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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 17:38:26
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| 1111 posts! |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 18:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
And nice armor, Diffan! But yea, that's pretty light in comparison to historical plate armors. Looks like fun for fairs and stuff though.
That's actually fairly reasonable for a field plate harness. From antiquity to the modern day, main battle armour for warriors has pretty consistently ranged from 30-50 lbs., after all. Lighter than this usually means less than full coverage of the important areas*, while heavier armour than this tends to degrade the long-term effectiveness of the soldier, in particular his strategic and operational mobility.
Agreed, though material used certainly plays an important part with armor. For example, if I could affort titanium full-plate or field plate for our "LARP'ing" needs, I definitly would. But as it's ridiculous to work with and not worth the investment, 18 ga is a better fit. And with our group (Dagorhir) that uses padded weapons, there is really no requirment to wear armor and most people go for Leather (1/4 in thick is standard 'armor-grade') becuase it's lightweight, flexable, easily design-able, and relatively easy for beginners to work with. I went for steel.....well because I think it looks better and more intimidating. At 6'3" and 280 lbs, there are few people who enjoy being on a shield wall with me charging, lol.
Still, had I to do it over again, I might have gone with leather for the reason mentioned above. Plate looks fine and all, but you can do a LOT with Leather to make it look awesome, fantasy-ish, and still have it be fairly protective of your vitals. This is what I like in my Fantasy Armor art. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 19:35:59
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There seems to be different underlying assumptions. The extreme opposites being "there's someone throwing fireballs, so anything goes" and "if it isn't entirely based on given facts, it needs to be more thoroughly thought out".
I'm for trying, as Richard Baker put it in PO:C&T, "not to make it more realistic, but to make combat more believable".
Generally inclined to the latter and specifically Realms never seemed to walk the Disney route.
So, when done to a silly degree generally is not a good idea or merely fanservice for the sake of fanservice - a desperate attempt to compensate for the lack of anything really good.
That said, if the people always ran with efficiency, there won't be... lots of things, really, starting with the early fireams. So, no point to "repel as a live leper" either. Heh.  Milder versions are far from the worst that can happen anyway. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 00:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam: "Why need an armor when you have magic?"
Magic is not unlimited. To perform a task with magic, you must expend magical energy. This energy is sometimes easy to obtain, but it is never entirely free.
That's something no archmage has to worry about. A ring or bracer of protection is better than a mundane armor. Provided, of course, that he's not stupid enough to step on a dead magic zone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 00:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
...or when 99% of all weapons on Toril won't harm you? 
Because you never know when you are facing one of the 1%.
Always side with the rich and powerful, carry around expensive magic items and spells, treating the commoners like replaceable rabble . . . PCs are the 1%. 
Carry on!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 00:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
...or when 99% of all weapons on Toril won't harm you?
Because you never know when you are facing one of the 1%.
I would imagine that it would be fairly difficult to surprise Szass Tam, especially with something as mundane as a magical weapon.
Szass Tam was tricked more than once, but even if he wore an armor those times, he would not have been saved from such unfortunate events. The most recent one was when Malark turned on him, and kicked him hard so he'd be trapped in Thakorsil's Seat. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 00:26:00
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I was looking at armor over on DeviantART, and I came across THIS, and thought, "I could see Alusair in that". I was thinking that would be my upward limit of 'cheesy' in her case....
And then I noticed the high-heels. 
Like I said before, depending upon the subject matter and the intention, I enjoy a broad spectrum of fantasy art. So long as the depiction fits the the situation, its all good.
Maybe that outfit was her "piss mom & dad off" royal armor, for state events (not for actual battle... but it could be serviceable in a pinch). She'd still have to lose the stiletto sabatons.
EDIT: WotC, hire This Guy. He's got some excellent ideas (and yes, some of his armor is 'over the top', but most of it is within reason).
Love his orcs - that slinger is off-the-hook.
EDIT2: LOL- Thats the same guy who did the other pic I posted! He also has very strong feelings about profiting from his art - {sigh} artists....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2012 00:40:55 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 00:57:09
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While I do lean toward fantasy over reality in armor, I do tend to think that no self-respecting warrior would wear a blinged-out thong into battle.
