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varyar
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 18:33:40
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As a bit of an experiment, what if the Seldarine was the size of the Faerunian pantheon? (Say in a world where the Crown Wars didn't destroy elven pre-eminance in Faerun, or whatever)
I came up with a list of the gods of the pre-4E Faerunian pantheon (most, at least - I'm sure there's a couple I missed) and did my best to map existing members of the Seldarine and Lolth's crew to them. There's still a lot of open positions, and more than a few debatable calls, but this is what I came up with. Alignment and divine rank aren't as important as (roughly) aligning the portfolios, for our purposes. Any thoughts and suggestions/corrections?
Akadi - air; Aerdrie Faenya
Auril - cold, winter; Tarsellis Meunniduin (a deity from the old Dragon expansion of the Seldarine, not evil there, but the portfolio matches)
Azuth - spellcasters; ??? (the first stumper - there's more than a few elven gods of different types of magic floating out on the edge of canon, and Corellon is god of Elven magic in general, among many other things that made him really hard to place, but spellcasters as a group? No one came to mind)
Bane - hatred, tyranny; Kiaransalee (slavery and vengeance track pretty close to hatred and tyranny... right? ::cough::)
Beshaba - misfortune, bad luck; ???
Chauntea - agriculture, farmers; Elebrin Liothiel (the elven god of agriculture out of Races of the Wild)
Cyric - murder, lies, strife; Vhaeraun (Vhaeraun and Selvetarm are both perfect fits for their Faerunian analogues, I think)
Deneir - literature, art; ???
Eldath - quiet nature, springs and pools; Sarula Iliene (her canon portfolio of nature and nixies is a good match for shy Eldath)
Finder Wyvernspur - cycle of life, transformation of art; ???
Garagos - war, destruction, battle; Selvetarm
Gargauth - betrayal, cruelty; Keptolo (imported from Greyhawk, where he's apparently Lolth's consort and god of flattery, rumors, and the like, which, with the right dose of malice, can be cruel and treacherous)
Gond - construction, artifice; ???
Grumbar - earth; Tilevanar (fiddling things a bit so that the earlier name/personality of Darahl Firecloak is a deity in his own right; let's call this the Seldarine version of the Tymora/Besheba split)
Gwaeron Windstrom - tracking, rangers; ???
Helm - guardians, protection; ???
Ilmater - endurance, suffering; ???
Istishia - water; Deep Sashelas
Jergal - fatalism, mortal remains of the dead; ???
Kelemvor - death, the dead; Naralis Analor (another creation of Dragon magazine, a goddess of peaceful dying and death)
Kossuth - fire; Darahl Firecloak (the other, younger half of Tilevanar)
Lathander - dawn, spring; ???
Lliira - joy, liberty; Eilistraee
Lolth - drow, spiders, chaos; Lolth remains Lolth
Loviatar - pain, torture; ???
Lurue - intelligent beasts; ???
Malar - hunting, bloodlust; Solonor Thelandira (the obvious noble contrast to Malar)
Mask - thieves, shadows; Erevan Ilesere
Mielikki - forests, autumn; Khalreshaar (Mielikki's elven alias)
Milil - poetry, song; Melira Taralen (an elven bard/music god from Dragon)
Mystra - magic; ???
Nobanion - royality, good beasts; ??? (one of Corellon's two servitor spirits, maybe?)
Oghma - knowledge, invention; Labelas Enoreth
Red Knight - strategy, tactics; Vandria Gilmadrith
Savras - divination; Kirith Sotheril (from Dragon, goddess of divination and enchantment alike)
Selune - the moon, stars; Sehanine Moonbow
Shar - night, darkness; Araleth Letheranil (while Araleth is, per Dragon, a god of stars and twilight, that's close enough to (untainted) night for our purposes, I think)
Sharess - hedonism, cats; ???
Shaundakul - travel, exploration; ???
Siamorphe - nobilty, royalty; Corellon Larethian (Corellon is hard to pin down, and could go in probably six or seven different slots, but I eventually settled on this - naturally, here, Corellon isn't as limited in stature as Siamorphe is; he remains a greater god)
Silvanus - wild nature; Rillifane Rallathil
Sune - beauty, love; Hanali Celanil
Talona - disease, poison; ???
Talos - storms, destruction; ???
Tempus - war, battle; Tethrin Veraldé (Tethrin has a narrower focus in canon, but seems a better fit for Tempus than Vandria Gilmadrith, who screams Red Knight analogue to me)
Torm - duty, loyalty; ??? (Corellon's other chief servant?)
