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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 16:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[quote]You can say that again. I remember trying to sort some of that out myself as concerns Raumathar and Imaskar and the maps they showed of those empires... thinking the hordelands would be the ultimate resource, but it just didn't add up with some of what was said in other products. Of course, the question that kind of arises is how fluid were the borders of Raumathar and Imaskar during their lifespans.
I haven't come across any meaningful contradictions with Imaskar and Raumathar yet. What is the problem there? |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 18:11:20
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What about Dire Animals? What's the history of their evolution (or creation) and spread across Fearun?
I always thought they are ancient descendants of the megafauna living on Toril before recorded history. Like the earth, earlier mammals had less competetion within their ecological niche, and came to grow to immense sizes. Dire animals would still have such an advantage if the room for their habitats didn't overlap that many competitors. Their size still gives them an edge in direct confrontations with those competitors, but their needed daily resources can limit their total population sizes across the Realms. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 11:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What about Dire Animals? What's the history of their evolution (or creation) and spread across Fearun?
I always thought they are ancient descendants of the megafauna living on Toril before recorded history. Like the earth, earlier mammals had less competetion within their ecological niche, and came to grow to immense sizes. Dire animals would still have such an advantage if the room for their habitats didn't overlap that many competitors. Their size still gives them an edge in direct confrontations with those competitors, but their needed daily resources can limit their total population sizes across the Realms.
As you know, sages tell of a World of Ice in the history of Toril. For eons and eons, the world existed in frozen darkness, with ice covering most of the regions known today. The world never totally froze solid*, but it was not far from it.
The cause of this unimaginable catastrophe is reported to have been Dendar the Night Serpent, who greedily devoured the Sun itself.** It is for this reason that the what may have existed before the Cold Night or the Epoch of Ice is often termed Time of the First Sun. As far as anyone knows, during that time, Toril was mostly covered with water, excepting only mountaintops and high plateaus.
Toril's First Sun must have been warm and lifegiving indeed, because the oceans teemed with life and even the mountaintops overflowed with creatures from the depths who learned to slither, crawl or walk on land. If any who lived then were more than merely beasts and built civilisations, not even myth recalls them. Neither the Sarrukh nor Fey interlopers claim any presence in these days and no legends speak of the Aeree or anyone else flying in those early skies.
Perhaps there were great kingdoms of fish-people in Toril's seas, distant ancestors to the batrachi that later came to the fore as a Creator Race in their own right. Perhaps there were not. Who can tell?
It is said, however, that in the oceans there swam great lizard-like beasts and that some of these walked on land as well. Flying lizards may also have existed, though there is nothing to suggest a connection to dragons, because these were cold-blooded and unintelligent creatures.
Some sages maintain that ancestors of modern man, as well as ancestors of all the myriad warm-blooded, hairy animals who bear their young live, had already emerged during this time. Perhaps they had or perhaps they were created later. From the amazing diversity of these creatures and the rapidity with which they overran the world, they were either already present during the Time of the First Sun or some event took place after the Cold Night that spread them fully formed all over the world.
That event, of course, could have been the emergence of a new sun in Toril's sky. Where it came from, no one knows, but it is certain that at some point before the Days of Thunder, a bright new sun had risen over the land and started melting the ice.
Toril was largely ice-free in -37,000 DR, at least the known parts of it, which I interpret to mean that the melting of the world ice that covered from pole to tropics had started some millenia before that. As an estimate, let's say that the new sun accounted for most of this ice in 5,000 years, which gives the date for the beginning of time, from the perspective of modern Toril, as approximately -42,000. This is just a guess and the real number might be anywhere from tens of thousands of years before that, to just a few short years before -37,000, assuming that whatever event caused the sun to emerge also gave it a significant leg up on the melting front.***
In these early times, Faerun, Maztica, Anchorhome, Kara-Tur and Zakhara were all one super-continent, Merrobouros. Considering that before the ice had all melted, the sea levels were at their lowest level in history, it is even possible that for the first few millenia after the New Sun, this super-continent covered a far larger area of Toril, with areas that are now hundreds of feet under water being part of the continental landmass.
From the New Dawn to the Days of Thunder, however long that was (anywhere from slightly over 2,000 years to tens of thousands of years), unintelligent Thunderers (dinosaurs) spread rapidly after the melting of the ice that covered most of Toril. They covered all the land of the endless Merrobouros, the seas around it and the skies above it. They were truly the favoured of Orobouros and it was from this stock that the intelligent Sarrukh are presumed to have been created.
That is, the Thunderers and their cousins, descendants and so forth lived everywhere on Toril it was warm enough for their cold-blooded constitutions. The temperate climes to the north and south would have been marginally acceptable for the larger among them, but the nearer to the receding glaciers they got, the less they would have liked it.
It was there that the warm-blooded went. For the time between 42,000 DR (or any number for the New Dawn people prefer) and 35,000 DR (rise of the first Sarrukh civilisation), the world knew no civilisations, just the Thunderers that ranged from the tropical jungles to the temperate plains and the warm-blooded creatures who lived in the colder forests, higher mountains, steppes and tundras.
Of course, such creatures had to be large, to better retain heat. And they had plenty of space and the predators among them had plenty of prey, because in those early days, the world was lush and verdant and even the tundras teemed with life.
