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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 22:45:45
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Some of the ethinicities have fairly clearly established histories and plausible deriviations. Others are more mysterious.
The Shaarans, for example, look somewhat like an artist's conception of stereotypical Native Americans, have names that appear derived from Nilotic languages and speak a language that is not related to any other Faerunian language. They started to roam the Shaar about six millenia before the raising of the Standing Stone and the canon sources are silent on where they came from.
My theory is that they were originally related to the Taangans of the Hordelands. The population that made it to the Shaar were among those defeated by the Imaskari and enslaved. I imagine that at least some of them were employed as herders in Nemrut, from which the path to the Shaar is wide open.
Remember, at that time, the Mulan have not yet been brought to Imaskar, so their sources of slaves are in the north and trinkle downwards. The southern lands of Durpar and Ulgarth appear to have been powerful enough to resist military conquest and direct enslavement (see the Gates of Iron), but not powerful enough to resist becoming economically and culturally subject to Imaskar. On the other hand, the influence was not all one sided, with Solon, the capital of Lower Imaskar, at some point becoming the northernmost bastion of Devic culture*. Likely enough, it was at this time that Lower Imaskar took up use of elephants, learnt from their subjects in Ulgarth and the Utter East.
Returning to our hapless slaves, burning for freedom, we find that some time after their capture, probably at around the time of the peasant uprising in Raudor, a group of these proto-Taangans rose against their masters and struck out to the west, coming across a great grass sea with marvellous horses that fit their every need. We neatly account for why Shaarans look vaguely Native American (because stereotypical Native Americans look vaguely Mongolian, i.e. Taangan).
Over the seven millenia since then, their language would have evolved out of all recognition from the Taangan ones, of course, so that's no problem. Not being written down, it would change very fast. In fact, it is very plausible that by the time that the proto-Taangans escaped at all, they no longer spoke their original languages, but instead only knew a bastardised version of Imaskari. It is easy to imagine them dropping that hated language in favour of the language of the first friendly culture that they came across.
But why does it sound vaguely African, at least in the names?
Well, now we come to some fancy explaining. Since the Days of Thunder, tribes of humans with black skin would have spread over the Chultan peninsula (at the time attached to a larger continent, Toril's Africa analogue) and into the lands that later became Tashalar, Lapaliya and further. It is even plausible that just as with Earth, all humans came from there and had already spread pretty much everywhere long before the Tearfall and Sundering. Of course, some became slaves to Creator races, others became food for them.
Ignoring the first, second and a lot of other waves of this diaspora, let's focus on those of the post-Sundering era. In that time, there were on the Chultan peninsula some tribes that resemble East African ones. We don't know what the Tashalan and Lapal tribes were like before their involvement with the Yuan-Ti, but they appear to have been lighter skinned. If there were Nilotic people anywhere, those are most likely to have been the Turami tribes, which appear to have been great travellers.
In any event, two millenia after our era, Turami tribes are found west of the Akanamere. They are said to have been driven ever westward by the Mulan (who, however, did not exist in Faerun at this time) and eventually ended up in Turmish. If we assume that at one point, the Turami lived all along the southern shore of the Inner Sea, we find that the escaping slaves would have passed through their lands.
The Turami seem to have favoured living close to the sea and not liked to go too far inland, while the proto-Taangans were nomadic herd people, so they did not intermarry much, but that does not preclude fairly extensive cultural mixture. The proto-Taangan brought the fruits of their hunting to the Turami and the Turami sold them fish, pearls and salt, among other things. This peaceful state of affairs would endure for four millenia, more than enough time for the proto-Taangans, now Shaarans, to have evolved languages hopelessly mixed with the Turami ones.**
*Which we shall examine in detail later. Suffice it to say that it may be one of the oldest human cultures and may have spread northward from the Malatran subcontinent, to Ulgarth before the Tearfall (which could have made the Yehimals much bigger, among a myriad of other changes).
**We are left with the problem of why the Turami names we see in the FRCS (but not in earlier publications, where they indeed were quasi-Nilotic in origin) are quasi-Spanish. Expect to see an explanation involving the nobles of that nation (but not the common folk) intermarrying and being culturally influenced by Tethens and Chondathans to a great extent, and then retaining an old naming fashion longer than the originating cultures.
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Feb 2012 22:51:34
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 23:26:36
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| This has been something I've always wondered about. It's always been so annoying to me that we know the details of the origins of most demihuman subraces, and yet the origins of most of the humans are shrouded in such mystery. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 23:36:50
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| IIRC correctly Markustay had a theory about a proton-Mediterranean race of interloper humans (I think he called them Dathites) who influenced and mixed with the Chondathans and Chessentans. Perhaps the Romance-sounding languages in Turmish could be from them? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 23:58:55
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The ancestors of RL Native American populations migrated eastwards across the Pacific from Africa and Asia. They share the same "archaic human" Homo sapiens idaltu ancestry of modern Africans and Asians (and pretty much everybody else) - although this is evident in their ethnic speciation and physical characteristics, the development of their languages and cultures followed entirely isolated paths. Linguistic and cultural drift occur very rapidly when compared against the slow pace of genetic differentiation. This is all further complicated by the inevitable crossbreeding of people, languages, and ideas at any point during the interim.
The development posited for the Shaarans of the Realms seems plausible enough to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 00:36:22
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| They migrated to the Americas from Siberia, rather far removed from Africa and having had thousands of years to change appearance. It wouldn't really make sense in the real world if you had a bunch of people who look like Native Americans in, say, Arabia without some sort of historical reason or migration. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 00:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
IIRC correctly Markustay had a theory about a proton-Mediterranean race of interloper humans (I think he called them Dathites) who influenced and mixed with the Chondathans and Chessentans. Perhaps the Romance-sounding languages in Turmish could be from them?
