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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:19:15
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So I'm planning a new campaign (after Kingmaker, in the next year or two) in a changed Sigil. I made a new planar structure, but can't find a good name for a plane where all petitioners live (but no gods).
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:37:03
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How about Ulterior, from the Latin for 'beyond', 'at the farther side'?
Edit: I meant to add that Ulterior can be shorted to Ultar. Not feeling very healthy at the moment. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 30 Jan 2012 10:12:58 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 10:15:51
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well, I want a word that means something, e.g. here's the rest of the planes
1. Abyss
2. Elemental Chaos
3. First World
4. Dead Space
5. Wheel and Axle
6. Petitioners?
7. Holy Mountain
8. Hyper-reality
9. Astral Void
Ulterior's a good idea, I'll use it if I don't find anything better (kinda associates with the world ultra). I also considered ''Afterlife'', ''Purgatory'' (too religious), ''Hereafter'', or something with the words ethereal, soul, eternity, and beyond. Elysium or Nirvana is too specific to one culture. |
Edited by - Quale on 30 Jan 2012 10:18:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 01:11:28
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| Recycluse? Expectoris? Ministro? The Overworld? Final Advent? Judgement? Last Promise? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2012 01:16:11 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 07:32:16
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Never mind, I decided to go with a different plane, and the soul conduits will go elsewhere.
Thanks |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 09:57:44
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Happy to help anyway.  |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 19:13:55
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I've been working on a new model of my own, that would include Cynosure and the Fugue Plane (but more universal, not FR-specific).
Not sure how I meant to use them LOL - it came to me the other night at 4AM, so now I don't remember where I was going to put them.
Anyway, I like the idea of the Fugue (as a weigh station for souls), and if you build upon that, you can have citadels (whatever) across the Fugue where representatives of certain powers sit and watch.
I'm trying a concentric-ring model now - I'm picturing the Fugue wrapped around the Outlands, and the border towns on the edge (or within) that, but I would love to see what you've come up with.
Are you completely divorcing yours from D&D? Can you explain your planes? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 19:14:55 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 23:38:11
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You can use the names of the Warrens from the Malazan books.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 09:27:42
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| They are usually focused on one element, e.g. Omtose Phellack (Ice), Kurald Emurlahn (Shadow), Rashan, Tellan would all go to the Elemental planes, only Mockra would be Astral, or weird things like Kaschan (Entropy). And they have weird names that the pcs don't like to bother remembering. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 09:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm trying a concentric-ring model now - I'm picturing the Fugue wrapped around the Outlands, and the border towns on the edge (or within) that, but I would love to see what you've come up with.
Are you completely divorcing yours from D&D? Can you explain your planes?
Just simplifying and organizing all the planes that ever were into three sets of three (rule of three). Not any complex geometric structure, what plane is up or down, on a lower or higher ''frequency'', based on how spiritual or abstract the place is. Starts with the most basic
1. Elemental Chaos: All the inner planes, with proto-matter in between (includes the ethereal, phlogiston, D&D Limbo-matter, PF Maelstrom).
2. Astral Core: Like the Astral Plane, also a plane of the mind, logic , psionics, contains thought-clusters of information, the akashic memory. Dualistic (0,1, dark and silvery void).
3. Dead Space: The Prime Material, no crystal spheres, like our universe, from the outsider point of view mostly vacuum and scarcely inhabited by mortals.
4. First World: Fey and spirit-world, it was a part of the Prime until it outgrew it and split.
5. Wheel and Axle: My version of PF Axis, Mechanus, Outlands and Sigil. Artificial plane, disk-shaped (no torus) with two spires on each side, the wheels and cogs in Undersigil are powered by the flow of souls. 30 factions.
6. Ulterior/Purgatory or the Fugue, how could I forget the Fugue, it's a perfect name. The afterlife plane, similar to Elysium (Greek, not D&D), each soul that gets here creates its own demiplane based on personal belief, some merge, some ambitious and religious souls transcend into the divine realms in the next plane.
7. Holy Mountain: Where gods live, the mountain is the most common description for such a place. I don't want to call it Cynosure, sounds like a place where dogs live lol.
8. Hyper-reality: Higher dimensions, the source of raw magic, places where powers experiment with unfathomable concepts and infinity.
9. Abyss: Fiendish plane, a place where cosmic failures are dumped. Includes demons, devils, qlippoth, titans etc. On one ''end'' it's infinite, on the other it reaches backwards into Chaos where it dissolves (overall it's a circular structure of the planes). |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:25:36
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I like your idea, Quale.