An unspecified ecologic catastrophe took place in -33,800 DR, caused by Sarrukh epic magic. Its effects were mostly concentrated in the North, more specifically around modern-day Aunaroch, and it brought down a mighty realm of Sarrukh there. Most likely, one of the effects of this catastrophe was to further lower the temperature of Toril and/or temporarily suppressing magical means of warming this particular region to make it more comfortable for the Sarrukh. The overall result was that warm-bloods proliferated further, starting to compete with the Thunderers over a wider range.
In -31,000 DR, concurrent with the arrival of the dragons, there was a mini-ice age, caused by the Tearfall. It must not have lasted very long, however, as both the Thunderers and the warm-blooded animals survived. On the other hand, it is likely to have spurred their evolution even further, increased the range of the warm-bloods at the cost of the Thunderers and, by causing the fall of some of the earliest Creator Race empires, opened up formerly settled land as wilderness.
The arrival of the great dragons just after -31,000 DR meant a new apex predator. The first of the dragons did not know magic and had no wings, and so their initial spread was not as rapid as their later ranging. The first wyrms were both land- and seawyrms, and they were concentrated in the Black Sea (modern day Sea of Swords), on the western island of Viakoo/Myrmidune (modern day mysterious landmass west of Maztica/Anchorhome, in the Sea of Corynactis), in tropical Katashaka and under the Orsraun Mountains.
For the first millenia, the dragons existed as merely one among the Creator Races, benefitting from the somnolence of the Sarrukh and their descendants and the collapse of the Batrachi empires. They competed with the Aearee and the giants. Dragons almost universally enslaved early man everywhere they went.
Winged wyrms are thought to have resulted from Aearee breeding experiments on domesticated wyrms, creating the wyverns. Whether true winged dragons then evolved from wyverns or dragonic deities responded to this outrage by endowing free dragons with flight is not important. What is certain that many of the dragons learned to fly around a millenia after they arrived on Toril and at that time, the greatest and certainly the fastest military conquests ever seen in Toril's history commenced. Within days, the race of dragon-kind had torn apart the empires of the Aearee and the landwyrms had taken over much of what is now Faerun, excepting only the far north and the Shining South, as well as parts of Anchorhome and most of Katashaka.
Over the next five or six millenia, until the Sundering of the continents, dragon and giant fought over the north, with the giants reaching as far south as the Vilhon Reach at one point but the dragons's star being ascendant after that. Until, that is, the intervention of the Fey and their interloper servants. The story of the King-Killer Star is well known and set forth elsewhere. Let it suffice to say that the dragons went mad in -25,000 DR and over some millenia after that, there was an orgy of blood and fire.
Until the dragons learned to fly, they could not truly threathen the survival of either the Thunderers or the warm-blooded creatures as a whole. After -30,000 DR and especially after the first Rage in -25,000 DR, dragons ranged everywhere and any large herbivore, Thunderer or warm-blooded, was potentially food. The dragons gorged themselves on the great Thunderers and the great mammoths, aurochs and suchlike. The majority of dragons, however, prefered the warmth over the cold, and the Thunderers were thus more favoured as prey.
After the dragons had lost their empires and become solitary hunters, it left the surviving dragonic human slaves (and some elves) free. The elves mostly ignored these primitive creatures and concentrated on building their own great empires, allowing human tribes to spread freely anywhere the elves did not claim. The elves carefully husbanded the flora and fauna of their lands and it was in their lands that most of the common species of Faerun grew numerous. After all, the dragons eventually learned not to hunt where there were elves (particularly 'civlised' elves, i.e. the ones who built cities), because the elves could defend their lands with powerful magic.
Today, Thunderers only survive in areas that are hard for flying predators to reach, i.e. hidden valleys, badlands (like the Stonelands) and under water. While there were historically elven kingdoms over some of their range, these fell so long ago that the dragons (and others) have long ago managed to hunt all the easily accessible Thunderer species. The largest ones have all gone extinct, except possibly in the depths.
The more resilient warm-blooded huge beasts of the North have had their historical range much reduced, but no part of Faerun has ever really been so settled that the elves or humans that ruled there could manage to overhunt much. Mammoths still exist in the far north and giant aurochs ranged in Cormanthor almost within living (elven) memory. There are still such aurochs in the North and the same applies to most of the megafauna, with the most adaptable among them having managed to retain a place in the temperate lands.
Ostoria, the giant kingdom of northern Merrobouros, exerted a heavy toll on the population of most of the megafauna there, but it never extended far enough to the west (modern north Anchorhome) or east (modern Hordelands and Kara-Tur) to cause the wild herds there to collapse.
Early humans certainly lived on those herds during the barbaric times before the first recorded human civilisations. Even with all the will in the world, they had still not managed to cause much of a dent in their numbers by the time of the first human kingdoms around -8,000 DR, because there were human civilisations that after the fall of Imaskar went back to hunting these herds.
It is true that by that time, the truly giant beasts were mostly in the very northern reaches, with 'normal' sized herd animals that were domesticated living on the steppes, but the megafauna has not yet died out on Toril and any 'prehistorical' creature from our world that could conceivably survive in temperate climes is quite likely to do just that on Toril.