Theoretically. On the other hand, it is most plausible that the Romance-sounding names in Turmish are a recent development, given how much a millenia here and there will change things.
This argues against a simple thing like contact with proto-Romans six or seven thousand years ago.
On the other hand, Chondathan is hypothesised to be somewhat Romance-like, so these could be related to it. Allow me to think aloud.
In the Blade Kingdom there are very Renaissence Italian-esque names, both for people and places. Assuming we retain these as canonical, it is not necessarily out of the realms of possibility that out of the ruins of Jaamdath might have emerged a Romanesque Chondath, at around the period of the raising of the Standing Stone.
Of course, what we would recognise as Romanesque only held true in the areas around the Blade Kingdoms and Chessenta*. The further you went south in the Vilhon, the more and stranger influences you got. The influence of former Shoon-dominated Tethens, combined with Talfiric barbarians, would be calculated to change 'Romanesque' to 'Spanish-esque', judging by real world experience.
If Chondathan is represented for our purposes as a Romance language, it is therefore not at all unlikely that the version of it spoken around the Shining Plains and in Erlkazar is a bit Spanish-like, at least close enough for our purposes.
The Turamis are sailors and traders and therefore multilingual. Their original language, whatever it is**, would have had six thousand years to evolve from the time that it entered the Shaaran society. Moreover, during that time, the Turamis, at least a great number of them, would have become Untheri subjects and/or slaves. This, by the way, explains the origin of Akabar Bel Akash's (Azure Bonds) name, as it can easily derive from the proto-Semitic languages spoken in Unther (in fact, 'Bel' means 'King' in real world languages derived from Babylon and akbar is Semitic in origin as well).
So the Turami language would have become mixed with the Untheric and Chessentan ones in the two millenia from the founding of the Old Empires to the rebirth of Chondath from Jaamdath. While still seperate, it would perhaps not bear much resemblence to their original language, especially not if they could not read or write and did not have the traditions of the Council Hills and formal storytelling of the Shaarans to preserve their language in a pure form.
There might not have been a Turami language any more, with people of Turami ethinicity speaking one or more of a dozen languages. When they emigrated over the Vilhon Reach to their new homeland of Turmish, this could have been accompanied by the adoption of a unified language in this new land. It would not be surprising if such a language adopted a great deal from the surrounding areas, which, at the time, were Chondath-speaking and influenced at a distance by the Shoon and by much trade with the Tethens.
The new Turmish, then, while retaining some strange Untheric, Chessentan and (their-original-language)-what-became-Shaaran roots would then be far enough removed so that it could be said to be more related to Chondathan than any of these. On the other hand, the deliberate Turmish desire for independence from Chondath would prevent them from doing what the Tethens are said to have done*** and adopted Chondathan wholesale.
*By the way, that society is way too close to Ancient Greece not to have been founded by gated-in-equivalents, even though the source material does not say so. On the other hand, proto-Greek mercenaries were common in Ancient Egypt, even as early as during periods when they were contemporary with Babylon, so if the Imaskari got slaves from there, they'd have had Greeks as well. Supposing that, for whatever reason, the Imaskari allowed their Grecian subject more freedom than their Mulan ones (it is, for example, very likely that they were already seafarers and merchants at that time, which would have meant that if Imaskar wanted to sail the Inner Sea, they would have had to do so with Grecian crews), it is likely that more of them escaped and earlier than of the Mulan, during that period while Imaskar still stood and Jaamdath controlled what would become Chondath. In that case, Chessenta and some of the Wizard Reach is very likely to have been settled by those early escapees, at varying levels of civilisation.
**I'm fond of a Realms-analogue to Nilotic languages.
***I favour the 2e version where Thorass was still used in Amn, for example. I'm also thinking of making Calant a distinct language from Chondathan, albeit a related one. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 03:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
They migrated to the Americas from Siberia, rather far removed from Africa and having had thousands of years to change appearance. It wouldn't really make sense in the real world if you had a bunch of people who look like Native Americans in, say, Arabia without some sort of historical reason or migration.
Just so.
Which is why it is interesting to delve into these historical migrations in a fantasy setting.
Also, I can't stand not having a clear idea how people in a fantasy setting are supposed to look. The only thing worse than having no clear physical description or pictures is having artwork that doesn't match descriptions or description which changes between editions. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 04:17:51
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| I hate that too. Also how it's really hard to describe how ethnicities look in their faces, so unity of depiction in the artwork is very necessary. Like, what do Chondathans look like? White people? That's too vague. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 08:07:34
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Purely out of interest, can anyone explain to me why 18% of the population of Estagund and 3% of the population of Var the Golden is composed of Illuskans?
Is this perhaps meant to read Arkuins, a population of transplanted Nar with some slight admixture of Illuskan blood, both courtesy of a Gate in the Council Hills?
After that, I'll have to figure out why both Shining South and Races of Faerun persist in calling the Durpari 'dark-skinned' (SS actually says 'ebony'), when pictures of them mostly show them as dusky, at most. For that matter, how the Imaskari can have been a tribe of Durpari, but looked absolutely nothing like the description of a typical Durpari, being on average five inches taller and several shades paler.
I'd favour making Durpari a cultural designator, encompassing several very different ethnic tribes, ranging from the proto-Imaskari* who had white skin and 'Aryan' features (and clearly contributed some genetic material to the man pictured as Durpari in the SS) through all shades of dusky (aided by Zakharans dhows having traded extensively with the tribes and the merchant intermarrying freely) to the shade of brown possessed by some of the Mar down in the Utter East and even to a quite black black.
The unifying Adama faith and similar cultures ensured that these ethnicities have mixed fairly freely in geographic distribution, although some tribes remain stubbornly resistant to exogamy.
