

How are those things anywhere close to the same thing?

And if it was so challenging for Shade to take Sembia, destroy Zhentil Keep, and threaten the Heartlands with destruction -- then how come they've continued to expand, and haven't had to fight to hold on to what they've got? One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.

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Originally posted by Dennis

I like this. If the Spellplague managed to ravage an entire magical civilization (Halruaa), how much more would its effects be to a race a hundred times smaller.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.

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Originally posted by Thauranil

Well in the Neverwinter novels one notices a lot of new recruits in the ranks of the Shadovar. Including a certain highly effective assassin and they seem to to supplementing their forces with shadow wraiths and other undead. From this one can concur that Shade enclave has indeed taken significant losses and is seeking reinforcements from the non Netherese population of the realms. Though it does seem that said recruits occupy a very low rung in the hierarchy of the Shadovar at present , this will no doubt change as more new entrants join their ranks and prove their ability.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

I like this. If the Spellplague managed to ravage an entire magical civilization (Halruaa), how much more would its effects be to a race a hundred times smaller.

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-Being all plotarmory, the Spellplague could have simply skipped over them and done nothing.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.

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Because people can be bribed and manipulated. It's a human weakness. And the Shadovar nearly always manage to exploit that particular weakness. Manipulation comes before force. That has always been Telamont's (Dethud's, and Melegaunt's) mantra. And that's how they got Sembia.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.

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Because people can be bribed and manipulated. It's a human weakness. And the Shadovar nearly always manage to exploit that particular weakness. Manipulation comes before force. That has always been Telamont's (Dethud's, and Melegaunt's) mantra. And that's how they got Sembia.

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-And, when that doesn't work, brute magical force does. With relative ease, Telamont charmed/dominated a mighty Blue Dragon, the Suzerain of the Anauroch- and received the aid of it's underlings and servitors as a result. Similar applications on targeted individuals who are resistant to bribery nets a similar end.

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Originally posted by Dennis

True. Hence, the 'before.'

That's why I prefer him to some other villains, who act first prior to thinking carefully of the possible options.

In a world awash with big fishes, it's preposterous to "always" display your might. You'd just make yourself an easy target.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

True. Hence, the 'before.'

That's why I prefer him to some other villains, who act first prior to thinking carefully of the possible options.

In a world awash with big fishes, it's preposterous to "always" display your might. You'd just make yourself an easy target.

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-Generally speaking, I think the real movers and shakers you need to worry about follow that mantra. Sememmon, and Khelben, for example. So many times, the guys who get all showy about their might are really just compensating for the lack of true control they know they don't possess. Maalthiir of Hilltop and Lord Geildarr Ithym of Llorkh immediately come to mind- midlevel magicians who are quick to show off their power, because if it came to a prolonged kind of battle, they'd lose.

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