A while back, I constructed a world (sounds casual that, doesn't it) which had two bands of negative and positive energy woven around it in a Celtic knot. Each gap in the knot held a plane. My planes were very much linked to deities though. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:38:04
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I wouldn't use Cynosure for "where the gods dwell', I liked how it was used in FR - just a 'neutral ground' where gods meet and work things out.
@Kiaransalyn - I love that! VERY creative.
I'm picturing multiple pantheons, although arranged a bit differently then the standard ones - more like FR's mini-pantheons ('nature deities', 'Dark Three', etc), and when one group needs to interact with another, they use the Cynosure. When meeting with deities within the same domain (mini-pantheon), they wouldn't need to use that. Its basically so no god gets a 'home field advantage' over another.
I also prefer planes not actually being physically linked like they were in the great wheel - I'm finding that restrictive. I prefer the outlands be centered and anchored, and then a ring around that, divided into 4 'slices' - the Fugue, the Cynosure, the Astral, and the Shadow. Beyond the Fugue lies limbo, beyond Cynosure lies Nirvana, beyond the Astral lies heaven, and beyond shadow lies the hells... its a work-in-progress (and until i can map it out, i can't even picture it correctly).
I just wanted it to be like, the further you get away from reality, the more 'veils' you have to part. Not sure if its going to work, though.
I keep running into a wall when i try to merge shadow and death. they seem to work together well in fluff and rules, but not so much when you try to build a working model of the universe. In my mind, shadow should be all around the edges of the universe (like the skin of an orange), and the center should be an infinitesimally small pin-point of light... but infinitely bright. In other words, the plane of Radiance would be point, nothing more (how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?) beyond the Shadow lies nothing comprehensible - outside the universe lie the Far Realms.
But death - or rather, the place of the dead - should be one-directional. Spirits can't move outward unilaterally - it wouldn't make much sense (especially if 'god' is in the precise center).
So now I'm stuck somewhere between 'rings' and a sphere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 00:41:15 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
They are usually focused on one element, e.g. Omtose Phellack (Ice), Kurald Emurlahn (Shadow), Rashan, Tellan would all go to the Elemental planes, only Mockra would be Astral, or weird things like Kaschan (Entropy). And they have weird names that the pcs don't like to bother remembering.
Understandable. Though I like weird names, myself. Just not too weird and too tongue-twisting. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:03:18
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I suggest you establish a plane that acts like a "hub," connecting all the planes---like the Blind Eternities from Magic: The Gathering or the simply named "hub" from Feist's novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:58:51
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Ummmmm... Isn't that Sigil?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 04:14:13
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| How about Null, or Nullspace, as in no gods. |
Edited by - althen artren on 02 Feb 2012 04:14:34 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 00:49:26
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It'd be nice to have a plane that stands between reality and illusion, some kind of a variation of the Demiplane of Nightmare. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 14:42:39
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There was such place I think in the Beastlands, or call it Dreamscape.
Tough imo whole D&D multiverse is an illusion.
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
How about Null, or Nullspace, as in no gods.
That's the Astral, as in dead gods. Could work for the Prime too, to limit their meddling. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 14:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I like your idea, Quale.
A while back, I constructed a world (sounds casual that, doesn't it) which had two bands of negative and positive energy woven around it in a Celtic knot. Each gap in the knot held a plane. My planes were very much linked to deities though.
:)
In the last campaign I DM-ed, based on Talfir (FR Celts), similarly they had knots composed of Shar and Selune (representing dark energy and light) that formed the world behind the mortal senses. Mystra was the arcana needed to unravel these knots, like nodes in the tree of life. Now, in Sigil they have different views on things, the Lady of Pain gives them reasons to believe that the gods are not behind everything. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 14:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I keep running into a wall when i try to merge shadow and death. they seem to work together well in fluff and rules, but not so much when you try to build a working model of the universe. In my mind, shadow should be all around the edges of the universe (like the skin of an orange), and the center should be an infinitesimally small pin-point of light... but infinitely bright. In other words, the plane of Radiance.
It depends on what shadow actually does in your universe, what's the relation between entropy, chaos and negative energy, does it come from a source or is just absence of it? Are the planes of matter and spirit mixed? I don't really get positive and negative energy in DnD, and then there's radiance. In way Shadow could be a term for all the places that are not that point of light. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 21:50:02
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Shadow is a fugue-state for me - its the place that the dead travel-through to get to their afterlife, and by the same token, mortals must travel through to get there as well (a very classical interpretation of how these things work.)