This allows for a unified Durpari culture, while an enterprising GM may also insert more insular pockets of less assimilated tribes if a traveller leaves the cosmopolitan cities.
Of course, names and titles provide numerous hints of a relationship between the Mar, Ulgarth and the Durpari, a relationship that extends, culturally at least, up to Solon (but no further north). These are the Indian-esque titles and names.
It is untidy and difficult to explain the presence of Ulgarth in the middle of the otherwise logical range of 'Indian-esque' culture reaching a finger north into Faerun from across the Yehimals from the Sempadan and beyound. After all, it uses all those 'European-esque' titles, like King and Baron!
As for that, we must remember that early 2e edition publications often presented only the Common language titles of foreign rulers. The ruler of Ulgarth is certainly a King. It is just that in his own language, it is rendered Rajah. The Barons are in the local language Thakur**. By the same token, the knights of that land call themselves in their own language kshatriya.
*I believe that those came from the same population that later contributed the Kalmyk to the region, being simply an earlier (and less warlike, considering that the Hordelands at the time were much less crowded) wave of their southwest progress.
**As opposed to the nobles of the post-Imaskari Solon state and of Thommar, who called themselves 'Zimindar'. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 10 Feb 2012 08:15:15 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 13:27:47
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| In my Realms the Imaskari were similar to the proto-Indoeuropeans, just one southern group then invaded Durpar. And people of the Shaar were another branch, kinda like the Scythians. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 13:48:27
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| For some reason I have always been drawn to the geographical area known as the Shaar. Sadly there isn't much written about this area of Faerun. If memory serves, isn't it nearly the same size as Anauroch? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 13:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Some of the ethinicities have fairly clearly established histories and plausible deriviations. Others are more mysterious.
The Shaarans, for example, look somewhat like an artist's conception of stereotypical Native Americans, have names that appear derived from Nilotic languages and speak a language that is not related to any other Faerunian language. They started to roam the Shaar about six millenia before the raising of the Standing Stone and the canon sources are silent on where they came from.
My theory is that they were originally related to the Taangans of the Hordelands. The population that made it to the Shaar were among those defeated by the Imaskari and enslaved. I imagine that at least some of them were employed as herders in Nemrut, from which the path to the Shaar is wide open.
Remember, at that time, the Mulan have not yet been brought to Imaskar, so their sources of slaves are in the north and trinkle downwards. The southern lands of Durpar and Ulgarth appear to have been powerful enough to resist military conquest and direct enslavement (see the Gates of Iron), but not powerful enough to resist becoming economically and culturally subject to Imaskar. On the other hand, the influence was not all one sided, with Solon, the capital of Lower Imaskar, at some point becoming the northernmost bastion of Devic culture*. Likely enough, it was at this time that Lower Imaskar took up use of elephants, learnt from their subjects in Ulgarth and the Utter East.
Returning to our hapless slaves, burning for freedom, we find that some time after their capture, probably at around the time of the peasant uprising in Raudor, a group of these proto-Taangans rose against their masters and struck out to the west, coming across a great grass sea with marvellous horses that fit their every need. We neatly account for why Shaarans look vaguely Native American (because stereotypical Native Americans look vaguely Mongolian, i.e. Taangan).
Over the seven millenia since then, their language would have evolved out of all recognition from the Taangan ones, of course, so that's no problem. Not being written down, it would change very fast. In fact, it is very plausible that by the time that the proto-Taangans escaped at all, they no longer spoke their original languages, but instead only knew a bastardised version of Imaskari. It is easy to imagine them dropping that hated language in favour of the language of the first friendly culture that they came across.
But why does it sound vaguely African, at least in the names?
Well, now we come to some fancy explaining. Since the Days of Thunder, tribes of humans with black skin would have spread over the Chultan peninsula (at the time attached to a larger continent, Toril's Africa analogue) and into the lands that later became Tashalar, Lapaliya and further. It is even plausible that just as with Earth, all humans came from there and had already spread pretty much everywhere long before the Tearfall and Sundering. Of course, some became slaves to Creator races, others became food for them.
Ignoring the first, second and a lot of other waves of this diaspora, let's focus on those of the post-Sundering era. In that time, there were on the Chultan peninsula some tribes that resemble East African ones. We don't know what the Tashalan and Lapal tribes were like before their involvement with the Yuan-Ti, but they appear to have been lighter skinned. If there were Nilotic people anywhere, those are most likely to have been the Turami tribes, which appear to have been great travellers.
In any event, two millenia after our era, Turami tribes are found west of the Akanamere. They are said to have been driven ever westward by the Mulan (who, however, did not exist in Faerun at this time) and eventually ended up in Turmish. If we assume that at one point, the Turami lived all along the southern shore of the Inner Sea, we find that the escaping slaves would have passed through their lands.
The Turami seem to have favoured living close to the sea and not liked to go too far inland, while the proto-Taangans were nomadic herd people, so they did not intermarry much, but that does not preclude fairly extensive cultural mixture. The proto-Taangan brought the fruits of their hunting to the Turami and the Turami sold them fish, pearls and salt, among other things. This peaceful state of affairs would endure for four millenia, more than enough time for the proto-Taangans, now Shaarans, to have evolved languages hopelessly mixed with the Turami ones.**
*Which we shall examine in detail later. Suffice it to say that it may be one of the oldest human cultures and may have spread northward from the Malatran subcontinent, to Ulgarth before the Tearfall (which could have made the Yehimals much bigger, among a myriad of other changes).
**We are left with the problem of why the Turami names we see in the FRCS (but not in earlier publications, where they indeed were quasi-Nilotic in origin) are quasi-Spanish. Expect to see an explanation involving the nobles of that nation (but not the common folk) intermarrying and being culturally influenced by Tethens and Chondathans to a great extent, and then retaining an old naming fashion longer than the originating cultures.