I do think having parts of your legs bare is ok, but having no genital coverage for the ladies is just ridiculous.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 19 Feb 2012 01:46:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 01:41:51
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| A "masterwork" sharpened thong with higher defense and cunningly crafted compartments which could hide a pair of battle axes, however ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 01:54:54
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| thta link had some nice artwork MArkustay... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 02:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was looking at armor over on DeviantART, and I came across THIS, and thought, "I could see Alusair in that". I was thinking that would be my upward limit of 'cheesy' in her case....
I'm pretty sure it's Alusair on the cover of Crusade... And while that is kinda-sorta boobplate, it is not, at least, form-fitting boobplate. Ditto for Laurana's armor on the original Dragons of Winter Night cover. (Before I read those books, I thought the person in blue was a dude, and that Tasslehoff was female!  )
Of course, even Elmore has done his share of cheesecake armor. (Are the male knights following her because she's a good leader, or because they're getting a good look at what all isn't covered by armor?  )
That said, Elmore also gave us the girl on horseback in one of my fave bits of his art, and this cleric, who most closely fits what I consider realistic armor on a woman. And other than her lack of pants, I think the girl under the rock is wearing fairly realistic armor in this pic.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 03:26:14
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that cheesecake elmore armor shot is what I'd call barely functionable.
and if one wants to inspire ones troops stand out.
Gen PAtton wore a silver colored helmet.
ceasar wore a red cloak.
lead by example.....
on the otherhand... I'd allow the elmorecheesecake..... but as piecemail and or as Light Calvary armor
I like it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 19 Feb 2012 03:29:01 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 03:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
...or when 99% of all weapons on Toril won't harm you?
Because you never know when you are facing one of the 1%.
I would imagine that it would be fairly difficult to surprise Szass Tam, especially with something as mundane as a magical weapon.
Szass Tam was tricked more than once, but even if he wore an armor those times, he would not have been saved from such unfortunate events. The most recent one was when Malark turned on him, and kicked him hard so he'd be trapped in Thakorsil's Seat.
Wasn't he free within an hour or so? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 04:30:22
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Yes, by the zulkirs themselves. Though that didn't erase the fact that he's tricked by his former 'friend.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 05:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's something no archmage has to worry about. A ring or bracer of protection is better than a mundane armor. Provided, of course, that he's not stupid enough to step on a dead magic zone.
Even archmages need protection, of course. An archmage who is quick, cunning and skilled will be less likely to be struck than one who is not, but no amount of luck, cunning or skill can ensure that one is not hit by a physical attack at some point. You may at some point face an enemy of equal luck, cunning or skill or you may simply find yourself caught by the remorseless calculus of chance, hit by a more-or-less random threat.
There is no such thing as 'magic enough to be able to ignore any potential sources of harm', because there is no way to know that something is guaranteed not to harm you. Even if you think that there are no orcs wielding magical weapons among the horde, you might be wrong and one of them could have weapon of great power, forged by orc shaman-smiths, torn from the cold dead grasp of a prior victim or unearthed from antediluvien ruins. What seems like a harmless old woman alone in the forest could be anything from a sorceress of great power to shapeshifted monster, or a divine being out for a stroll.
As protection, mundane armour enchanted with equivalent magical energy is better than just the magical armour substitute of ring or bracers (or other items). If you had infinite money or infinite power, you could just enchant the magical substitute more, but you don't have infinite resources.
Even the most powerful mortal* on Toril doesn't have infinite resources. His magic is not infinite and he cannot call upon infinite physical resources either. It doesn't matter if he believes that he's above such considerations as money or possessions or if he can literally summon anything he might want from the aether with magic, there is still a limit to his resources.
If he can create any physical thing with his magic or by using areas connected** to other planes of existence and compel any service with the same methods, his assets and revenue are measured in magical energy and access to magical real estate, but that doesn't change the fact that he does not operate at any post-scarcity level.
