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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 05:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I said, though, I'd not make him the most powerful wizard around... I think it'd be more interesting to have him dramatically lessened in power, but to still have those "flashes" of his old strength and skill. I'd still have him be quite powerful, but not so powerful that he could ignore any threats or swat down Shade.
I'd also expect that a reconstituted Karsus would have all kinds of divine eyes on him. A kind of divine surveillance, so to speak, much like the monitoring of convicted criminals who have served their sentence and have then been freed from prison in the real world -- working to prevent Karsus from... ... "re-offending."
Which kind of works into what Wooly suggested next:-
quote:
And I think I'd have him operating under an assumed identity. If he openly came back as himself, it'd be like the position of Magister was, or how Shandril was treated in Spellfire: apt to be attacked at any instant by a score or two of opportunistic mages.
An assumed or second identity would also help to ensure the protection of surrounding communities as well. And I would suspect that only those "who-need-to-know" of his real identity would know the truth of his assumed profile. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 05:13:19
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over misty mountains cold... dungeons deep and caverns old.....
ummm I hope they dont have a core world as I'm sure their will be arguments for Eberrron saying that its in the core books so it must be in Eberron.
no core campaign please or it will be how do we put the RAven Queem in the fr all over again |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 18:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
then we can get speciality priests based on portfolios, NOT the gods themselves. Tell us what a priest of war god gets, or the priest of a thief god, or Sun god. We can apply those templates to FR's gods, or any others.
Ooo. Somebody! Take some notes. Drug the management's coffee, and put this in. 
I like the idea of clerics oriented to a portfolio, with fluffish variations for overlapping deities. This is consistent, but also has flavor.
Then you'll be happy to hear they beat you to it... :) Here is a quote from a 5e design seminar at DDXP last month, from Rob Schwalb (one of the three lead 5e designers) discussing that are looking at splitting the cleric and priest as separate core classes:
quote:
...so you might break the cleric into two things:
The cleric is the cleric, who is in the very first edition; you can worship whatever god you want to worship, but it doesnt really flavor your character so much. The cleric is a guy who wears armor, carries a shield, heals your allies, and beats the crap out of people with a mace.
But the [specialty] priest, he is associated very closely with your god. So you might get a domain, and that domain may give you abilities as you gain levels, so you might become more and more like your domain.
So this lets us keep the cleric very defined, just a classical role, and let the priests be super versatile and be whatever it needs to be, based on what kind of gods are present in your campaign.
I'm super stoked about that, because specialty priests have always been one of my favorite niches. It also relates to an earlier comment in the thread - is there really a reason to mechanically differentiate between a human thief god, a dwarf thief god, an elven thief god, a halfling thief god, etc etc? I think there is certainly room to have all those racial variations on a theme, but mechanically, assigning Mask/Vergadain/Erevan/Garl/Brandobaris/etc overlapping domains makes a lot of sense.
I think the earlier lists covers the OP pretty thoroughly, I don't have much to add there. I thought the 4e FRPG handled the deities ok, from the perspective of "here's the details on some important deities, and a table with the important points for a bunch of others". Granted, the write-ups were on the Greater Gods, and were more for world-setting (fluff) than practical adventuring (like Erik is getting at). But the format was ok. I thought the distinction between good/neutral gods in the player book and evil gods in the DM book (campaign guide) was ok. The core assumption is that PCs are good, and I'm fine with highlighting that. If you want to expand outwards to include evil PCs, well, that's where the modularity of 5e will come into play.
In addition to Erik's idea of roughing-in some of the important adventuring deities, you could then add a 2-page spread ala 3e that tables out the other deities, which would be covered more thoroughly in a F&A/DD splat. This would provide some basic information for the newbie, along with showcasing the breadth of the FR pantheon for them, while giving the oldguard just enough mechanics to immediately jump in with their priest characters (domains, favored weapons, etc). The gaps can be filled in with either new 5e splats or just digitally re-releasing the previous edition books.
Another idea regarding the racial deities is to just list them in the race write-up. Under dwarves, for example, you have sections on culture, appearance, names, etc, just add a paragraph for religion. "Dwarves typically don't worship human deities, but rather have very close ties to their own pantheon, which consists of Moradin, Berronar, Clangeddin, Dugmaren, etc." The player would then reference the deity table, which lists each of these with their associated domains, symbols, weapons. So you could say (as a self-serving example,) "ok, my character is a travelling dwarf scholar, lets see which deity best fits that... Ah! Dugmaren has the Knowledge domain, here we go..." and bam shazam I have the mechanics I need to make my Dugmarite priest. Again, fluff could be found elsewhere as needed.