Tymora - good fortune, skill; ???
Tyr - justice; Shevarash
Ulutiu - glaciers, the arctic; Rellavar Danuvien (a lesser god of snow, and frost sprites, put here to match Ulutiu's lesser rank than Auril)
Umberlee - the ocean; Trishina (not strictly an elven god, but closely tied to the Seldarine, and with some fudging, dolphins->ocean life->the ocean works...if you squint a lot...)
Uthgar - barbarian tribal god; Fenmarel Mestarine (patron of a particular group/nation of wild elves that matches the Uthgardt tribes, perhaps?)
Valkur - sailors, ships; ???
Velsharoon - necromancy; Alathrien Druanna (Alathrien is patron of conjuration magic, not necromancy, but Naralis Analor already has the death/dead slot, so our last school-of-magic-deity gets a different focus than her canon counterpart)
Waukeen - trade, wealth; ???
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https://www.dmsguild.com/product/493852/Leira-the-Mistshadow
Vandria Gilmadrith, Lady of Grief:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/481871/Vandria-Gilmadrith-Lady-of-Grief |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 18:57:25
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I like this - I had started something like this awhile back, for my own purposes (not a thred - just some stuff I was working on privately).
I may use your take as new springboard for my own ideas; easy to tweak something then start from scratch.
I wouldn't use the elemental powers - I like them as primordials. However, we have a second set of elemental powers (the elemental evils), and perhaps something can be done with those? I know they went a more Far Realms/aberational route with them at the end of 3e (if 'Elder Evils' = 'Elemental Evils', which I'm not even sure about).
I was working on some new theories regarding the Creator Races and the player Races just this morning - I'll have to write some of that down to find the broken logic in any of it. It ties into this project of yours - a proto-pantheon that existed before the human one (I believe Gray had a bunch of theories regarding this as well).
I also believe that at least one Mystryl (Weave-Power) was an Elf - I may have to give Ed a poke and see what stirs. Azuth is too young to be a primal power (although we do have at least one canon example of an Elven power being two different beings at different periods in time).
So we have at least two different things going on, over time, which really blurs the lines of the various pantheons. When a deity falls, usually something rises in its place, eventually. Sometimes it takes the same name (Midnight/Mystra), and sometimes it doesn't (Lathander/Aumanator), and sometimes it does both (Xvim/Bane). The other thing that happens is that deities' portfolios change, and they absorb portions of other powers, and also occasionally split-off portions of themselves (Tyche into Beshaba/Tymora), and not always into equal parts.
So not only do the powers actually change over time from one being to another, but they change internally as they absorb and release bits of themselves and others. Add to this deific conflict & portfolio-swapping, and also mortal perception (faith alters that which is believed in), then the entire question of 'racial deities' really goes right out the window.
So yeah, I am all for this sort of 'primal pantheon' thing, with replacements taking the place of other powers as time marches on, and the eldest of powers may not have even been from a race that exists anymore.
I'd also make Bane a specific aspect of Grummsh (like Talos is). He even looks like a half-orc! (Or maybe Gruumsh was his daddy... hmmmmm... Lolth be the mommy?) Only problem with that is Bane is too methodical - I doubt he could be the offspring of two chaotic powers. IF Gruumsh was his daddy, then it is more likely his mother was mortal (making Bane originally very similar to Xvim).
Hmph... maybe Xvim was actually a pre-godhood clone of Bane. 
Sorry - you touched upon one of my favorite subjects. Ignore my ramblings where they don't apply to the threads purpose.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2012 19:02:44 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 02:19:15
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I would have Corellon occupy Mystra's place in the elven pantheon as well; I agree with him being placed as a Siamorphe counterpart, but I think he needs to do double duty, simply because he is frequently described as the elven god of magic (among other things). Azuth is a quandary... but the Yuir pantheon might have someone to fit his role. Let me check Unapproachable East and get back to this post...
EDIT: I've found the names of six of the Yuir elven deities from an old scroll on the Seven Lost Gods (found here)
24: Simbul (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
25: Elikarashae (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
26: Magnar (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
27: Relkath (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
28: Vanathor (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
29: Zandilar (a lost deity of the Yuirwood elves)
(and four other deities of the Yuir)
Does anyone happen to have the names of the other four Yuir deities? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Feb 2012 02:32:31 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 02:40:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<chop>
I'd also make Bane a specific aspect of Grummsh (like Talos is). He even looks like a half-orc! (Or maybe Gruumsh was his daddy... hmmmmm... Lolth be the mommy?) Only problem with that is Bane is too methodical - I doubt he could be the offspring of two chaotic powers. IF Gruumsh was his daddy, then it is more likely his mother was mortal (making Bane originally very similar to Xvim).