Economic considerations still very much apply to the mighty of Toril and since it is possible to buy or sell magical energy through magical items or spellcasting services, it is even possible to put a gold price value on the arcane powers available to the most powerful. They might resent this, but it doesn't change the fact that it is real.
For every 100,000 gp (or the equivalent spent in magical power) on an item like Bracers of Armour, that's a 100,000 gp less that an archmage has to spend on other things, some of which are also good for survival, like a belt of potions that heal them or contingencies that teleport them away, etc. So, it doesn't matter how rich or powerful you are, the price always matters, because there are so many other things you could be buying.
As I believe I noted earlier, a suit of armour well made from physically strong and durable materials will serve as better protection for any given level of magical energy (and thus, the equivalent of gp) applied to it than something that is not inherently protective in its physical properties. Nothing will ever make the wearer immune to all potential harm, but a good suit of functional armour combined with all the best protective spells that an archmage knows will provide better protection from physical harm than just the protective spells alone.
D&D rules include an implicit assumption about magical energy in forbidding arcane spellcasters from wearing armour. Given four editions of rule-changes, multi-classing, unearthed arcana, kits, player and GM options, other optional rules and exceptions, splatbooks, prestige classes, paragon paths and what-have-yous, it has become clear that however armour interferes with spellcasting, it is not a simple process. It can perhaps be said that 'some types of armour interfere with the channeling of arcane energy the way some traditions perform it'.
Given this, it is perhaps understandable that archmages from these traditions are limited in their choice for armour. Even so, in times of war, these archmages have an incentive to protect themselves with a combination of the best magic they have and the most advanced non-magical armour available that does not hinder their spellcasting (after their spells are applied to the armour, it stops being non-magical, of course).
Anyone not limited by such concerns will gravitate toward armour that is not so heavy as to impede him in his military role***, but covers as much of his body as possible without limiting his mobility. He may have access to materials that are unavailable to lesser mortals, but the final product will end up looking much like the best non-magical armour that the most technologically advanced culture he has access to can produce.
Being powerful and wealthy means that the expense of the materials and labour of crafting the armour before enchanting it is not a large part of the final cost and so the primary reason to select armour of less coverage or limited protection is removed. The prohibitive expense of good armour is the real reason anyone would go on a battlefield without wearing as much as he could while still being able to march and fight.
Being unarmoured in battle sucks and it is not a fashion that is likely to catch on anywhere. For one thing, the proponents of a fashion are more influential if they are able to communicate their concepts to others. Being dead tends to limit their possibilities in that direction. In the real world, anyone who fought more than once in close hand-to-hand combat learned that covering anywhere likely to be hit with something likely to stop the attack was a much better survival tactic than trying to rely on skill or luck to avoid being hit at all.****
Those who survived battles and planned to get in more used the resources and technology of their culture to craft some kind of armour that protects all that needs protecting. The materials and methods used varied, sometimes because of cultural factors and sometimes technological and economic ones, and environmental concerns such as climate influenced the weight and coverage that a man could handle while still being able to soldier, but in general, the morphology of armour is much less varied than that of purely decorative cultural artifacts.
No matter his power, an archmage will find that the most effective shape and design for armour that actually functions as protection without magic (and better protection with it) is similar to some successful type of armour from Earth. If the armour is made with magic, the difficulties inherent with smithing at low technological levels can be mostly avoided and less effective types of armour than maille or plate would be unecessary. But the final shape would be pretty similar, because while periods of fashion are cultural, the brutal selection process of warfare ensures that armour form was driven by utility of function more than any cultural factor.
Even in a fantasy world, anyone who plans to be in a battle will want armour, at least if he knows how battles work. Those too poor to afford any armour will be the light infantry and skirmishers***** and then armour will get heavier and more advanced according to wealth. Anyone rich enough for magical armour ought to be rich enough to get himself a decent suit to enchant and the very richest and most powerful ought to be wearing the pinnacle of both magic and technology, i.e. enchanted plate armour.
As I said earlier, for actual military use, armour in a fantasy society will not be all that different from real armour and the differences will be cosmetic only. The bizarre and fantastical armours will be things created for show, in a conspicious display of magical might, in effect, saying: "Look at how powerful my magic is! I can afford to waste it by imposing artificial limitations on myself like this!"