Icelander- you should be our resident Realms Archeologist  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 14:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
IIRC correctly Markustay had a theory about a proton-Mediterranean race of interloper humans (I think he called them Dathites) who influenced and mixed with the Chondathans and Chessentans. Perhaps the Romance-sounding languages in Turmish could be from them?
Correct
There are bits of Roman/Greek culture sprinkled into parts of FR, which had to come from somewhere, and there is an errant entry regarding them (and others) in one of the 'god books' (about various groups who have emigrated to Toril.)
Hence my theory that well before the Imaskari captured and enslaved the Mulan, they had experimented with other Meditteranean peoples, which ended badly. They had set-up a colony on Earth and captured large groups of warlike peoples from the early citystates of Greece, to use as soldiers in their armies. Unfortunately, they were better at fighting then the Imaskari had anticipated. After several Earth-gods destroyed their colony completely (Pompeii and/or Atlantis - take your pick) and provided their Toril-bound priests with powerful magic, the slaves rebelled. After killing hundreds of Imaskari overseers, they then fled along the southern shores of the Inner Sea, driving the peaceful Turami ahead of them. These people later became known as the Dathites, and they had brought several of their gods to Toril with them. Faerunian Sages often make the mistake of lumping this group into the later ones, and refer to them as 'Mulan' as well.
The Imaskari learned their lesson, and many centuries later when they decided to capture slaves again, they built the Godwall to stop deities from interferring with their activities.
The Dathites spread out, becoming the Jhaamdathans, Chondathans, Chessentans (a group captured from the warring tribes of Italy), and Tethyrians.
I also have the theoretical Cortai peoples - a very primitive hunter-gathering people that existed during the days of thunder (think 'Clovis People'). After the Tearfall (meteor strike) that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, this group split into western and eastern branches - the Talfir-Cortai, and the Issa-Cortae (which still survives in northern Kara-Tur to this day).
The Talfir-Cortai later mixed-with and sub-divided into several groups (the Tethyrians being of Cortai/Dathite derivation).
If I add-in Icelander's conjecture, at a much later time the southern remnant of the Cortai people mixed with (or simply absorbed) the westward migrating Taangan peoples - this would have occurred very late in the period of Imperial Imaskar, after the arrival of the Shou interlopers (who subjugated the aboriginal Haltai* people).
The basic premise here is that despite their incredible magical might, the Imaskari simply were not a very warlike people themselves, and weren't all that good at it, which is why they always used others to do their conquering for them.
The Turami people were the original, prehistoric (pre-sundering) group that existed all throughout the southern portion of Merrourboros (proto-continent), who were displaced (and whatever civilization they attained destroyed) by the Sundering itself. The Sundering caused an Ice-Age (the poles were re-aligned), and all the Creator races were driven to near-extinction, including one - possibly two - human civilizations in the far north. Most of the original Turami culture can be found in the Chultan peoples, including far Katashaka. The modern Turmish are of Turami stock, but with a small admixture of both Dathite and Cortae. The people of the Chultan Peninsula are of mostly Turami stock with some Mujhari (who settled in Calimshan). The people of Maztica are of Turami stock, but with various bits of other groups mixed-in over millenia (skin-tones getting 'lighter' as one travels north from Lopango to Anchorome). I theorize another group - subjugated by Imaskar - having survived in Thazalhar (who were later wiped-out during the Orcgate Wars).
A LOT of conjecture, based on some small canon here and there - I tried my best to create a cohesive 'human migrations patterns' map a long time ago, and filled-in all the gaps with plenty of homebrew (based as much as I could on current Torillian groups), and without using magic as an excuse as much as possible (the Mujhari Calishites are canon - they came from 'elsewhere', and the assumption is that they were chased out of Calimshan when the genie kingdoms fell).
Connecting the Mujhari in the Golden waters region to Zakhara was simple enough, but made a bit harder by the fact that the Utter east seems to have an indigenous 'Indianesque' culture - the Mar. In the Utter East thread, we made the assumption that that parcel of land was settled during 'The Scattering' by Zakharan people, and they were later displaced (further north) by migrating Mar (fleeing fallen Tempat Larang from the east). Brian James ran with some of this, and furthered our connection (between Zakhara and the UE) with the canon entry in the GHotR, pg.95.
*'Haltai' being the aboriginal oriental-like people of Kara-Tur. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2012 15:26:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 15:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my Realms the Imaskari were similar to the proto-Indoeuropeans, just one southern group then invaded Durpar. And people of the Shaar were another branch, kinda like the Scythians.
I like what I'm reading here, Quale. Can you elaborate on this? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 16:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my Realms the Imaskari were similar to the proto-Indoeuropeans, just one southern group then invaded Durpar. And people of the Shaar were another branch, kinda like the Scythians.
This is very similar to mine.
I'm positing the Imaskari as Indo-European, with the real-world inspiration for them being the (doubtful, but fun) Kurgan hypothesis and the later Scythians.
In Markustay's Cortae-theory, they would be an errant population of Talfir-Cortae caught on the 'wrong' continent by the Sundering and having made their way from the far northern Kara-Tur southward, disdaining to fight the warlike proto-Taangan for living space, but making their way eventually down to the Golden Water (hugging the western side of the Katakoro Shan), where they found Durpari tribes already. I'm pretty sure that they found their way much easier due to their already solid grasp of travelling magic.
When dark influences from Devic cultures started changing the peaceful Durpari society (into which they had started happily assimilating), they picked up again, this time striking out due north, at the western end of the Dustwall. From there, according to the Grand History of the Realms, they found the empty lands that they made Imaskar. While they grew no more warlike in the centuries of peaceful and rich acriculture there, they learned magic enough to turn warlike people into slaves and subjects.
