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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 21:32:36
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I decided that I would put my very long answer here, in a new thread, so I can have a catch-all for my thoughts. I often go on about my own proto-cosmology, which I now have a chance to re-think, since all of my old notes on the subject are gone (which isn't necessarily a bad thing - imagine being able to 'clean house' inside your head).
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Well, I don't know if I believe time is circular, but I do believe 'history repeats itself', and that there are 'self-fulfilling prophesies'.
What I believe (my HB over-setting theory) is that there was once just one world, where the gods actually dwelt on Mountain-tops, and the Giants and Dwarves continued to forge the landscape. A place where the powers created the 'first folk' - the Ancients... the ones people from Toril now call 'The Creators'.
That first 'experiment' failed, and ended in war and bloodshed. In fact, the very concepts of War and Death were born at that time. The First World - the TRUE world - was shattered, and a myriad number of smaller spheres were created from the fragments; miniature (and sometimes warped) copies of that 'perfect' world. This is sometimes called 'the Godwar', but what most mortals don't realize is that that was merely the first battle in an ongoing conflict 'in the heavens' (and hells).
And that first war was not fought over good and evil, as many believe - it was more along the lines of law vs chaos, and many angels 'fell' because of atrocities committed for the sake of victory. The sides of the conflict would not even be recognizable by mortals today, for much has changed since. The very elements themselves became corrupted, and entire planes were born.
What does this mean for us and the future of D&D? It means that there is no single 'setting' - there are just endless perturbations of the one world. Some worlds are more closely linked to that first world - they are like microcosms of what once was. Toril is one such world - it maintains the greatest number of fixed connections to other worlds and other planes then any other (known), and it for this reason that it is so hotly contested (by Outsiders). These connections are at-times stronger, and sometimes weaker, and at other times they are in total conjunction (this situation becomes forced whenever the veil between the worlds - The Weave - is weakened or damaged). When the Spheres are in conjunction, that mystical 'veil' becomes so thin that mortals can unintentionally move between the worlds - hence, The Forgotten Realms.
FR becomes the core of a meta-setting in FR, if they use this line of reasoning. Every world, every plane, they have had influence on. Lands (and on rare occasions entire planets) have been swapped between spheres, because of conjunctions, hungry proto-planes (demi-planes), and something Sages call 'Cosmic Alignment Correction' - the property of the universe that cause areas and large groups of people to spontaneously shift from one plane to another, because their 'core being' has shifted to that of the new plane. We see this phenomena most often in the case of the 'Gate Towns' of the Outlands.
So the universe is guided by strict rules, but these rules collapse during times of conflict, like world-altering catastrophes, and when the 'veil between the worlds' (The Weave in Toril's case) is damaged or threatened.
So to answer the question, I don't think there are 'Oerthians', or 'Torillians', or Krynnites - I think all states of being are temporary. Peoples from the Realms have been influencing other worlds since the beginning of time (when the True World was shattered), and vice-verse - it is all part of some greater whole. the Netherese could very well be 'their own grandpas', which is why so many powers - both good and evil - try to prevent these sorts of time-paradoxes from occurring.
On the other hand, the Aberrations are constantly trying to alter the timestream, in the hopes of weakening reality enough to destroy the Universe itself, and return it to the condition that existed before the Elder Gods polluted it with their imposed order. They work to weaken the veils between the worlds, and to create paradoxes - some are subtle, some not so much.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 16:08:07
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 22:49:38
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This is good stuff... I got goosebumps reading it. I only have one quibble, with terminology in the last paragraph. My "Elder Gods" are very much like those of Lovecraft, and from what you've written, your cosmology has such entities as well... but yes, I suspect that I will be using this.
Oh, and remember that not *everything* you've created is gone... you still have what you've posted here over the years, but I realize that it's probably a very small fraction of what you've come up with. Anyway, onward and upward... and it looks as if the Realms are headed in that direction as well.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 23:41:22
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Some parts remind me of the rise and fall of the Valheru from Feist's novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 23:49:55
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| How did you break the right hand margin? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 01:13:59
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I break a lot of things. 
Not sure - sorry (I use a High-Def TV for a monitor, so everything is always 'stretched' to me).
Apreciate the kind words - I have to hunt down other threads (Quale's fey thread has a lot) where I posted some of my proto-cosmology.