*Evidence suggests that the equatorial areas may not have been covered in glaciers, but they were certainly ice cold. Something warmed Toril during this time, though, as not all higher lifeforms died out. The prevailing theory (among the few, mostly Sarrukh, sages who even know about this time) is that Orobouros, the World Serpent, cradled Toril with his body, warming a band around the equatorial regions with his power as he waited for the Wheel to turn and for the cycle to begin anew.
Alternate theories exist. One is that the moon emitted a pitiful amount of heat and life-giving energy, which sustained some lucky few plants, beasts and possibly primitive sentients around the equator. Worshippers of Selune are quick to claim her divine hand behind that, of course, and in truth, the frozen darkness must have pleased Shar and enraged Selune.
Another theory is that in response to the darkness and cold, great fires rose from mountains and bubbled under the freezing seas, keeping some areas from freezing and creating today's volcanoes. These fires somehow nourished life in a similar way to the sun. While some see the hand of Kossuth in this, the elemental lords are uncaring for their worshippers, let alone plant and animal life that cannot even give them worship. Those who adhere to this theory rather claim that it was a personification of the land itself that acted to reassert balance and thus, the credit belongs with the gods of nature, all acting together (and likely, all the same being at that early time).
**Whether or not he acted at the whispered instigation of Shar will probably never become known. The smart money, though, points to 'yes'.
***On the other hand, Occam's Razor tells us that rather than posit a few years of fierce burning that would have required massive divine interference just to keep what remained of Toril's living creatures safe, we should probably assume some period of grace. After all, whoever put the sun there presumably wanted life to thrive, so I doubt s/he would welcome turning Toril into a ball of molten slag for a while. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 13:14:34
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Excellent. Love the way you tie in Torils ice ages, thunderers (dinosaurs) and dire animals into a cohesive bio-historic whole.
Regarding the "vulcanic reheating" theory for the melting of the "First" Ice Age; one thing I always had problems with was the issue of torilian vulcanism and its ties to the Fire Elemental Plane, instead of being driven by tectonics as is the case on Earth with its molten iron core. That the supercontinent Merrobouros split up into multiple continents could be evidence of active tectonic movement on Toril too. Perhaps tectonics is an area of geomantic lore that is still left unexplored. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12027 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 14:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[quote]You can say that again. I remember trying to sort some of that out myself as concerns Raumathar and Imaskar and the maps they showed of those empires... thinking the hordelands would be the ultimate resource, but it just didn't add up with some of what was said in other products. Of course, the question that kind of arises is how fluid were the borders of Raumathar and Imaskar during their lifespans.
I haven't come across any meaningful contradictions with Imaskar and Raumathar yet. What is the problem there?
I've come across things that say Raumathar never extended north into Rashemen, yet there are maps that show Raumathar covering Rashemen, etc... The exact borders of Narfell and Raumathar vary depend on the writer, etc.... Then there was some lore that said Raumathar never extended into Thay, but clearly the city of Kensten was a Raumathari city. Newer lore has started to become more standard stating that Raumathar did indeed include Rashemen and portions of Thay (though which parts of the priador were Raumathar's is still a little unclear), but at the time (10 years ago?) there were some contradictions that just didn't make sense. There were also some things at that time with Imaskar, but most of that lore was in the hordelands set. Basically, the Imaskari were portrayed with different faces (which was a possibility mind you)... one was the technology people, one was the master of planar magics, and one was that all of their magic revolved around fiends and curses and black magic. Ultimately, I believe (as with any major empire) there were multiple "groups" of Imaskari. Some were masters of techno-magic (i.e. the artificers) and many of their secrets were taken up by the Raumathari in the manufacture of war machines. There was probably some mixing in between those who focused on planar magics and those who focused on fiends, curses, and black magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 14:06:39
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I was just wondering - has anyone attempted a Realms bestiary?
I know that nearly all older sources (1e/2e) had local flora and fauna, especially those Elminster's Ecologies. It would be cool to see a compilation of all of that.
I had started one, but my notes are all gone now. Glad I never got very far with it (just some Hordelands stuff).
@Sleyvas - at different points in history, Raumathar and Narfel controlled different portions of each other's conquered territories, which is why mapping them is so hard. The wars between them went back and forth, with one side winning, then the other, and so on. The conflict was very similar to the Crown Wars (but on a much smaller scale), in that the destruction escalated as both sides took part in an 'arms race' mentality. By the end of the conflict, Raumathar was just as steeped in fiendish lore as Narfel was (at least one powerful Mage switched sides, and I am sure there were others).
It may seem odd that their were 'traitors', but they were actually the same ethnic group - the Nar were an ancient offshoot of the Gur, who in-turn were a nomadic sub-group of the Raumvari, and the Raumathari were direct descendents of the Raumvari. The Raumvari used to have their own empire in the distant past (Creator era?), around the Great Ice Sea. In fact... if you look at Yal Tengri... it looks like an enormous crater... Hmmmmmm...
@Icelander - I have a theory about the fey and those pyramids that seem to crop up all over the place - I think they used them to warm certain regions (focusing and harnessing either raw magic or solar energy... but I think those may be related anyway).