After the fall of Imaskar, one remnant of them would have mixed with slave races become Semphari, explaining why the Semphari are 'Persian' and not 'Arabic' like their neighbouring Murghomi* (or Turkic, like the steppe-dwellers). The possibility of a hidden valley (Kafiristan/Nuristan) with blue or green eyed people, an archaic and ritualistic culture (and truly ancient magics) is left up to the GM, of course.
One difference is that the Shaarans are definitely not Indo-European analogues. However, that is easily solved by making them a proto-Taangan tribe.
*As noted earlier, I favour the Mujhein having arrived in Semphar and Murghom after the fall of Imaskar. I'm leaning toward a sizable population of Zakharans being deposited in the Raurin by the Scattering of Fate, as evidenced by the remnants there in Desert of Desolation. Murghom became nearly purely Zakharan at first, but later mixed somewhat with the Mulhorandi, as well as picking up some ties with Unther while they still held a port on the Alamber (and were enemies of Mulhorand). Depopulated Semphar at first absorbed a great number of Zakharans, but eventually closed its borders to further immigration before both were conquered by Mulhorand, precipitating the start of bad blood between the nations. I'm assuming that both nations picked up the faith of the Adama** later, from Durpari preachers and prophets.
**The faith is properly called Adama, after its founder, but is often refered to simply as the Mujhari religion (chiefly by people who don't realise that it is the same religion as the Durpari profess***). The all-encompassing divine is sometimes refered to as Anu.
***In their defence, the faith is practised very differently, due to the heavy Zakharan cultural influences in Murghom and Semphar vs. the local culture of the Durpari. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 10 Feb 2012 16:47:26 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 17:19:59
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| I thought the European influences in Ulgarth were from migrating Ffolk who were described as conquering much of the Mar in the GHotFR. Not to mention very European languages are common as dirt on Toril. The very English TH sound is found in pretty much every language in the setting. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 17:21:58
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| I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 19:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I thought the European influences in Ulgarth were from migrating Ffolk who were described as conquering much of the Mar in the GHotFR. Not to mention very European languages are common as dirt on Toril. The very English TH sound is found in pretty much every language in the setting.
The problem with that is that the Ffolk do not have a tradition of knighthood and did not seem to worship gods like Torm, one of the most popular gods in modern Ulgarth.
In many ways, interpreting the Shining Seas text as describing actual Ulgarthian terms, instead of a translation of more Devic terms*, it seems that the influence at work in Ulgarth is specifically Tethyrian (another possibility would be Sespechian).
However, having a coincidental strange event, unconnected to the first, occur to explain Tethyrians and Ffolk coming to dominate the Ulgarthians and Mar....
It is not elegant.
On the other hand, supposing that Ulgarth and Mar originally had their own warlike aspects and that the knighthood and nobles are local, just called by Common names in the SS supplement. The warlike Mar mostly travelled north once they had been defeated by the Ffolk, resulting in a fairly docile, patient Mar and a martial Ulgarth.
The Devic culture of Mar had been corrupted by fiendish influences, according to Faces of Deception, and it is not unlikely that Ulgarth, being caught between Solon (at least potentially rather dark, at times) and the dark arts of the Mar, with their antediluvian horrors, responded by abandoning their Devic beliefs some time in the last several centuries. It would have been natural for them, at that time, to take up the beliefs of their neighbours, the Durpari, and worship the Adama.
On the other hand, fierce emnity makes people less willing to consider learning from neighbours. Happily, Durpar was starting to become a great trading nation at that time and Ulgarth, being a divinely 'neutral/empty' region acted as a honeypot for evangelical clergy. Priests serving gods that appealed to the warlike and honourable Ulgarthians met with success, those representing the darker powers were met with steel and stern faces.
In the process of being prozetalised to by every ambitious priest eager to enlarge the geographic sphere of his god, the Ulgarthians came to have a much better knowledge of Common than the inhabitants of Utter East, as well as learning to understand their ways better. They are still their own culture, but far more cosmopolitan than the Utter East.
Somewhat plausible?
*We must always strive to reconcile canon that seems contradictory. Shining South says that Ulgarthians speak Common while The Hordelands claims that they speak Devic. The least harmful to my suspension of disbelief is that what is meant is that Common is widely spoken and that the titles are given in their translated form in the supplement. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 10 Feb 2012 19:33:13 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 20:07:52
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| Yes. And I like this idea of the Utter East and the Golden Water area being so diverse within itself. It's not just a uniform Indianesque culture (something that doesn't even exist in the real world). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 20:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
Well, when two Lantanna love each other very much...  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 20:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
Well, when two Lantanna love each other very much...
Darn, someone beat me to it... |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 23:39:46
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| Well at least I didn't ask where half-orcs come from... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 00:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
I've actually got a pending theory on this myself. Let me dig around through my archives, first... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 00:20:29
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Well one thing I noticed is that the Lantanna are red haired and copper skinned. Another red haired group in the Realms is the Shou interlopers (pierced together by Markustay from hints in the descriptions of the provinces of Kara-Tur). The Shou came to Toril with the Lung Dragons. Lantanese uses the Draconic alphabet. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I would homebrew that the Lantannese (and maybe even the Gnomes) came from the same Oriental-themed world (especially considering their knack for invention, possibly reflecting coming from a world with a higher tech level).
Maybe they've mixed with proto-Tethyrians and proto-Ffolk (remember that the Ffolk are themselves the result of immigration from Tethyr mixing with unknown Moonshae natives), which is why they don't look so Asian anymore? |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 11 Feb 2012 00:22:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:12:28
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quote:
Icelander
Purely out of interest, can anyone explain to me why 18% of the population of Estagund and 3% of the population of Var the Golden is composed of Illuskans?
Is this perhaps meant to read Arkuins, a population of transplanted Nar with some slight admixture of Illuskan blood, both courtesy of a Gate in the Council Hills?