Only problem is, that means both the heavens and hells needs to be 'beyond' that. I wish my brain worked in more then three dimensions (but then I'd probably be something else, wouldn't I?)
Since I have the opportunity to do so now, I am really going back to the beginning, and fine-tuning my cosmology to both the magic and rules of my world. To me, magic is the same thing as the 'power of creation' - it is the music of the spheres - the song God 'sang' at the beginning of time when it created the world. All Arcane (and Divine) Magic is a reflection of this - it is just 'different flavors' being sipped from the same fountain.
The problem I am having is that my Law/Good has two opposites - evil and Chaos, and I am not sure how to proceed. I may have to go back to my Torus-model, enclosed in a bubble. This way I get an 'up' and 'down' (like my diagram) for heaven and hell (once again, the classic view), and an 'Outside' for creatures that exist beyond our normal definitions of anything. Then the 'skin' of the universe become darkness (where Erebus dwells), not shadow.
I imagine the Great Wheel as a vast machine that churns-out 'soul stuff', and that it feeds upon the Primal chaos outside of the universe, converts it, and then adds to the universe (which is why it is ever-expanding, and why the creatures of the Far Realms seek to destroy it)
I have been thinking about putting the elements outside (4e's Elemental Maelstrom), which makes sense if I think of the Far Realms as sitting in a sea of proto-matter (primal soup, Ginnungagap, etc). That means, applying D&Ds edition-changes to it, for a time some of this non-matter was contained within the Elemental Planes (order was brought to the chaos), but this is no longer the case (post-spellplague).
I understand why they created the Maelstrom in 4e - it is a LOT more useful as a game mechanic that way (the Elemental planes were just far too hostile to be used in anything but epic campaigns). I dislike it, but I am still asking myself if I dislike it because I grew up with the Gygaxian model. What is so wrong about the elements being mixed in this fashion?
Anyhow, now I have more to chew on - always fun bouncing ideas off of you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2012 22:12:41 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:55:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I understand why they created the Maelstrom in 4e - it is a LOT more useful as a game mechanic that way (the Elemental planes were just far too hostile to be used in anything but epic campaigns). I dislike it, but I am still asking myself if I dislike it because I grew up with the Gygaxian model. What is so wrong about the elements being mixed in this fashion?
My POV on this is kind of funny. How can elemental fire and elemental water exist in the same space at the same time as it's purported to in the Elemental Chaos. Same goes for Earth & Air. They're esentially polar opposites. Then again, it's a good explanation for how to get the demi- and quasi-planes now that the positive & negative energy planes have 'moved off' so to speak.
Personally, I think this is an area that should be left intentionally vague canon-wise so that it can be used however fits a particular campaign with minimal effort.
Just ruminating while I wait to close up shop and head home for the weekend.
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:28:37
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Since it happened that some gods were forgotten and became so weak that they suddenly disappeared, why not have a plane that functions as some sort of an ICU for them? A plane where they can stay momentarily to recuperate and slowly reach out to mortals (via dreams or images) so they can once more be remembered and return as powerful as before? I can't think of a name for it at the moment. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:40:59
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Sanctuary might work as a name idea. A plane center, but of which no deities have power.
Even defeated deities might flee there in order to have a life. Not sure all that is looked for, Sigel clearly had magic use so magic null makes no sense. A place of immortality makes no sense either. A safe haven from the powers of divine powers could be crafted, however if magic use occurs, clearly the most powerfully would be as near deities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 01:06:45
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Or Asylum. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 02:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It'd be nice to have a plane that stands between reality and illusion, some kind of a variation of the Demiplane of Nightmare.
The Nightmare Lands [of RAVENLOFT], extracted from the Demiplane of Dread and dropped wholesale into the core cosmology, would probably qualify.
Check out the 2e boxed set, if you're able to find it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 02:36:51
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Hmm. I'll check that in Booksale. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 13:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shadow is a fugue-state for me - its the place that the dead travel-through to get to their afterlife, and by the same token, mortals must travel through to get there as well (a very classical interpretation of how these things work.)
Only problem is, that means both the heavens and hells needs to be 'beyond' that. I wish my brain worked in more then three dimensions (but then I'd probably be something else, wouldn't I?)
The problem I am having is that my Law/Good has two opposites - evil and Chaos, and I am not sure how to proceed. I may have to go back to my Torus-model, enclosed in a bubble. This way I get an 'up' and 'down' (like my diagram) for heaven and hell (once again, the classic view), and an 'Outside' for creatures that exist beyond our normal definitions of anything. Then the 'skin' of the universe become darkness (where Erebus dwells), not shadow.