My thoughts, at least. |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
Edited by - Rils on 17 Feb 2012 18:11:30 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 19:54:09
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| I hope FR isn't core. Then everything will get shoehorned into Faerun. It's bad. I don't wish that fate on Eberron, either. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 20:57:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
Then you'll be happy to hear they beat you to it... :)
Nice bit of time-travel someone did there. Jolly good. 
I also really liked the specialty priest idea, and I've been planning to bring them into my games. It's nice to see that I might not have to do the writeups/conversions/whatever myself!
Not so sure about making the priest and cleric separate classes... seems like a cleric could just get some sort of template to become a specialty priest, but whatever works with the rules they're putting together is fine with me. I agree that if the cleric is supposed to be a healbot with heavy armor and a mace, then a specialty priest of Lliira might be a very different sort of creature.
This reminds me of something mentioned long ago (probably on the FR mailing list) which I immediately jumped on for my Mulhorandi god-kings, but I can't remember the details of the post now. It was something about making a unique combination of visual/oral/whatever elements of spellcasting for the priests of each deity, which I either interpreted or expanded to apply to healing thusly:
- a healing spell from a priest of Milil is obviously sung, and the recipient feels the same sort of "lift" that listeners get at a performance when the singer hits the crescendo, whereas
- a healing spell from a priest of Lathander might be intoned like a Gregorian chant and the recipient feels the warmth of the midmorning sun spreading from the wounds, while
- the recipient of Grumbar's healing might smell freshly turned earth, and the entire body might briefly turn dark and stony, and
- the "healing" of Loviatar feels like the million pinpricks when your foot "falls asleep" and
- that of Talona burns like acid even though it heals rather than harms.
And obviously it should cover more than just healing, but healing is one function which unites all clerics. Anyway, if this hasn't been done already here on Candlekeep, it deserves its own thread. I think it's the sort of thing that could add a great deal to role-playing flavor. Priests of some deities who are attempting to disguise their devotion, like priests of Bane pretending to be devoted to Mystra (an age-old ploy no doubt), would be reluctant to cast healing spells on anyone other than himself -- not just because why would Bane want to heal non-Banites, but also because their true god's dark essence would potentially be revealed in both the casting and the effect. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 21:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only problem is, where do we draw the line of the 'long list'?
I don't think there is a need to draw the line if the list in itslef is not published... I think your comment below provides IMO a solution that I would go for...
quote:
I'd much prefer a regional approach to gods - its something that hasn't been done before.
IMO some of the human pantheon has come unfortunately to dominate almost all of Faerun by now - and by consolidation this could only get worse and rob the Realms of its cultural diversity. In the real world (e.g. roman era) it was common for 'interloper' gods to become embedded in a local pantheon but that was very much linked to the military occupation of Rome and their practice of assigning legions all over the place and often far from their homeland. FR has much less of this 'permanent presence' and most of the faiths are not of the missionary type (something more typical more a monotheistic faith). The regional pantheons that once upon a time were more common to the Realms gave it a unique flavor and I would love to see this regionality come back in some form or other. e.g. its fine if Mask is the god of thieves in the North, but in Calimshan, or Mulhorand I would prefer that deity to be another entity (and not only a different name for the same deity, but since this has canon presedence its better than nothing).
To get back to the OP's question. I do like the idea of having a 'short list' in the Campaign guide, certainly if that guide focuses on a few regions only (like the OGB) with the corresponding regional deity package. Subsequent products - on-line or in print - could then contain and detail region pantheons along with other elements on the regions. i.e. I could imagine a LOI-style products that include the pantheon of deities worshipped in the regions along with all other relevant detail per region. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 22:32:35
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What about the common 'across the board' group of deities that most adventurers favor, a racial deity for each as appropriate, and if a region's primary deity isn't covered by one of those two categories, adding the deity that primarily covers that region?