From my research, I had figured that the region around the Plain of Horses (Northern K-T, NE Taan - around the Ama Basin) was kept unnaturally warm for thousands of years, which melted most of the Mountaintop glaciers in the area, and artificially created a verdant period in the Hordelands. When the magic ran out, the area got cold again, and the melt-off stopped, which dried-out the Quoya basin. I figure that not only was Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake) bigger, but there was also a smaller body of water - about the size of the Lake of Mists - where Inupras stood (and unfortunately the Imaskar maps do not reflect that). Some of this was gleaned from the DoD modules (the waterways that used to exist in the Raurin). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2012 14:23:30 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 14:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Excellent. Love the way you tie in Torils ice ages, thunderers (dinosaurs) and dire animals into a cohesive bio-historic whole.
In addition, what I said above is as near as we'll get to canon on the subject, given that it's based on things excised* from Brian R. James' work before the GHotR was published, as well as several Ed lore replies on the age of Toril, dragons, dinosaurs and megafauna.
Nothing in there contradicts any lore of which I'm aware and most of it is actually based on canon.
*But still consistent with what made it into the published version.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Regarding the "vulcanic reheating" theory for the melting of the "First" Ice Age; one thing I always had problems with was the issue of torilian vulcanism and its ties to the Fire Elemental Plane, instead of being driven by tectonics as is the case on Earth with its molten iron core. That the supercontinent Merrobouros split up into multiple continents could be evidence of active tectonic movement on Toril too. Perhaps tectonics is an area of geomantic lore that is still left unexplored.
I would very much favour plate tectonics being absent on Toril. The depth of the Underdark and the prevailing conditions there mean that assuming anything close to Earth-like tectonics is just out of the question.
There are icy oceans and cool cities at depths where no water ought to exist if Toril resembled Earth in any way, having long ago turned to steam. While there are volcanic areas and vents in the Underdark, these appear to have only a superficial correlation with depth (and only because the Lowerdark has the most extra-planar connections) and there is no suggestion that things get warmer the deeper you go.
The seperation of Merrobouros into different continents was caused by elven high magic, not geological forces. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 14:30:26
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I edited the above post with some info for you, Icelander.
Toril does not have large-scale tectonic activity. On a world where gods exist such explanations are not necessary, and are actually counter-productive (as Icelander points out). However, that does mean that there isn't deep vulcanism occurring, which does manage to work its way to the surface in very isolated regions (and probably monitored/controlled by those very same gods). On earth, I think there is about 600 miles of crust (IIRC) before you hit core material, and Toril is slightly bigger then Earth - that gives Drow and others probably around 800 miles to 'play in' (more then sufficient, IMHO).
Most of the large-scale geographic changes were wrought by 'Tear falls' - note how many bodies of water (and mountains) have the word 'star' in them. 
There was another large body in Realmspace at one point (perhaps more) - Ed has confirmed this.
People need to look closer at the terrain... thats all I'm saying.
Oh... and there is a MASSIVE skull floating in Realmspace. You got to have all the pieces to see the big picture. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2012 14:31:24 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 15:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just wondering - has anyone attempted a Realms bestiary?
I know that nearly all older sources (1e/2e) had local flora and fauna, especially those Elminster's Ecologies. It would be cool to see a compilation of all of that.
I had started one, but my notes are all gone now. Glad I never got very far with it (just some Hordelands stuff).
Would be pretty cool to see something like that, yes. Unfortunately, I'm willing to invest nearly infinite time in research, but almost no time in writing, compiling or (especially) layout. Hence, as soon as I have a mental picture good enough to extrapolate from to use during a game, I'll stop.
Not the right sort of attitude for a loremaster, who ought to make knowledge available to everyone, not just himself, I think you'll agree. As soon as Deneir gives me some discipline and energetic drive, I'll get right on that attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It may seem odd that their were 'traitors', but they were actually the same ethnic group - the Nar were an ancient offshoot of the Gur, who in-turn were a nomadic sub-group of the Raumvari, and the Raumathari were direct descendents of the Raumvari. The Raumvari used to have their own empire in the distant past (Creator era?), around the Great Ice Sea.
Where can we find evidence of this Raumvari ethnic group that pre-dates all these groups? And where is the reference about their empire of the distant past?*
The way Races of Faerun, The Hordelands and UE present it, the Raumviri are the descendants of the Raumathar Empire while the Nar are the descendants of the Narfell one.
The Rashemi, in turn, are certainly related to the Gur, and were culturally and ethnically fairly distant from both empires at the time of their war. This doesn't mean that they didn't all spring from the same stock at some point, just that it was long enough ago that the Rashemmi were distinct from both groups. Modern Rashem (those who make up the population still in the country), however, have since that time interbred with the Nar (first and least), the Raumviri (continually and most) and the Mulan (from the Orcgate Wars, mostly, and the centuries after that, with modern Rashemi disdaining most Mulan).
*If there is one, it will revolutionarise all the ideas I had about the human migration patterns so far. Any date earlier than the Sundering would be shocking, while one earlier than 34,000 would make a lot of canon questionable and require some nimble explanations. A date between -18,000 DR and concurrent with Imaskar would be okay, but if it lasted long enough (and was powerful enough), it would require explanation for why Imaskar didn't mention them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact... if you look at Yal Tengri... it looks like an enormous crater... Hmmmmmm...