I imagine the Great Wheel as a vast machine that churns-out 'soul stuff', and that it feeds upon the Primal chaos outside of the universe, converts it, and then adds to the universe (which is why it is ever-expanding, and why the creatures of the Far Realms seek to destroy it)
I have been thinking about putting the elements outside (4e's Elemental Maelstrom), which makes sense if I think of the Far Realms as sitting in a sea of proto-matter (primal soup, Ginnungagap, etc). That means, applying D&Ds edition-changes to it, for a time some of this non-matter was contained within the Elemental Planes (order was brought to the chaos), but this is no longer the case (post-spellplague).
I understand why they created the Maelstrom in 4e - it is a LOT more useful as a game mechanic that way (the Elemental planes were just far too hostile to be used in anything but epic campaigns). I dislike it, but I am still asking myself if I dislike it because I grew up with the Gygaxian model. What is so wrong about the elements being mixed in this fashion?
Anyhow, now I have more to chew on - always fun bouncing ideas off of you.
You can have Shadow replace Astral (it's the medium for souls), in 3e Tree cosmology the Shadow was the basis, where Ao planted all. I tried to imagine your planes in a torus, even a very circular one with just a point in the middle, or like a galaxy. Can't think of nothing better that helps. This image is the closest I found, maybe mix the Prime and the Inner planes, that they're on the same level, and the center is the axis of law, and entropy works towards the edge.
I also use the wheel of soulstuff, the difference is that it powers one city, and the Far Realm doesn't exist. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 16:44:01
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The Far Realms doesn't exist in my Homebrew either - I just use the planer structure as presented in things like the Elric novels, or The Chronicles of Amber. My aberrations are more like aliens, from another world, and all are related to a Batrachi-like proto-race (which is where I get my 'morphic blood' concept from).
I do use the Shadow as 'a place for lost souls' - it is my Fugue. Some get stuck there (become various types of noncorporeal undead), and some get to 'move on' (or are captured by the fiends, which routinely perform 'harvests of souls').
I have the near-Ethereal, which is just another name for that world we can't see, but is part of our world (The 'woods between the world', or the Mittlemarch - another term I stole from Moorcock). From there, one can travel 'upwards' (4th dimensionally) to Faerie, and 'downwards' (4th dimensionally) to the Shadowfel. This two regions have mistakenly been called the 'Deep Ethereal' (Faerie) and the Plane of Shadows (Shadowfel). All are actually one plane - its like a sea, and it depends on the 'depth' you enter it. Mortal sages often like to assign far more divisions to the planer structure then their actually are.
What in earlier editions was called 'the Ethereal Plane' was actually the Ethereal sea, in which there are many islands that make up the Feywild. Planer Cartologists mistakenly thought this sea was a plane unto itself. The Shadowfel has a similar setup - hundreds of islands (some the size small continents) located in a sea of mists (which used to be called the Plane of Shadows).
Beyond Faerie lies the astral - the 'planes of light', and beyond the Shadowfel lies the Hells.
So you see my problem - when a person dies, their 'soul' is already moving in the direction of the hells, which makes little sense. Unless I use some Judeao-Christian modeling and say that "if they are already 'chosen' by their deity to come live with them, they go directly there, and don't wait in a 'fugue state' ". So, in other words, 'good' souls (or those the gods like) don't have to wait around at all - I think tats the way I will have to go.
What I like about that is that it is a nice 'out' for DMs (or authors) who don't want the PCs to 'speak with dead' to reach their goals easier. A 'chosen soul' would be much harder to reach (picture Jaak at the end of the Everis Cale series).
As for the Plane of Nightmares, I was using THIS, but I will probably have to make changes to that, given some of my new pondering concerning Faerie. I did that long before I tweaked the entire cosmology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 11:35:55
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Indeed, aberrations, to me they are aliens or obyrith/qlippoth. They are out there, hardly ever used (in the alienist faction that I have, they experiment with the blood of outsiders, sometimes includes even them).
quote:
"if they are already 'chosen' by their deity to come live with them, they go directly there, and don't wait in a 'fugue state' ".
That works, some mythologies tough have tests before ascending into the planes of light, e.g. if use the Egyptians or the Celestial Bureaucracy, or in near death experiences when they see the light at the end.
In my Sigil gods have a minor role, just another type of outsiders. Temples in the city are about archetypes, like the Fane of Shadows from Erevis Cale, there are statues of many gods inside. |
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Help with with the name of a plane