I don't have an answer for that - except to point out that when clearly differentiated ethnicities exist within a population it's usually because one or more of them was "recently" introduced. Given sufficient time (measured in generations), the cultural barriers which isolate the ethnicities begin to dissolve and the entire population assumes an homogenous identity which is a new ethnicity in itself. In RL such rapid ethnic injections are typically the result of war, changing political/religious boundaries, or natural distasters. In the Realms it might also be an artifact of magical designs, plus of course the Realms are interconnected with countless other D&D worlds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:22:49
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| Races of Faerun lists Illuskans as the majority of Dambrath, and as we all know that place is primarily inhabited by partially-Illuskan Arkaiuns, so any other Illuskans in the Shining South are probably meant to be Arkaiuns as well. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 04:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Yes. And I like this idea of the Utter East and the Golden Water area being so diverse within itself. It's not just a uniform Indianesque culture (something that doesn't even exist in the real world).
Very much true.
I've been trying to make sure that nothing I postulate is a fantasy counterpart of 'India', as that's a latter day political creation.
The Mar, in my mind, were originally fantastic analogues for the Marwari (the plains and rivers of Edenvale and Doegan) and Maratha (Koeningheim, Barbarian Marches), with these taking on elements from central India (Madhya Pradesh) and next to the Yehimals the southern part of the Uttar Pradesh. The Parsanic area could be compared to the Gujarat, but these consummate traders were already well mixed with the Durpari tribes by the of the Ffolk invasion and after it there was an even larger diaspora of them to the coastal, urban areas of the Shining Lands.
The Ulgarthians, in turn, for the Rajput/Rajastani, with the more inland areas resembling the former Kuru Kingdom around Dehli in the north and the northern part of Uttar Pradesh in the south. The Galuil Mountains and the hills around it resemble the Himachal Pradesh.
The Shining Lands for Punjab and Sindh, with the coastal areas having received an extensive wave of Gujarat and Marwari immigrants after the Ffolk invasion. It is also useful to imagine the Shining Lands are being analogues to societies of Indian traders who sprang up all through the Middle East and all the way to Zanzibar. In fact, with the Shaar above, the Durpari are not at all unlike Indian traders in Africa, in many ways.
As for the rest of Toril's echo of Pakistan, not to mention Afghanistan, these were located plumb in the middle of where the Imaskari disaster placed deserts and devastation. The remains of such people live to the north of former Thommar, along the western edge of the Katakoro Shan, but their range is much smaller than on Earth, because much of what would would be their lands is desert where Zakharan interlopers have set up their culture.
Thommar is not unlike Jammu and Kashmir. For the 'Indian-esque' flavour to Solon, see the historical ancient 'Indian-esque' Kingdoms in Central Asia.
All of these, however, have been affected by magic, different religion, different climate, different neighbours and different history so that they are today very much their own cultures, not simply transported real worl ones. The real world analogues are just handy sources for how the people look and feel, mutatis mutandis for influences which are not present in real life, such as the multinational trading for the Durpari coast.
I don't know whether there is canon support for the idea, but it would make a lot of sense for the Sempadan to be/have been Bengali. The Tearfall or Sundering might have destroyed most of that region, leaving only a fairly small population and no longer connected to the Malatran mainland.
The South Indian areas, Tamil, Kerala, etc., complete with Dravidian peoples, would then be found down in the south of Malatra. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 11 Feb 2012 04:44:12 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 08:52:36
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I was thinking about the language chart in the Hordelands and Tom Costa's article Speaking in Tongues, as well as the challenge of making it all play nice with the 'Indian-esque' elements of the Utter East an upwards.
I've come to the conclusion that Costa's work needs a little reordering.
First of all, Imaskar was founded almost ten millenia before the present era. That's longer than recorded history on Earth. The languages spoken at that time did not necessarily correspond much with those spoken on modern Toril.
In fact, on our world, we don't know much about languages spoken that far back. Serious linguists get away with postulating such ideas as proto-Indo-European, proto-Altaic and proto-Uralic all being related that far back.
As such, stating that at the time of Imaskar's founding, the Durpari tribes spoke a whole range of languages (most lost without a trace), including proto-Imaskari, is just sensible.
However, reviewing the origin of the Imaskari, it does not seem to me plausible that they came down from the Ama basin after the Sundering because they were unwilling to fight the more warlike tribes around them. Not, at any rate, without a lot of qualifications and such. The early Imaskari seem to have been warlike before they were magical.
Rather, the aborigines of the Ama basin spoke languages that have been lost today. They were the genetic predecessors of the Taangan, Ra-Khati, Bhutan and even the Tabotans, being driven west and south by the displacing Shou. Little or no trace of their languages survive.
On the other hand, it is possible that at the end of the ice age before the Dawn Ages, populations of them were caught over on the landmass that became Anchorhome, Maztica, etc., so some of the languages there might be descendants from those early aborigine languages. Or that landmass might have been empty of humans altogether until settled by humans from another Crystal Sphere. Both are possible.
Well, let's first trace genetics, then culture. Genetics changes much more slowly.
Excepting outer planar arrivals, I think that those Torilian people who look 'European-esque'* settled Faerun from the western side of the Katakoro Shan (and the fertile lands west of there), travelling north and west through the recently fallen Batrachi kingdoms after the Tearfall. They went west because the fall of the Batrachi left open fertile lands and they went north because of the gradual warming (or sudden, I don't know) at the end of the Ice Age in -37,000 DR.