Hmph... maybe Xvim was actually a pre-godhood clone of Bane.
Interesting ideas... and I concur with your later thoughts on Bane's parentage; if he had two divine parents, he wouldn't have needed to seek out divine ascension... imho, anyway. 
We need more published canon lore on the Dark Three... we've had some great bits thanks to the GHotR ("Knucklebones, Skull Bowling, and the Empty Throne") and the Brothers James ("Ironfang Keep" and "Monument to the Ancients"), but I want to have the whole story... or as much of it as needed to explain their origins and motivations; the first article cited covers their ascensions, in vague terms at least. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Feb 2012 02:42:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 02:41:29
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I'd rather have Ed's thoughts on that subject - hopefully we'll be getting that in the new Elminster source.
Simply Combine Oghma with Azuth and call him Thoth (who was in the Realms, canonically).
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Does anyone happen to have the names of the other four Yuir deities?
Lord Karsus and I (along with some others involved with the elven netbook project) had hashed some of this out, and I believe he went with other 'knowns' to flesh-out the pantheon (I think we even decided Auril should be one - talk about 'calling the shot', eh?)
I don't know how far he got with that - you may have to check with him. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2012 02:54:06 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 02:46:29
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| Mark... "that subject" being the Dark Three? If so, I absolutely concur. I'm hoping we'll see the Cormyr Lineage in there somewhere too... but I'm not holding my breath on that one. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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varyar
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 02:56:46
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I've always been curious about Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul before they became gods, too. That'd be a fantastic story to see, or even get some more hints of.
I *really* like the idea of Bane as one of Gruumsh's kids.
Corellon as god of magic makes sense. It's more integral to the elves - all the elves - than nobility.
But there should still be a god of nobility, at least one worshipped by the sun elves. (This is the problem of hewing to canon as far as this goes - there's way more divine positions than there are existing members of the Seldarine, even stealing from vanilla D&D and Greyhawk; I've got a few original creations I could use, but then it's less the Realms and more my Realms. Not sure what else to do, though. As far as the Yuir gods go (and I'm tempted to at the very least use the Simbul as the goddess of some school of magic, as a nod to her latter-day namesake), do we know anything about them aside from their names and their eventual merging with various extant gods?) |
Out Now on the DMs Guild:
Cormanthor: The First Flowering:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/502169/Cormanthor-The-First-Flowering
Leira the Mistshadow:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/493852/Leira-the-Mistshadow
Vandria Gilmadrith, Lady of Grief:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/481871/Vandria-Gilmadrith-Lady-of-Grief |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 03:19:01
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| I notice Vhaeraun as Mask isn't on your list, varyar. He remains one of my favorite elven deities. In my own campaign he has subsumed Mask and has heavy ties with the Queen of Air and Darkness (who may or may not be Auril) and the rest of the Unseelie Court. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 04:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lord Karsus and I (along with some others involved with the elven netbook project) had hashed some of this out, and I believe he went with other 'knowns' to flesh-out the pantheon (I think we even decided Auril should be one - talk about 'calling the shot', eh?)
I don't know how far he got with that - you may have to check with him.
-Nah, if that was done, it wasn't involving me or all of the EoF stuff. The extent of the other Yuir deities was that they existed, but that was that. You might be confusing the 'Lesser Elven Deities' section that included semi-Elven deities, like Oberon and Titania, and powers that weren't necessarily deities, or were aspects of deities, like Lathrael (Sp?), or Khaelrishar (Sp?). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 05:13:40
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I just know we discussed it, and had even toyed with umberlee as being one (some obscure reference of some 'ancient sea power' off the coast of Aglarond).
You had wanted to flesh-out the final four, and instead of being 'lost gods' we were considering making them (HB) known deities instead (so not so much 'lost' but rather have gone on to better things).
we could probably dig that up in that thread (nevermind - just tried. I think it had its own thread, and that appears to be gone now). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2012 05:14:30 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 06:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
EDIT: I've found the names of six of the Yuir elven deities from an old scroll on the Seven Lost Gods
Does anyone happen to have the names of the other four Yuir deities?