If something is far enough from being armour that it doesn't violate the mysterious conditions that limit spellcasters, it has a practical purpose. Things that look like parts of armour, but aren't, like jeweled boob-plates, flimsy and fragile bracers or thong-mail can all simply be enchanted in the same way as the magical item known as 'Bracers of Defence/Armour', i.e. provides whole body protection that is incompatible with physical armour.
For spellcasters who are crippled by wearing physical armour, this is a practical and sensible defence under any circumstances and is probably what they wear to war. For others, wearing something that is clearly not armour is going to be socially acceptable in more places and settings than wearing plate harness. Anyone who is interested in being protected without being obviously garbed for war might want one.
Since these items are not supposed to be protecting in any physical sense, but only through magic, their design and the extent of their coverage is dictated only by mystical considerations, fashion and the tastes of the creator or buyer.
Artwork in fantasy books is usually of adventurers. Some adventurers grimly slog through uncharted wilderness, others glide on velvet feet through glittering balls. Some battle fiendish hordes, others unravel subtle plots. The adventuring life is not only fighting. A lot of adventurers find that they need to know how to dress for more than just battle.
The successful, rich and well organised have a battle panoply of well-made and well-enchanted armour and also own some jewelry, clothing or quasi-armour enchanted with protective spells that they can wear where battle dress is not appropriate.
Most adventurers are not successful, of course, and so are stuck with a strange mixture of a lucky find or two of real magical armour panoply, sensible non-magical gear, discarded 'artistic' magic armour and the odd protective item or two. When they fight, they fight in what they own and what they generally wear, even if it is not as effective as armour that is designed and built for war.
So, even though everyone on Toril (and other fantasy worlds) who knows anything at all about warfare, from lowly peasant-cum-spearman to archmages and warlords, knows that the best protection is an enchanted plate harness whose design is very like real-world armour designs, there is one group of people who are very likely to be wearing something else while doing something dangerous. That group is adventurers and since fantasy artwork is most often of them, they are the reason for the overrepresentation of 'impractical' armour design in fantasy art.
*Or even immortal, as long as he is still bounded by the Prime Material.
**Through gates or otherwise.
***If he travels by magic or some strong mount instead of marching, that could be heavier than most field armour was. Even without magical strength or lightening the armour with magic (both of which are also possibilities, of course), a trooper who has no duties but front-line fighting on foot can probably handle ca 70 lbs. of armour. If he fights mounted, he needs less agility and can manage up to a 100 lbs. or so. If he's stronger than the 'average' professional soldier in good training (by magic, say), multiply these values by the ratio of his strength compared to a baseline warrior.
****In a duel or even a clash of two small groups, it may be possible to anticipate and identify attacks well enough to parry or dodge them successfully. In a clash of armies, there are too many factors to keep track of for that to be a realistic possibility. The processing power required to keep track of all the missiles that could theoretically hit a single spot where someone is standing is more than any mortal mind can handle. Add to that that the lines of battle shift constantly and that enemies might be swept with the tide (or a force could deliberately make its way) behind the front line of allies. Attacks from hand-held weapons can thus come from any side and no realistic human can foresee or spot them all in time, especially given the incredible profusion of visual, auditory and tactile sensation that abound in battle, complicating the identification of threats. No level of skill is enough to defend from attacks that a person didn't know about until it hit.
*****It is a misunderstanding that archers, slingers or skirmishers prefer to wear no or light armour. In general, the historical reason there are any 'light' troops in an army is that some of the soldiers can't afford good armour. If rich enough, a man can serve as an archer just as well while wearing a good hauberk of mail, back-and-breast plate or even field plate (provided it is well made) and skirmishers can easily do their jobs while wearing a thinner version of what men-at-arms are wearing. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Feb 2012 22:30:45 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 05:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was looking at armor over on DeviantART, and I came across THIS, and thought, "I could see Alusair in that". I was thinking that would be my upward limit of 'cheesy' in her case....