Before the founding of Ostoria, they had settled around the Bay of Raum (the north-east population) and skirting the edges of the Jotunbrud territory, around the Moonsea (the central population). The founding of Ostoria drives a lot of them further west, where many of them become dragonic slaves and vassals (the north-west population). It is likely, but not certain, that at this time, the southern shores of the Inner Sea saw their native Turami and unnamed refugee tribes from the serpent-folk being joined by escaped slaves from the giants in the Vilhon Reach.**
This would depend rather heavily on what the giant's attitude toward humans was. If we assume that they had no use for them (thus killing them when they competed for living space), then Cormanthyr, Cormyr and the Dales would have been completely human free at this time, populated only by giants and dragons.
Before the coming of the elves, the north-west population would have been able to spread downward the Sword Coast pretty freely. Obviously, dragons ruled the roost, so the humans were either barbarians trying to avoid their notice or slaves under them, but from this population eventually came the Netherese, the Talfirs, the Ffolk and the Illuskans (assuming that this population is not purely extra-planar). Also, the human tribes of the Keltormir were of this stock.
Let's move on to the south a bit.
The Lapal and Tashalars were originally Katashakan tribes (as, indeed, all native Torilians were during the Blue Age before the Shadow Epoch), but must have diverged from their common ancestors long, long before the end of the Ice Age***. Most probably they were coastal people of northern Katahaka and what became Chult. At the time of the rise of the Sarrukh Mhairsaulk civilisation, they were already much lighter skinned than their more southerly cousins.
Why the Turami remained very dark skinned and the Lapal and Tashalans did not is somewhat of a mystery. Possibly the solution lies in deliberate breeding campaign by the Sarrukh. For some reason, olive skin and straight hair on their slaves pleased them, whereas ebony skin and curled hair did not.
The proto-Turami, in any event, probably represented the last wave of Katashakan migration before the severing of Katashaka from Chult.**** The great dragon kingdoms of the south most have discouraged many of them from striking out into the Shining South and I imagine that they found the Lake of Steam already settled by proto-Tashlutans who had fled the serpent people (and maybe found beholders no kinder masters). The Shaar was wide open, but I imagine that their culture did not relish a nomadic herding or hunting existence. The proto-Turami were, in my view, coastal hunter-gatherers, disdaining dry savannahs.
No doubt a fair bit of them settled around the Lake of Steam, but for one reason or another, the Sundering and time wiped out most of the remnants. And elves, probably, given that they settled there too. Probably massacred a lot of beholder-ruled humans, I don't doubt. Well, maybe a few dragon-ruled ones too.
Those proto-Turami that lived therefore gravitated ever further east and north, avoiding the elves. By the time of the Crown Wars, I imagine that they had settled all the southern shore of the Inner Sea.
I note that I didn't actually address what I meant to address. Well, there's always another post.
*Where did they originally come from? Well, a long time before the last Ice Age, Katashakan humans had already travelled west over what would become Mhairsaulk and settled those aresa of Merrobouros that were above water. As soon as the waters receded at the start of the Ice Age, the humans that had followed the highlands and mountains (then, of course, islands) for a laborous course to the Katakoro and further south had an opportunity to spread out to the new lands. During the Ice Age, they would have settled the whole tropics of Merrebouros. The Sempadan has probably known human habitation for more than 100,000 years and so might the jungles of Malatra. The furthest-travelling wave of these migrants now inhabits the southernmost tip of Malatra (and possibly made it across to Osse a long time ago). While the origins of Zakharan humans is disputed, the most mundane and plausible explanation is simply that at some point before the Tearfall, a population of them went there and after the Sundering and Tearfall, were mostly isolated. In any event, the dark-skinned Katashakans who made their home on the western part of the Katakoro Shan gradually became lighter skinned, even before the Ice Age, and during it they changed out of all recognition. These Katakoro men would become the ancestors of all the Western men, as well as the Devics of Ulgarth and the Utter East (though these diverged from each other 30,000 years ago).
**These would then have become the Jaamdath a long, long time after that. As in, some twenty thousand years later. On the other hand, the tribes that founded Jhaamdath might equally likely have been of Turami stock or from one of the olive-skinned tribes around the Lake of Steam that share original stock with the Tashalans. Is there a canon appearance for Jhaamdathans in the early days?
***As evidenced by their extremely different appearance from Tabaxi, Eshodow and even the Turami, who are far closer to the Tabaxi than they are.
****Did that happen at the Tearfall or the Sundering? Both are plausible. If any scholar knows, I would really appreciate it. In any event, if it was the Tearfall, the proto-Turami were able to pass Mhairsaulk due to the passing of the Sarrukh, but if it was the Sundering (much prefered), they fled the war between Mhairsaulk and the coatl. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 11 Feb 2012 09:40:08 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 11:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
I've also always wondered where the Lantanna come from?
According to the article about languages they are related to the Imaskari. It's possible that during their alliance with the le shay (Moonshaes) the Imaskari established a colony on Lantan.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my Realms the Imaskari were similar to the proto-Indoeuropeans, just one southern group then invaded Durpar. And people of the Shaar were another branch, kinda like the Scythians.
I like what I'm reading here, Quale. Can you elaborate on this?
There isn't much, it's just history that I imagined to be in the background, it included a lot of breaking of canon. In that world the Realms were a real parallel Earth, every human culture except the Netherese had a real world analogue, historical events on Earth had fantastic versions on this world. So the fall of Imaskar was the Black Sea deluge, which in some theories is behind the expansion of the Indoeuropean/Kurgan culture. So the Plains of the Purple Dust is all dust of dryness. A post-Imaskar realm, Raumanthar (like Hettites, cause of their skill with metals) warred with Mulhorandi god-kings, not the first Imaskari. Another post-realm conquered Durpar (Dravidians), would be similar to the process described in the Vedas (including the high technology). But I have no details cause I never ran a game in the Utter East. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 01:03:09
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@Icelander - have you read my article in the Candlekeep Compendium? I tried to do several things with it, including a little 'Easter Egg' of lore on how the Utter East was settled by Ffolk and Northmen. I used the canon lore Umberlee's Fist to explain-away some of the problematic continuity (including the conundrum of the inconsistent cultural tropes).