The 'Elder Gods' are sometimes called 'Watchers' (Ed's 'Watching Gods'). They are also called the Old Ones, The First (among Celestials), and even the Conceptuals. They are not the Lovecraftian powers.
I call all beings of the Overgod tier 'Ordials', and each are assigned planes they tend (they are the Caretakers). Thus, the ones assigned to the Prime are known as PrimOrdials. For this reason, the beings above them - the Elder Gods, are sometimes also called Archordials by uninitiated mortals, or even 'Great Ordials'. Those beings were created from the initial, rational thoughts of the sentience of the universe itself (I do not separate the concept of 'THE God', and the universe itself - I believe in something closer to 'the Force'- the Universe is the 'body of god', and all things it it are a part of it).
Then there are the things that exist outside of the universe - that place mortals refer to as 'The Far Realms'.
Those creatures fall well outside of the normal hierarchy of the cosmos - even outside of such distinctions as 'Outider' and 'Prime' - they are a thing unto themselves, and each group of them has their own sets of rules they choose to follow, or ignore. They do not even need to follow the constraints of time, because time is one of those concepts that only exists within the universe. They do, however, follow its rules (the timestream) when operating within any portion of the universe (because they then can fall prey to the paradox problem).
Most groups have their own leaders, who also defy the normal rules of power when trying to compare them to Cosmic* beings. The normal methods of measuring these things do not apply to them. There is one, however, that most groups of Aberrations pay deference to - Cthon. Creatures of the far Realms believe Cthon was the first 'great being' formed in the Primordial soup.
The cosmic entities of the universe believe that when The First (Great Spirit, God, whatever) pushed the random chaos from its mind and created itself, Cthon was the result. The Farealmsian creatures say that it was Cthon that expelled the order from its own mind, trapped all thoughts in a bubble, and constrained them with the chains of time. Thus, two very different views on how the universe was created.
Cthon may or may not be the same being as the Abolethic 'Eldest'. Some Aberrations claim it is, others vehemently deny it (like the Aboleths themselves), while others do not even care... they have their own 'gods' (like the Illithid). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 01:15:37 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 07:59:23
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Do you have a theory who are the Watching gods? at least some of them
''History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme'' - Twain
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 17:24:04
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I am assuming one for each dimension -
Dimensions:
1 Self (life) - Gaia
2 Distance (space) - Ptah
3 Reality (matter) - Ymir
4 Power (energies) -
5 Strength (stability) - Sesha/Vishnu
6 Balance (Yin-Yang) - Emmantiensien (World tree)
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9 Creation (demiurge) - Brahma
10 Entropy - Shiva
11 Time - Chronus (Chronepsis, not Kronos)
Obviously, this is real rough (my notes are all gone now). Anyhow, they are listed in order from least to most powerful (each concept 'rules over' the ones beneath it). Also, the higher the number (order), the less 'reachable' said being is by mortals. Chronus, for instance, is barely even aware of deities, let alone material beings. I also included the name that we (gamers, not necessarily the folk inside the settings) know them best as. They are also know as 'Drękons' in the High Celestial tongue (it means 'majestic power') - a language which is not so much spoken, as it is transferred mentally (a language of concepts, rather then words).
'The Great Spirit' sits above all of those, so it can be considered a '12th dimension', although it actually encompasses all the others. Each is but a single concept within the mind of GOD (the universe).
This means that if we count Cthon and the Far Realms as a dimension unto themselves (everything outside the normal universe), it could be considered the '13th dimension'. Cool, eh?
Using some of the 4e fluff, we can say that Angels (Celestials - of which there are many tiers of their own) have fallen (Devils), and that elementals have been corrupted by Primal Chaos (Demons). Originally all of these beings were created by the Ordials as servants from the material of the planes themselves (the over-group known as 'Oni'), but through countless millenia and in-fighting hundreds - if not thousands - of sub-groups have formed. We usually just refer to all of these as 'Outsiders' (but we also include planer natives of prime origin in that, which is a bit of a misnomer). An Angel (Celestial) can be both tainted (evil) and corrupted (chaos), but normally the evil comes first.