Good Hunting! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 22:44:49
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I'm in favor of a list, in the sense that the 3e campaign setting gave us a list, but I agree with Mumadar's other points. Especially re far-ranging Faerunian deities dominating areas that have/had underlying local pantheons, and the value in preserving those local beliefs. I also like the idea of subsets of the deities being discussed in each regional sourcebook.
Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but an overview of what I personally would love to see:
- Player's book: a short-list of deities who are great choices of patron powers for adventurers... not necessarily greater powers, not necessarily widely venerated among non-adventurers. I still like Erik's most recent list, plus Shaundakul and gnomes, with Mask being CN.
- DM's book: a 1-line-per-deity summary of all Faerun-wide deities, including alignment and portfolio, which essentially serves as a table of contents for the descriptions which follow: a couple paragraphs about what each deity strives for in the course of his/her/its involvement in the Realms. The header of each description includes the deity's domains and favored weapon, rather than putting those things on the "table of contents" list. If the list can be kept down to name/alignment/portfolio then we should be able to fit it in 8 horizontal inches instead of each line of the list going across two pages. Also, gods which are only worshiped in a small area don't really belong here; they'll be described in regional sourcebooks.
- Deities & Demigods: I like this title better than F&P, F&A, or the others, but that's just my preference. This book would be different than the earlier Deities & Demigods book too, so a completely new title is probably an even better idea. This book contains all of the deities which were summarized in the DM's book... in greater detail. It should be aimed squarely at players-of-priests and DMs who want to take full advantage of the specialty priest ideas. This book spells out things like sayings and proverbs of the faiths, spells or granted powers which are only given to specialty priests, and maybe a "Top Ten Temples" section to showcase where each faith is strongest, the most influential high priests, etc.
- Regional sourcebooks: a quick list of which deities are especially active and/or favored in that region, and some expansion of the DM's book material aimed at how those deities are venerated in this specific region. Differences in attire, rituals, mannerisms, interactions with the other local faiths and nonbelievers, etc. This is also where we find the local deities (which are not venerated all over the Realms and therefore don't belong in the DM's book). No repetition, just some regional flavor.
This gives us options, as players and DMs. It's modular.
It also doesn't take up the entire DM's book with deities. The DM's book descriptions of the deities need only include the basic information that is always true for that faith... variations can be put in the regional sourcebooks. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 17 Feb 2012 22:49:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 10:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
...However, having learned from his mistake, he wouldn't do it again. He can target another deity, but chooses instead to focus his strength in reconstructing Halruaa 2.0.
-Why would I do that? Especially if reunited with Karsus the Mad and our third Beholder Mage aspect?
Because he's learned his lessons and realized there's more to magic, to being a genius, and to being incredibly powerful than aimless "playing with fire." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 04:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
...However, having learned from his mistake, he wouldn't do it again. He can target another deity, but chooses instead to focus his strength in reconstructing Halruaa 2.0.
-Why would I do that? Especially if reunited with Karsus the Mad and our third Beholder Mage aspect?
Because he's learned his lessons and realized there's more to magic, to being a genius, and to being incredibly powerful than aimless "playing with fire."
[/quote]
-Nope. If left to my own devices, I seek to one-up anybody and everybody. Applies to everything I do, really: Magic, school, fantasy baseball, video games... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 21:29:35
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| Tiamat and Bahamut in some form |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 21:35:25
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oops, just re-read the question (thought it was along the lines of deities you definitely wanted in 5th ed FR)
but IMO we do need to include the Tiamat and Bahamut rivalry, even if it is just in the "monstrous" deities style
i'm a huge fan of "the more the merrier" so sign me up with the list from 3e |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 22:19:01
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Having read through the posts here, I'm still stuck with a fundamental problem that has plagued me since the beginning of my D&D adventures in the first edition of the Realms. If the deities are transcendental of mortals, why do deities need alignments? I understand that it makes good storytelling as to how Midnight became the second deity called Mystra, and those novels show her (to me) moving toward a definitive neutral stance. My point in this is that I don't think deities should have alignments or prefer alignments. Deities promote domains, or spheres, or subject areas, or whatever you call it. Yes, they can cross, so that Eldath and Chauntea can have similar qualities, but they are not the same. Similarly, Malar could tie in with those deities as well.