Canonically unchanged from pre-Tearfall days. If you want to propose something causing it, you'll have to set it in the pre-history before the new sun.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Icelander - I have a theory about the fey and those pyramids that seem to crop up all over the place - I think they used them to warm certain regions (focusing and harnessing either raw magic or solar energy... but I think those may be related anyway).
Not bad. Can you give me a list of the locations for these ancient pyramids, so I can make sure to remember that those are fey-ish places?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From my research, I had figured that the region around the Plain of Horses (Northern K-T, NE Taan - around the Ama Basin) was kept unnaturally warm for thousands of years, which melted most of the Mountaintop glaciers in the area, and artificially created a verdant period in the Hordelands. When the magic ran out, the area got cold again, and the melt-off stopped, which dried-out the Quoya basin. I figure that not only was Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake) bigger, but there was also a smaller body of water - about the size of the Lake of Mists - where Inupras stood (and unfortunately the Imaskar maps do not reflect that). Some of this was gleaned from the DoD modules (the waterways that used to exist in the Raurin).
Agreed. Actually, I had already concluded that at some time shortly after the Sundering, Kara-Tur was hot. As in, burning. Volcanism and everything. And the ash in the air started by cooling down everything, of course, but after that short-term effect passed, the fumes contributed to a general temperature increase by increased opaqueness of the atmosphere.
Side-effect of the Sundering, I'm thinking. I want to find ways to allow all the legends in the different campaign settings to be true, for given values of true. They are, at least, parables for real events.
On the other hand, it is clear that the Days of Thunder were warmer than modern Toril (no doubt youthful exuberance on the behalf of the sun), until the twin disasters of the Folly of Isstosseffifil and the Tearfall, both of which resulted in a temporary (or permanent) drop in temperature on a worldwide scale, as well as localised glacialisation. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 15:11:35
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Markus, could you reply to that any parts the above post that has more to do with human ethnicities in a seperate post in my Human ethnicities scroll?
Leaving this one for animals. Geological changes are relevant for animals, so stuff you want to contribute about them are on-topic here, of course. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 15:26:35
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LOL - sorry. They all seem to blend together after awhile.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 14:26:48
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I've been thinking about the origins of horses (and centaurs).
Now, I have my theories, and they fill me with a warm and giddy satisfaction. I base them on the principle that the urheimat is where you find the greatest diversity of variation and on examining the 'types' of horses and centaurs in the Realms. I think I've found a central place where it's possible to trace their beginning.
On the other hand, I don't want to go against any canon. So, can scribes assist me in dating the earliest mentions of horses or centaurs in Realmslore?
Anything that suggests that a culture has started to use horses or that horses live somewhere, wild or domesticated. Also, all canon mentions of what are clearly 'centaurs' in Realmslore.
For example, the presence of wild horses in Maztica suggests an origin before the Sundering. On the other hand, these are small horses, perhaps too small to ride. In addition, I found no reference to any type of centaurs present on Maztica in canon lore. It is possible, therefore, that these small horses represent an early development of the horse on Merrobouros, before it was large enough to be ridden by humans and well before anyone domesticated it.
The 'noble' horses might have resulted from something else entirely mixing with these small wild horses... |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 15:38:30
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I think that's a great question for Ed because dispersion of animals of the Eqqus genus and predecesor lines seems very much to mirror what appears to have happened in real life.
Here's a short description of the evolutionary action. Modern domesticated horses were unknown in the Americas and only reintroduced by Columbus and subsequent explorers. The feral herds (which came to be known as Mustangs) developed through losses by Spanish explorers and missions and were subsequently re-domesticated by several native tribes. Interesting to note though is what appears to be a migratory pattern of predecessors to the modern horse from the Americas across the Bering land bridge into Euraisa and the subsequent reduction of equine species in the Americas before the above reintroduction.
Based on the description given, it sounds like the "small horses" are NOT modern horses of the Eqqus genus but rather a predecesor of it in the evolutionary stages between Miohippus and Dinohippus.
Miohippus being the last of what is considered the early equids and moving into what are considered to be several evolutionary stages of true equines ending with Dinohippus. There is also the final evolutionary stage prior to the modern genus which was called Plesippus and is considered to be the equine version of The Missing Link between Dinohippus and Eqqus. It was roughly the size of a small Arabian horse and its oldest remains were found in the fossil beds near Hagerman, Idaho. This is the animal whose population split with some moving south toward the Central American region and some that followed the migratory pattern mentioned above, moving into Eurasia, when temperatures began to cool. The group moving into Eurasia thrived and continued to evolve into the modern horse while the group moving south toward Central America stagnated and eventually succumbed to evolutionary pressure.
Now that the short real-world history lesson is over, from my background of having raised horses I think the dispersion of Torillian species that you described closely parallels real-world evolutionary activity. I think any of these evolutionary stages could be used to hypothesize a link to the centaur line and devise a genealogical link to explain their existence in the absence of magic.
Be interested to hear what you come up with.
Good Hunting! |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 15 Feb 2012 15:42:02 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 18:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Most of the large-scale geographic changes were wrought by 'Tear falls' - note how many bodies of water (and mountains) have the word 'star' in them.