Obviously, I do not include Chaotic good beings in that category (although they are also outsiders). I haven't worked out all the details on them (Beastlords and such - beings born form the racial Overmind and desires of mortal creatures). I have to find a way of separating 'behavioral chaos' from Far-Reamlsian 'Aberrational Chaos'. They are related, but the first is more of a 'rebel' (sociopath), and the second is more of a physical and mental instability (psychopath?) There's a big difference between 'marching to your own drummer', and letting all sorts of psuedo-natural influences into your life (when you start eating your neighbors, you've crossed the line.
I guess, in my mind, D&D chaotic-good is really neutral-good (which means that maybe I should take another look at 4e's alignment system).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 15:53:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 17:25:41
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Trying too find a list of them I posted before, I came across another of my old posts, which I will re-post here (this is going to be my 'mental dumping ground').
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Chthon is used in Marvel Comics.
I was using just Cthon, based on the term 'Cthonic', simply because I did not like to use 'Cthulhu' for my 'great aberrational god' (I greatly dislike using deities from other worlds/settings).
Besides, although I am not a fan of that genre, I know that Cthulhu is NOT a god - he was the high priest of an even older ancient evil. In the new D&D terminology, I would say Cthulhu is an exarch of Chthon. I 'think' the real Cthulhu worshiped Hastur (going by the 1e DD), but I can't be sure. Either way, I would rather keep Hastur separate as well (he would be an Ordial in my parlance - those beings older then deities).
I had actually forgotten about Marvel's Chthon, until reminded by Sage. My version is a bit different - it is actually the entity better-known in D&D as Tharizdun (or Ghaunadar in FR, or even Shothragot). It has many names and faces; some are merely aliases, while others are self-aware avatars (by its nature, it can NOT create Avatars that aren't self-willed).
In a nutshell, it is the chaos that was expelled from The ONE at the beginning of the universe. As the first being came into existence, it expunged the roiling chaos from its burgeoning mind, thus creating the second being in existence. Chthon strives to return the universe to its primal state of pure chaos. In techno-spheres, this moment would have been referred to as 'the Big Bang'. The being's very first thought was "let their be clarity!", which some religions have translated to 'Let their be Light!".
The Demiurge would have been next. The universe was empty except for The ONE, and so it created Ymir (the concept of physical matter) from pockets of chaos that still hung within the newborn universe. The demiurge would have pre-dated that creation by infinitely small amount of time (which didn't even exist yet), and may have actually been created at the exact moment the first being split into two (which makes it a bit like Marvel Comics' In-Betweener). The other concepts soon followed: Time (Kronos), Space (Ptah), Life (Vishnu), Death (Nergal?), Good (?), Evil (Ahriman), etc...
The demiurge is usually represented in mortal mythology as female, and is oft-times referred to as the 'Earth-Mother'. She is the divine feminine. Without the ability to create and nurture, the universe would still be an empty place. None of these beings is actually either male or female - they are pure energy, and can take whatever form they want, if they even care to take a physical form. Most do not even interact with mortals - they use Ordials and deities for this (which are rally just uber-Avatars).
I used to call these beings Conceptuals, because of what they represented; the very building-blocks of the universe. I would have preferred Celestials, but that was already taken. Marvel Comics would refer to them as 'Cosmic Entities', but I usually just call them Elder Gods (capital 'G' - 'gods' simply refers to any being above mortal level).
They created the Ordials, and tasked them to create the Universe, and they shaped the Heavens and Hells. Avatars of Ahriman and Celestia(?) created the Great Wheel - the first artifact - which turned Radiant (Divine) Energy into soul-stuff. During this time Ymir was destroyed - it was the very first 'War of the Gods'.* The expanding Maelstrom of chaos that issued forth from his demise was contained into the Material Plane, which was latter separated into the four elemental planes and the prime. The Ordials called-forth the first of the mortal beings from the body of Ymir - the Jotuns (Giants) and Dvergar (Dwarves). From these first mortals the deities were born - either through ascendance or spontaneous creation - due to reverence of 'higher powers'. Annam was an Ordial, and he created the Giant pantheon (mortal giants did not come-about until MUCH later; same with the Dvergar).
Thats about it - real basic - I haven't even named all the Conceptuals (they should all be over-gods in existing pantheons, I think).