I think these deities were human |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 14:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The thread is gone? Wow, that sucks. Not that I had an inclination of going back to restarting things, but god knows how much informal brainstorming was lost. That one, the Kara-Tur one, the Hordelands one...
I haven't tried to find the K-T one in awhile, but last I checked it was still there (I really should copy and paste all of that into my new comp, considering I lost all my collected data on the region). The Utter East and Elven netbook threads are definitely both still there - yours I saw just yesterday while looking for the info for this thread.
But I distinctly recall you creating one about the Yuir totems - maybe that was here? Because I also remember someone 'official'(?) saying something about the Elven Netbook going from 'mostly canon' to 'pure homebrew' at that point (which is why I don't know if any of your/our musings made it in).
I still think Auril and Umberlee would make great additions to the Yuir Totems, perhaps under different names? They could use my HB Aurilana. I just noticed something (while playing with her name) - Umberlee. Hmmmm... another FR name with a 'shadowy' reference. She was probably one of the Dark (Unseelie) fey, along with Auril. I had thought they might be sisters, but now I doubt that, since we now know Auril is the Queen of Air & Darkness (still not thrilled with that lore, but its not as bad as some things). Originally, in my proto-cosmology, I pegged Auraushnne as the daughter of tQoA&D, but that doesn't work now.
I'll have to play with things a bit again, and see what develops. I also want to know more about this Keptolo guy - sounds like I can really use him.
I would say Mielikki is another of the 'forgotten four', but I've already slated her as a 'lost sister' to Loviatar and Kiputytto. Maybe she is a half-sister?
Hmmmm... just discovered something nifty - Finnish mythology uses a World-Tree cosmology. I find that VERY interesting.
I think I may have to turn my FR Kalevala (proto-Kalmyk) into a fey branch, similar to the Vanir. In fact, Kalevala and its citizens being fey works MUCH better in my proto-cosmology!!!
Time to start digging again - I may have dug-up another of those 'deeper secrets' Ed loaded the Realms with. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2012 14:55:47 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 15:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't tried to find the K-T one in awhile, but last I checked it was still there (I really should copy and paste all of that into my new comp, considering I lost all my collected data on the region). The Utter East and Elven netbook threads are definitely both still there - yours I saw just yesterday while looking for the info for this thread.
But I distinctly recall you creating one about the Yuir totems - maybe that was here? Because I also remember someone 'official'(?) saying something about the Elven Netbook going from 'mostly canon' to 'pure homebrew' at that point (which is why I don't know if any of your/our musings made it in).
-Ah, alright. I thought it was all gone or whatever. I haven't gone to the Wizards of the Coast messageboards in forever. I actually programmed my browser to block the website, lol. Whenever it was, like two, three years ago, when it was to the point that I couldn't actually enjoy participating because of people constantly trolling at me, sniping at me, dragging my name through the mud, I just said screw it. If I have to parse what I am typing in such a way that I thinking about protecting myself from attacks by others, it's not worth it. Given I didn't like the 4e product, it made quitting a lot easier (though the camaraderie was always nice).
-I'll admit, having quit D&D around that time, news of a new edition, and possible support for the incarnation of the Forgotten Realms that I liked once upon a time is piquing my interest and seemingly slowly dragging me back into the fold.
-But, anyway, I am vaguely recalling talking about Umberlee (or some other water deity) and a connection to the Yuir, now that we're talking about it. Something about Unapproachable East, or a different source talking about some kind of flood story that was known in the region, and Umberlee (or whoever) possibly being involved in some way, based on whatever brainstorming we were doing at the time. The actual .PDF file doesn't mention anything, so it was only musings and such. As it ever was, EoF was 80% canon, 20% fill-in-the-cracks; given that it was written in the first-person, I generally added "It was believed", "It is possible", and so on for speculatory information. Those Snow Elf and Rockseer Elf articles are still among my favorites. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 17 Feb 2012 16:03:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 02:50:26
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Thanks - that means a lot.
And welcome home - many 'old timers' have been coming out of the woodwork. Presumably, this edition is going to be built for us (the fans). I'm looking forward to seeing what they bring to the table. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 03:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks - that means a lot.
And welcome home - many 'old timers' have been coming out of the woodwork. Presumably, this edition is going to be built for us (the fans). I'm looking forward to seeing what they bring to the table.
As am I... I have a framework for what I'd like to see them do with the new edition, but this isn't the scroll for it. If I can manage to articulate my detailed thoughts, I'll add them to the relevant scroll here. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Thought experiment - the mega-Seldarine