I'm pretty sure it's Alusair on the cover of Crusade... And while that is kinda-sorta boobplate, it is not, at least, form-fitting boobplate.
Generally, "anatomically correct" plate wouldn't be that useful, since if you mark out the breasts individually on the armour, then it provides a nice means of guiding your opponent's blade right in between them for a strike. You'd either meld both into a single adjustment to the armour, or you wouldn't use it at all (the preferred option). The goal is just as much (if not moreso) to deflect as it is to absorb.
I'm also reminded of a scene in the fourth book of the Belgariad by David Eddings, where one of the female characters is trying to get armour fitted. The entire scene is hilariously funny, since it mocks, averts and subverts the concept of sexualised armour all at the same time.
As to what I prefer, generally somewhere in between but edging towards realistic. In Dragon Age Origins, the "massive armour" looks like stylised plate mail, and although it still has massive pauldrons and isn't all that effective, it's within my suspension of disbelief.
quote:
Are the male knights following her because she's a good leader, or because they're getting a good look at what all isn't covered by armor?
The bearded guy off to the left is looking at her with what seems to be a shocked expression to me. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 06:00:31
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as for the boob plate.... afaik there has been no testing done on that to determine its usefulness against a weaponstrike, any weaponstrike or style of combat(half handing).....
we should get this to the mythbusters.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 06:15:30
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The only armor Wonder Woman wears are cute little bracelets.
And they protect her from bullets.
Its not about the size, its how you use it.
And while looking for a good pic of her deflecting bullets, I came across THIS, which I find hilarious since Sage mentioned Powergirl. Talk about BAD comic art.
There is 'boob plate', and then there is just 'boob'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 06:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
While I do lean toward fantasy over reality in armor, I do tend to think that no self-respecting warrior would wear a blinged-out thong into battle.
I do think having parts of your legs bare is ok, but having no genital coverage for the ladies is just ridiculous.
Cheers
Magic. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 06:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only armor Wonder Woman wears are cute little bracelets.
And they protect her from bullets.
Its not about the size, its how you use it.
And while looking for a good pic of her deflecting bullets, I came across THIS, which I find hilarious since Sage mentioned Powergirl. Talk about BAD comic art.
There is 'boob plate', and then there is just 'boob'.
They've discussed that boob-window in the comics, in a sort of 4th-wall breaking way. Goes to show, creative types know exactly what they're doing ... even it takes another creative type to figure it out. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 06:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is 'boob plate', and then there is just 'boob'.
There's an old animated series (early 90's) where the female protagonist used her boobs as shield because they're naturally made of the hardest metal on that planet. Talk about natural armor.
Forgot the title, though. I only watched a few episodes that time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 11:27:31
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| Well i voted for somewhere in between because whats really unrealistic is expecting fantasy characters to dress up like those who inhabited a similar era in our world. There is also the fact that Magic is prevalent in the realms so you don't have to get into a 100 kg suit of armor in order to protect yourself on the battlefield. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 12:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only armor Wonder Woman wears are cute little bracelets.
And they protect her from bullets.
Its not about the size, its how you use it.
And while looking for a good pic of her deflecting bullets, I came across THIS, which I find hilarious since Sage mentioned Powergirl. Talk about BAD comic art.
There is 'boob plate', and then there is just 'boob'.
That is the perfect way to look at it.
Despite my vote, I cannot disagree that two small chainmail triangles and a chainmail thong are rather ludicrous when one is talking about armor as protective garb (though it would likely be appropriate for a bard's performing outfit). But the point is, and disagree if you wish, such things have aided in the sale of RPG systems and supplements down the years. The artist that Markustay showcased has some incredible work, I'll agree - those images could be seen as 'in between', in my opinion, and the quality is undeniable.
It is incumbent upon the consumer to patronize those products that they find useful and acceptable (much like the 4th Edition Realms debate). Any image that one finds offensive, they should not use it, nor purchase that product if it is that jarring to them.
Personally, I am a follower of the Tom Lehrer School of Artistic Interpretation, which he states in his song 'Smut' (first line included for rhyme):
"Oh, books can be indecent books, though recent books are bolder,
for filth, I'm glad to say, is in the mind of the beholder."