*I covered this in another thread - basically Chthon tried to destroy the universe by creating servants of his own (he cannot enter the universe - he must remain outside of it). These servants became known as Bahamut and Tiamet, who were designed to be the chaotic opposites of Ahriman and Celestia. After they were imprisoned by the Elder Gods they were made to swear-off chaos forever, and were greatly lessened in stature.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 18:14:57 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 09:35:30
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In my cosmology (which is otherwise very ill-defined and highly mutable, despite past posts here attempting to ascribe some structure to it), I use the Far Realm as the home of the Lovecraftian Elder Gods, and yes, Cthulhu was the High Priest of Yog-Sothoth in some Lovecraftian interpretations. Hastur is referred to as Cthulhu's half-brother; both of these connections are from The Cthulhu Mythos Encyclopedia by Daniel Harms. But Cthulhu himself is also worshipped as a god, and is invariably described as immortal, and in my view, immortality + worshippers = god. Yog-Sothoth and the other Elder Gods would, I think, be on a power level commensurate with Ao... and I'm not sure where such beings would fit in your ranking of divine powers. We know from canon that there is at least one level above Ao... although that may just have been a stab at the "fourth wall" there.
Regardless of the state of my cosmology, my theology is a bit more defined. The Elder Gods are the true gods of humanity (but not of non-human races), whether they know it or not. Humanity is fundamentally flawed, and the essence of that flaw is the Far Realm. This is why humans go mad; other races, apart from half-elves and other human halfbreeds, don't experience mental illness as we understand it, but can be temporarily driven out of their minds by sufficiently traumatic or horrific events; permanent mental illness is exclusively human (except as already noted). This human fragility is a result of human minds being advanced relative to their racial lifespan; they can comprehend the idea of the infinite, despite not having the lifespan to appreciate it beyond the theoretical, and it is this mental "overreaching" that causes some of them to go irrevocably insane. (Part of this comes from history; Georg Cantor, the founder of transfinite mathematics, and Kurt Godel, the originator of the Incompleteness Theorem - which also conceptually touches on the infinite - both went insane at relatively young ages, and Godel starved himself to death. Transfinite mathematics is another hobby of mine, along with psychology and philosophy, and part of me wonders if Lovecraft was right on a daily basis.)
Edit: Anyway, I'll let you have your scroll back now; I'm curious to see what other gems you have buried in the Candlekeep archives. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Feb 2012 09:36:58 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:23:05
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Trust me, I am constantly tinkering with it myself - like the cosmology itself, my interpretation of things is ever-evolving (as it should be).
In other words, what I - as a mortal - thought was true last week, WAS true last week. If I traveled to the Outer Planes, that is precisely what I would have saw. If I believed something completely different this week, then that is what I would encounter.
And here's the tricky part - nearly ALL beings not native to the Material Planes (and I include the four elemental planes in that) have psionic abilites - when not dealing with mortals, they communicate mentally. The more powerful the being, the more powerful its mind is. That means immensely powerful beings can use their own psionic ability to 'adjust' the thinking of others - THAT is how we get well-defined lanes and spheres. And that was preciselty what I think Ao did after the ToT - he slowly changed Torillian's perception of the universe, until the Wheel was replaced with The Tree (because of everything that happened in the ToT, he didn't want mortals to think that 'the heavens' was just some new dungeon to go and start trouble in... which Planescape/GW tends to make it out to be).
I also believe that (nearly?) all the 'Elder Evils' drive from the Far Realms - no-one knows their number, or even if their is a fixed number for those beings. Hastur and Cthulhu are still there - they may be posing as other beings we know, or not - does it matter? That is why no-one can ever pin-point any exact numbers for these beings - for all we know, the 'Elder evils' we know of are just avatars of something even more ominous. There is just no way of telling.
For instance, yesterday when trying to answer Quale's question I started digging (once again) into the roots of many cosmologies, and found some intriguing stuff out about Tiamet, and now I must re-adjust my thinking on her. She used to be Nammu - the sentience of the 'primordial sea' that existed before the universe did. That would make her/it an Elder Evil! Tiamet is probably just one of the many, MANY names (Takhisis, Livyatan) for that being's 'avatars' (sphere-specific manifestations).
Now I have to figure-out how I can use that and improve my cosmology as a whole. Obviously her connection to Entropy goes WAY back - I need to think on this more. I think there is an antideluvian (pre-universe creation) connection between her, Asmodeus, and the world serpent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 16:09:33 |
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The Nature of the (D&D) Universe