This is more of Ed's "people worship multiple deities" piece he's spoken of repeatedly. So, this being the case, why wouldn't we just have Tyr be the God of Justice, Mask be the God of Thieves, Mystra be the Goddess of Magic, Gond be the God of Craftsmen, et cetera. The purpose of the deity in question is to further his or her domain, so whether someone is stealing for the benefit of the poor (e.g. Robin Hood) or selfishly, it still benefits Mask. Mask shouldn't care of the motives of theivery, only that it is fostered. Similarly, Mystra should focus on the advancement of magic, be it for war or peace, raising the dead or slaying the undead. A chaotic wild mage who invents new spells should be just as precious to her as a neutral good priest who teaches others how to cast divine magic. In this respect, all deities worshippers who greatly spread his or her sphere of influence would be "chosen." Based on this, my list would be:
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Fighters: Tempus-
Mages: Mystra-
Thieves: Mask - Clerics: Any
- Rangers: Sylvanus
- Commoners: Chauntea, Talos, Ilmater, Lathander, Tymora, Kelemvor
- Sailors: Umberless, Talos
- Bards: Milil
- Lore: Oghma
Again, an adventuring group who needs to travel by sea would be wise to offer a prayer to Umberlee and Talos, and maybe Istishia. But similarly, even a thief worshipping Mask should offer a prayer to Sylvanus, Mielikki, or Malar for a good hunt if hunting food for dinner. I would explain the commoner deities in that Chauntea is for food, Talos is for good weather, Lathander is for health and longevity, Tymora is for luck (when needed badly), Ilmater is to help those who are sick, and Kelemvor is to revere the dead. Sure, Barbarians will want to worship Uthgar, and Paladins may want Torm, but this isn't a requirement if we don't require LG deities. I'd rather have a game in which "Robin Hood" was a Paladin of Mask, because he was virtuous but his actions weren't always in compliance with the law. Mask doesn't care, because he gets credit for theivery. Torm doesn't care, because he like the virtue. Helm would like the obligation to duty. Tyr would be upset at law-breaking, and he should be upset at the breaking of any law, regardless of how "moral" society at large views it. If you live in Zhentil Keep, the laws are not as nice as in Suzail. It is not Tyr's place to determine if laws are just, only that they are followed and that they are applied fairly. I would expect punishment from the Church of Tyr on a judge accepting bribes whether that judge was in Waterdeep or in Marsember.
This kind of brings me to my final point: the deities that always seemed excessive to me. Rather than having a goddess of ill-luck (Beshaba) it would make more sense to me to be out of favor with Tymora. Similarly, Talona isn't necessary if it means being out of favor with Ilmater. Cyric is just crazy, and I liked Bhaal better, but let Tymora and Cyric fight it out over an assasin whose blade will land or miss. The sub-classes (rangers, paladins, assasins, barbarians, monks, et cetera) should be covered in the F&P expansion with respect to deity. A Monk can worship Tempus or not, depending on her training. Finally, as the deities are all supernatural, do we really need different names for them in the FRCG for characters of non-human races? If the demihuman deities are all just "aspects" of major deities, let them worship the main deities. If alignment is removed, then this is not a factor. Torm can manifest as a burly man or woman human to humans, and an adept warrior of the forest to a male or female elf. That they seek battle is all that matters, and on that they should be rewarded. Breaking down the pantheon into species-specific profiles furthers the separation of characters when not needed.
I'm less concerns with specific deities, as long as the major powers are represented in the FRCG and cover the areas in which most players will specialize, or need to understand why said deities are worshipped so greatly in the land. "Why is there a temple to Tymora on every corner?"
Cheers,
Selūne and Shar are unique, but while Shar seems to embody evil, Selūne has never struck me as oppositionally good.
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
Edited by - Azuth on 21 Feb 2012 01:58:45 |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 22:23:06
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| I want Myrkul back !!! |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 15:33:01
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I think that my list of "Adventurer" Deities would be:-
Azuth
Corellon Larethian
Eilistraee
Garl Glittergold
Helm
Ilmater
Lathander
Mask (Who should be TN)
Mielikki
Milil
Moradin
Mystra (Who should be TN as well)
Oghma
Selune
Shaundakul
Silvanus
Talos (Who, along with Auril & Umberlee, should be CN nature deities IMHO)
Tempus
Tymora
Tyr
These 21 Deities would give PC's a good choice, without including Evil Deities (Who should be listed in the "Running the Realms" volume. |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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5e FR Deities: What's your list?