There was another large body in Realmspace at one point (perhaps more) - Ed has confirmed this.
People need to look closer at the terrain... thats all I'm saying.
Oh... and there is a MASSIVE skull floating in Realmspace. You got to have all the pieces to see the big picture.
Okay, now you've got me... a SKULL??? If this is from the Spelljammer Realmspace supplement, it's been a while (6+ years) since I read it, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that. Where are these pieces you refer to? And the terrain... that makes sense, with what you've already said; the Yal Tengri clearly looks like a MASSIVE crater, but wouldn't an impact causing a crater that size have shattered Toril altogether? Not to mention causing mass extinctions that would make the end of the Cretaceous on Earth seem like another day of business as usual.
Edit: Where do I look outside of the GHotR to find more information on "the" Tearfall? Thanks! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 15 Feb 2012 18:45:08 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 18:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Now that the short real-world history lesson is over, from my background of having raised horses I think the dispersion of Torillian species that you described closely parallels real-world evolutionary activity. I think any of these evolutionary stages could be used to hypothesize a link to the centaur line and devise a genealogical link to explain their existence in the absence of magic.
Be interested to hear what you come up with.
Good Hunting!
Well, if we're going to use evolution to explain centaurs, we can also use it to explain minotaurs, merfolk, were-creatures, and even treants (not to mention countless other species), starting from the simple premise that the existence of half-elves, half-orcs, half-ogres, half-trolls, half-giants, and half-dragons suggests that humans are cross-fertile with ANYTHING. 1E AD&D opened a Pandora's box when it brought half-elves and half-orcs over from Middle-Earth... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 15 Feb 2012 18:43:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 19:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Most of the large-scale geographic changes were wrought by 'Tear falls' - note how many bodies of water (and mountains) have the word 'star' in them.
There was another large body in Realmspace at one point (perhaps more) - Ed has confirmed this.
People need to look closer at the terrain... thats all I'm saying.
Oh... and there is a MASSIVE skull floating in Realmspace. You got to have all the pieces to see the big picture.
Okay, now you've got me... a SKULL??? If this is from the Spelljammer Realmspace supplement, it's been a while (6+ years) since I read it, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.
Skull of the Void is described on page 54 of Realmspace. It's a 12 mile high skull. It's inhabited by slightly mutated illithids. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 20:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Most of the large-scale geographic changes were wrought by 'Tear falls' - note how many bodies of water (and mountains) have the word 'star' in them.
There was another large body in Realmspace at one point (perhaps more) - Ed has confirmed this.
People need to look closer at the terrain... thats all I'm saying.
Oh... and there is a MASSIVE skull floating in Realmspace. You got to have all the pieces to see the big picture.
Okay, now you've got me... a SKULL??? If this is from the Spelljammer Realmspace supplement, it's been a while (6+ years) since I read it, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.
Skull of the Void is described on page 54 of Realmspace. It's a 12 mile high skull. It's inhabited by slightly mutated illithids.
Interesting. What kind of mutations?? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 21:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Most of the large-scale geographic changes were wrought by 'Tear falls' - note how many bodies of water (and mountains) have the word 'star' in them.
There was another large body in Realmspace at one point (perhaps more) - Ed has confirmed this.
People need to look closer at the terrain... thats all I'm saying.
Oh... and there is a MASSIVE skull floating in Realmspace. You got to have all the pieces to see the big picture.
Okay, now you've got me... a SKULL??? If this is from the Spelljammer Realmspace supplement, it's been a while (6+ years) since I read it, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.
Skull of the Void is described on page 54 of Realmspace. It's a 12 mile high skull. It's inhabited by slightly mutated illithids.
Interesting. What kind of mutations??
Ah yes... I remember this now. The illithids can levitiate as a result of prolonged dining on the brains of captive beholders...but is the skull natural or artificial, and if the former, whose skull was it?
DOH! Post #1900... and it's BLUE! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 15 Feb 2012 21:40:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Ah yes... I remember this now. The illithids can levitiate as a result of prolonged dining on the brains of captive beholders...but is the skull natural or artificial, and if the former, whose skull was it?
DOH! Post #1900... and it's BLUE!
Given the size of the skull, the fact that it magically repairs any damage, and that it generates its own atmosphere, I'd assume it's artificial.
If I had to make a guess, I'd say it was some bizarre bit of Reigar craftwork. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 16:23:43
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Could it perhaps belong to a "Dead God" as pictured in the easily Google-searched D&D Cosmology with the sepia tone?
Just a random thought....
Good Hunting! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 18:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Could it perhaps belong to a "Dead God" as pictured in the easily Google-searched D&D Cosmology with the sepia tone?
Just a random thought....
Good Hunting!
It's a thought, but dead gods generally wind up in the Astral. Plus, I'd expect to find the rest of his skeleton around somewhere. That's why I'm leaning more towards the Reigar as an explanation: it could be some bizarre bit of artwork, because bizarre art is a a Reigar thing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 20:06:14
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But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did. 
@Jakk - there is no one particular place to read about tear-falls. At one time, with all the mentions of 'the' tearfall it was thought that there was only one, but I have evidence of at least a dozen (You need to read the history behind places like the Starmounts, and then study the geography - much of Toril's landscape was created by LOTS of falling debris).