Even when we don't see the logic in canon, we should still use and work-around it.
Anyhow, the Utter East, we (non-official) scribes decided had a history of warfare and invasions/migrations (this is actually apocryphal canon, from the Blood & Magic video game), starting all the way back in the Days of Thunder. Ancient (primordial) magic is buried deep in the region, and massive wars have been fought over it.
Anyhow, the original peoples in the area were not human (several groups - hold-overs from thew time of the Creators), and the very first were the Zakharan (Muhjein) tribes that were displaced by Fate.
Tempat Larang & the Mar:
The Mar of the Utter East are actually a branch of the Ang racial group (the Indiansque peoples of southern Kara-Tur). Originally just one of many small 'jungle kingdoms' in that part of Faerun, the expanding Anok-Imaskari conquered the mostly peaceful Larangans (more like 'just declared themselves rulers'), and installed an Imperial governor. As the Shou of Anok became more and more decadent, and their abuses became more profound, a small group of Larangans calling themselves the 'Mar' (meaning 'disgruntled' in Lidahan) left Tempat larang and headed into the Mountains. Lead by a holy man (mystic), they discovered a beautiful valley hidden from the rest of the world, and began life anew. This settlement became know as Langdarma (Faces of Deception), and was considered 'blessed by the gods' (the Lords of Creation in the K-T religions, but better known to us as the Vedic Pantheon).
Sometime later, a terrible civil war broke out in the remnants of the Imaskari Empire, and losing ground to 'demonic hordes', Tan Chin relocates his capitol from Khati to Chu'ta Te (Chukei Plateu), and renames the new Kingdom 'Shou-Lung' (followers of the Dragon). The governor of the northern Anok province sinks into madness, calls himself the T'Shar (shadowlord), and renames the kingdom T'sharoon (land of the Shadow Lord). Chaos reigns in the Taan, and the myriad Imaskari survivor states all sink into various states of depravity.
Tempat Larang, under the governorship of Sangkal Chumbi, became semi-autonomous for a time, and eventually built into an empire of its own, controlling much of the Segara Sea (The Shao Mountains Empire). After Tan Chin (Joon Tsao Choo) was defeated in Kuo Meilan (faking his own death), he fled south to his old stronghold in Tempat Larang, where he took control of the current Emperor of Tempat Larang (Tan Chin is a Suel Lich), and began his plans of Kara-Turran conquest anew. Unfortunately for him, he no longer possessed his original body, and therefor did not have the right blood to activate the secret golem army beneath Tempat Larang. In trying to find someone with the right blood - some unknown descendent of his - he sacrificed hundreds of innocent citizens, to no avail. He also began construction of the Larang Highway, which angered Nung Chiang, using the Ang peasants of the surrounding regions like slaves (The folk of Tempat Larang itself were of mostly Anokian stock). The Immortal ordered the highway project stopped, and Tan Chin refused, and so the exarch caused the volcano Mt. Tengkorak to erupt, burying the city beneath lava and ash. The Ang peasants who were pressed into service begged the gods mercy, and so they were shown the secret path through the mountains to Langdarma.
Langdarma - sweet, tranquil Landarma, literally the 'valley of the gods' - could not support the large amount of refugees, and so, after rest and re-supplying, they were directed by hidden paths further west, through the towering Yehimals, into the land known as the Utter East. Recently having had their populations reduced by bitter tribal warfare, the Zakharan descendents allowed the peaceful Mar to settle along the foothills of the mountains, leaving the coastal lands to the Horse Nomads and Muhjein fisherman. And so the two inter-mixed, and the Mar culture (and gods) took root amongst the Muhjein peoples, and after just a few centuries they became one.
This was the land the Arkaiuns of the Shaar raided into on their rampage through Veldorn and Durpar, and then into Ulgara (later to be called Ulgarth), where they ran afoul of descendents of Imaskari mages that had settled there in ancient times, and driven back north to their own ancestral home. It was also the land torn apart by wars - some started by those same Imaskari descendents - where golemic armies were thrown against each other, and most of the Utter East Muhjein met their ends, as the Mar cowered in their mountain villages. This was the land discovered by those Ffolk and Northemen, thrown far off course into strange seas by a twist of Fate, who in their turn began their own wars of control for those lands. This strife - often called the Bloodforge Wars - spilled into the surrounding lands, including the northern portion of Zakhara, where the many rulers found it necessary to unite to drive back the evil forces from the Land of Fate.
This is the Utter East. A land steeped in blood, a land forged in blood. It is the land of Blood & Magic.
Don't know if that helps anyone - I just pieced it back together mostly from memory - it may have a few continuity problems, which is why I left out any dates. All names and places are canon - the lore is based heavily on canon, with some filler to link everything together. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2012 01:06:52 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 15:47:19
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Ok, I'm still trying to assimilate all the relevant lore so that I can have an opinion of the above.
One question, Markustay, where does the notion that the Shou are interlopers from another crystal sphere come from? Is there any canon support for that idea, either from any of the 2e or earlier sources or some mention that made it into GHotR?
Frankly, I don't quite see the need for interlopers. Not in an ethnic sense, at any rate. The strange look of the Shou is more than adequately explained by Earth-like genetics, especially if we keep in mind that the Maraloi (fey-ish) probably interbred with some of the human populations.
As for the culture, I would rather link that to the (clearly interloping from somewhere) race of dragons. You don't need an ethnic connection to spread culture. Ideas bread without an actual blood admixture taking place. An excellent way for ideas to spread is for some parts of the area having been ruled by Lung dragons before the rise of Imaskar and Anok-Imaskar. |
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Topic |
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Ethnic origins of Shaarans and Durpari and others