I firmly agree with that statement. Where one person sees art, another sees misogyny and filth. Where one sees empowerment, another sees a sop to political correctness. Both ends of the spectrum are unlikely to change. It is gratifying that the vast majority of the scribe community here falls somewhere in the middle.
I have seen both sides of the argument, from an article saying that 'chain bikini art' was the greatest thing this side of Playboy Magazine (and he did in fact come across as rather sick), to a blog by a woman who came a step and a half short of an almost-libelous attack on the morals and ethics of none other than Larry Elmore himself, among several artists at a national convention (and I came away thinking not that she had made a case for her argument, but that she was a vicious feminist bigot that needed some serious mental help). Both of these extremes are thankfully lacking here in Candlekeep.
In the end - use the art you find appropriate. In-game, the DM will tell you what is what. If you don't want to wear that +5 Plate Battle Halter of Tactical Superiority - then don't, and keep your full suit of plate. No DM worth his dice is going to insist you put it on. Just because Alias wore slightly risque' armor does not mean every warriorette is going to do so.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 19 Feb 2012 12:18:12 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 13:45:52
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I could write a wall of text about what I'd prefer, but... since a picture is said to express more than a thousand words, I'll just link to a certain tumblr
I'd have to say my favourites would be this, and this |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 14:36:58
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I understand what you were going for with the second pic, but do women really have rubber arms? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 15:50:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm pretty sure it's Alusair on the cover of Crusade... And while that is kinda-sorta boobplate, it is not, at least, form-fitting boobplate.
Dunno, methinks it's showy, but not purpose-defeating at all. To really work as a stiffening rib this sternum-keel needs enough of reinforcement under it that the boobplate's deflecting-blades-inside effect won't matter much. And its, er, profiling on a horizoontal cutoff is not very deep anyway. Maybe, suboptimal use of what it will take to make the idea work, but not bad per se.
The vertical profile may be even good against blows from below, since it traps what a smooth plate would deflect into the face. Much like rotund cuirasses. Even with the helmet on, probably it's still healthier to be hit into an armorplate close to the center of mass instead of the visor's lower lip.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that cheesecake elmore armor shot is what I'd call barely functionable.
[...]on the otherhand... I'd allow the elmorecheesecake..... but as piecemail and or as Light Calvary armor
Well, as a semidecorative application on top of light mail it at least won't hurt... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 19:06:06
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| An interesting article here. It focusses on breastplates but basically states that, for a variety of reasons, women generally wore the same armours as men. Although it's true that this is just not as exciting as this. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 22:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
In the end - use the art you find appropriate. In-game, the DM will tell you what is what. If you don't want to wear that +5 Plate Battle Halter of Tactical Superiority - then don't, and keep your full suit of plate. No DM worth his dice is going to insist you put it on. Just because Alias wore slightly risque' armor does not mean every warriorette is going to do so.
- OMH
Funny thing, that. IIRC, when her gear was described in the first book, it was originally described as sensible gear. The stuff on the cover is the hardly-counts-as-armour that was specifically described... as the stuff she was put into by the bad guys. Forcibly. And the hole over her heart was meant for a specific purpose; namely, killing her.
Also, you say 'don't consume the products if you object to them'... dude, I don't think you realise how prevalent this stuff really is. It's wearying, and alienating. Especially the bit by guys who mansplain that it's no big deal, a fuss over nothing, because hey, it doesn't bother them...
Keeping silent and not contributing changes nothing. These are things that should be pointed out.
Or, basically, Garen Thal's whole post earlier in the thread, which was excellent. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 19 Feb 2012 22:41:05 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 22:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An interesting article here. It focusses on breastplates but basically states that, for a variety of reasons, women generally wore the same armours as men. Although it's true that this is just not as exciting as this.
Just so. Real armour worn on the battlefield, for men or women, in fantasy or real history, varies much less than people think. This is because optimising protection while minimising weight and encumbrance is much, much more important than any other factors. And the solutions found for this were much the same for all cultures that attained a given level of technological sophistication, because of the physics and physiology involved in the engineering aren't cultural. The overall shape of armour is generally dictated by its functionality, not fashion.