The most recent in modern (1e/2e/3e) memory was in the far NW of Faerūn, somewhere in the Moonsea North, and perhaps even somewhere out on in Pelvuria. It is mentioned in both The Great Glacier, and also is the basis for the entire storyline in 2e's Payer's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. The heat was so intense it is what caused the fairly recent 'release' of Vassa & Damara from the ice (the climactic warming is indeed mentioned in tGG product).
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
This may or may not be related to the Tears of Selune. My personal belief is that they are related to the conflict, but perhaps not the same being. You don't need to just study the maps. lore, and naming conventions - you also need to look at the symbols of certain gods.
And horses aren't natural - they are a crossbreed between Centaurs and Haygriva.
To be serious for moment, I think that Vedic power (and that pantheon - at least some part of it - exists on Toril) is also responsible for some of the horse-headed Oni common to to Kara-Tur. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2012 20:35:32 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 20:13:25
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| You know, with Toril being the result of catastrophes, wouldn't the landscape look rather more rough and jagged than our world? You know, far less time for erosion to do its thing, unless of course the deities have been giving that natural process a bit of a push. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 20:45:18
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Considering a recent 'tearfall' - the one caused by the Sojournor - had little effect at all, I would definitely surmise that the gods have a 'softening' effect when it comes to these calamities.
But Toril is riddled with craters - you just have to know where to look (so is our Earth - just glance around a world map). "Time has a way of healing all wounds", even planetary ones.
The thing I have the most fun with as a Realms aficionado is spotting all the patterns. Some may be accidental, others placed carefully by Ed, and some are probably just my own desire to find such patterns (both Pareidolia and Apophenia).
Buts its still fun, regardless. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2012 20:46:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 22:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Even dead gods aren't depicted as being that freaking big. And I don't see how, even for a god, one portion of the skeleton would continue to regenerate after death. Lastly, the auto-generation of atmosphere is problematic, with the godly explanation -- if this was formerly the head of a god, then this deity literally had air in his head.
It's far easier to explain it away by saying it's an artificial construct, even if not my suggestion of Reigar artwork.
Oh, and Realmspace is a 2E supplement -- so whoever thought up the Skull couldn't have had primordials in mind. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Feb 2012 22:41:09 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The most recent in modern (1e/2e/3e) memory was in the far NW of Faerūn, somewhere in the Moonsea North, and perhaps even somewhere out on in Pelvuria. It is mentioned in both The Great Glacier, and also is the basis for the entire storyline in 2e's Payer's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. The heat was so intense it is what caused the fairly recent 'release' of Vassa & Damara from the ice (the climactic warming is indeed mentioned in tGG product).
That's very recent, as in within 400 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
Where can I find the canon that you extrapolate that from?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This may or may not be related to the Tears of Selune. My personal belief is that they are related to the conflict, but perhaps not the same being. You don't need to just study the maps. lore, and naming conventions - you also need to look at the symbols of certain gods.
The Tears of Selune were caused by an attempt by the dragons to destroy the King-Killer Star.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And horses aren't natural - they are a crossbreed between Centaurs and Haygriva.
This may not be entirely facetious. Except, instead of a cross-breed, think 'most recent common ancestor'.
While small horse-like creatures might have roamed early Toril, large, strong and fleet horses useful for riding are fairly recent. Toril isn't old enough for traditional real-world evolution to have produced all the varieties of equines that exist on it, so one almost has to resort to magic or the divine.
It isn't implausible that imagine that centaurs (all types), Haygriva, buraq, pegasi, hippogriff, zebras and all the 'nobler' horses all result from the presence of a primeval people* of mutable nature some place on Toril and their interaction with the small wild horses originally there.
*The forerunners of nature spirits and fey.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To be serious for moment, I think that Vedic power (and that pantheon - at least some part of it - exists on Toril) is also responsible for some of the horse-headed Oni common to to Kara-Tur.
I don't know. I don't quite see the horse (or a central importance to human cultures) as indigenous to the areas where the original Lords of Creation pantheon would have existed in the Realms.
On the other hand, the Devic pantheon looks like it is composed of the gods of a conquering culture triumping over a more settled and pastoral people (the conqueror then settled down afterwards and more settled gods emerged again). The invading gods mixed with the older, animist gods. Horses might have been a feature of the last wave of conquest.
In fact, it looks like people on horses have conquered much of Faerun, in successive waves, beginning sometime in the last ten millenia. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Feb 2012 23:11:56 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Hiding in plain sight, right? 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Jakk - there is no one particular place to read about tear-falls. At one time, with all the mentions of 'the' tearfall it was thought that there was only one, but I have evidence of at least a dozen (You need to read the history behind places like the Starmounts, and then study the geography - much of Toril's landscape was created by LOTS of falling debris).
The most recent in modern (1e/2e/3e) memory was in the far NW of Faerūn, somewhere in the Moonsea North, and perhaps even somewhere out on in Pelvuria. It is mentioned in both The Great Glacier, and also is the basis for the entire storyline in 2e's Payer's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. The heat was so intense it is what caused the fairly recent 'release' of Vassa & Damara from the ice (the climactic warming is indeed mentioned in tGG product).