It's in showpieces and artwork that you find the bizarre and what is meant to be the stylish or sexy. In a fantasy world, of course, many of these could be created by magical beings as a deliberate act of conspicious consumption, i.e. showing that they have magic enough to make impractical things practical.
Such things may fairly frequently end up being worn by adventurers. When they start out, most adventurers are not rich and even successful adventurers usually have a mish-mash of scrounged gear, not a purpose-planned outfit. And while practical enchanted armour is better than an impractical magical armour, an impractical magical armour may still be better than non-magical armour.
As for the aesthetics of the above pictures, I must state that I find sleek functionality deeply attractive. Tools that are perfectly designed and adapted for their purpose are made beautiful to me by their very functionality. I therefore find weapons and armour in artwork much more impressive and enjoyable when they were drawn* by someone who understands how they work** and look like they would be useful in a real fight.
*Or designed by costume designers.
**Or at the very least used a model for his design that actually worked in history. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 03:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
In the end - use the art you find appropriate. In-game, the DM will tell you what is what. If you don't want to wear that +5 Plate Battle Halter of Tactical Superiority - then don't, and keep your full suit of plate. No DM worth his dice is going to insist you put it on. Just because Alias wore slightly risque' armor does not mean every warriorette is going to do so.
- OMH
Funny thing, that. IIRC, when her gear was described in the first book, it was originally described as sensible gear. The stuff on the cover is the hardly-counts-as-armour that was specifically described... as the stuff she was put into by the bad guys. Forcibly. And the hole over her heart was meant for a specific purpose; namely, killing her.
Also, you say 'don't consume the products if you object to them'... dude, I don't think you realise how prevalent this stuff really is. It's wearying, and alienating. Especially the bit by guys who mansplain that it's no big deal, a fuss over nothing, because hey, it doesn't bother them...
Keeping silent and not contributing changes nothing. These are things that should be pointed out.
Or, basically, Garen Thal's whole post earlier in the thread, which was excellent.
I won't comment too deeply on the armor Alias was 'given', but by your own description, there's a reason for it, no?
My wife prefers 'realistic' armors...many are the times she's rolled her eyes at the 'skimpy' look in artwork, even though she is a fan of Elmore, Caldwell, and Parkinson, and her objections usually go no further than "Geez, you guys are so freaking weird.". By contrast, our very bestest friend (and her sister by choice), had a preference for the 'skimpy' look, and what's more, she could pull off the look with flair and style (her character could, that is) - she made it work. So it is not exclusively a 'guy' thing, and it never has been. As many of our sisters-in-dice like that sort of thing as not.
And when I say 'don't consume the products', I honestly mean exactly that. If something offends or disgusts someone to that point, they should put it back on the shelf and pick up something else. Vote with the wallet. I honestly believe you should follow your own standards in that regard, and not heed any 'mansplaining' - what does or doesn't offend someone else shouldn't influence your own choices - if it bugs you, reject what it offers, and purchase a product that gives you what you're looking for.
True story: Back when Paizo was still publishing Dragon, they published an issue on sorceresses. Why? From the mail they had gotten in a certain period, some had been for rules, others had been for world information, others for other miscellaneous and sundry, and a large part (well over half) had been letters asking (essentially) "Where are the chainmail bikinis????"
The private response: "Geez, this is nuts...I know...let's do an issue on a class that does tend to wear skimpy outfits. Sorceresses!" To the readers, they said "We've heard you! Here ya go!" Without actually addressing the specifics, they neatly solved the problem. I will try to find the issue in question.
I won't say that it's a fuss over nothing. But in many cases, it does seem like there are those who are trying to tip the seesaw all the way in the opposite direction (whether from genuine belief, or just in the name of political correctness, or what have you). The problem there lies with the fact that someone in the consumer base is going to wind up being alienated. The market for such things is there - so the companies have to basically choose who they're going to torque off with including/excluding certain materials and artwork. And they will go with the proven formula more often than not.
- OMH |
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Fantasy Armor