Heh... so it's time for me to play geological detective. Which maps do you suggest I use for this? I have the FR Atlas, and I have (all or nearly all) the maps made publicly available by you and HandsomeRob. I also have my 1E taped-together mega-map, but it's tightly rolled up in a 6' long, 8" diameter PVC map tube together with every other map from 1E and 2E ever published, and removing them might result in not being able to put them back...
The Star Mounts are a fascinating place... from the lore in the OGB, it seems fairly clear that the Aearee have a final remaining toehold in Faerun at the peaks, and the dwarven realm of Onthrilaenthor is (even more than Undermountain or other dwarven ruins) the FR analogue to Moria. However, I'm curious about the implications of the hints dropped in the OGB:
quote:
Located in the heart of the High Forest, this steep-sloped cluster of mountains ascends higher than even the tallest peaks in the Spine of the World. It is possible to see the snowcapped mountain tops, and the slopes which sparkle like cut diamonds, from as far away as the Stone Bridge, or the mountains north of Loudwater.
The elves of Eaerlann first named the mountains, giving them the same names as stars in the northern heavens. Most of the original names are forgotten, only their rough translations survive: Bard's Hill, Mount Vision, and Hunterhorn. Yet, a few are remembered: Y'tellarien (The Far Star), called Far Peak, Y'landrothiel (Traveler's Star), called Mount Journey, and N'landroshien (Darkness in Light), called Shadowpeak.
The forest south of the mountains hides a gnarled surface that might be called a badland were it not so densely thicketed. To the north, the land is unusually smooth, as if leveled with a woodworker's plane. The mountains are also known to be rich in metals, including remarkably pure iron and nickel. But since the end of Eaerlann, no one mines there.
The Star Mounts are an unapproachable curiosity. The ancient elven names hint at some unfathomable mystery (though most suspect the elves know the truth of it). As far as anyone knows, no flying thing less powerful than a dragon can land there due to constant and usually fierce winds.
(emphasis mine) High-purity iron and nickel would certainly suggest a meteorite... and I'm just coming up with this now... it came in from the north at a fairly shallow angle, and yet a significant part of its already huge mass survived; it was hot enough to melt the bedrock north of its impact, resulting in the smoothness described, and the remaining part is what we know as the Star Mounts. The unquoted part following the above quote is the part that implicates the aearee (but not directly; it mentions instead that aarakocra have no difficulty with flight to and from the peaks, and we know from later lore that the aarakocra are the heirs to, or at least the favoured creations of, the aearee).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
This may or may not be related to the Tears of Selune. My personal belief is that they are related to the conflict, but perhaps not the same being. You don't need to just study the maps. lore, and naming conventions - you also need to look at the symbols of certain gods.
The symbols of certain gods, hmm? Well, the symbols presented in Faiths & Pantheons aren't telling me much... although the symbols of the mother and daughter Selune and Mystra are startlingly similar in form. I need to check out the simple two-colour symbols given in FR Adventures (2E) to confirm or deny something that I seem to recall from that era; didn't one of the gods have as their symbol a meteor or shooting star? ?!:]
I'm sure this whole train of thought (right back to the giant skull in Realmspace) would be better suited to its own scroll, but separating the terra from the fauna is probably a job for a mod... assuming that Markustay agrees that such a separation should be made. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Feb 2012 23:41:35 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
Where can I find the canon that you extrapolate that from?
I'm curious about this too... is this something to do with the original Imaskari? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:00:51
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@Icelander - the power that 'died' in Realmspace was the first sun - this is detailed in the War of Light & Darkness lore, and supported by the Draconic creation myth (see 2e Draconimicon).
However, I really don't think the only 'heavenly body' (because I think Primordials are actually represented by planets, like in Greek and other mythologies) destroyed during that conflict was The First Sun. Which brings me to......
@Jakk - look at Shar's symbol in particular - it appears to be a 'dark moon'.
Reminder: Most of this is pure speculation. As I have said, I just like connecting all this stuff together; I have no way of telling if any of this was Ed's intent.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:09:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Even dead gods aren't depicted as being that freaking big. And I don't see how, even for a god, one portion of the skeleton would continue to regenerate after death. Lastly, the auto-generation of atmosphere is problematic, with the godly explanation -- if this was formerly the head of a god, then this deity literally had air in his head.
Well, I was thinking Primordial, not god.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's far easier to explain it away by saying it's an artificial construct, even if not my suggestion of Reigar artwork.
I feel the exact opposite - if its a skull, why say its something else? Occam's razor = "from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and Realmspace is a 2E supplement -- so whoever thought up the Skull couldn't have had primordials in mind.
And you make the assumption the entire supplement was written in a vacuum, devoid of any connection to Realmlore.
Ed (and THO, and many others) have told us countless times about the amount of 'unseen' Ed-lore Mr.Greenwood sent to TSR - who's to say the Realmspace author didn't go 'cherry-picking' in some of that? Ed may not have had 'Primordials', but we know he had 'Watching Gods'.
I prefer to think that the trend to "ignore all previous canon and design whatever we feel like" is a fairly new phenomena (ignoring the obvious Netheril box example). I'd like to think that at least some of that may have been based on how Ed saw the space around his world. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Feb 2012 00:13:41 |
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Elephants (And lions and tigers and bears, oh my!)
