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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 08:55:28
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Assume you hate the Netherse in-game and want to see their Empire destroyed.
How would you go about it in game?
They've been built up to be almost invincible.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 08:57:38
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Have Larloch or Selunnara run the show. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:10:18
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Do one of those 'sun creation' rituals that priest of Lathander did at the tail-end of 3e (and GHotR).
Pop a brand-new, shiny sun right above Shade, and watch them all crumble.
If that doesn't work, sick the Warlock Knights of Vassa on their butts (assuming that Radiance is the new 'positive energy') |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:36:34
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I'd use a barbarian invasion, return the magic-hating Rengarth equipped with antimagic dust and clockwork flying devices (found in Delzoun).
Or put Ioulaum in a colossal construct and make him care about the image of Netheril the Shades are making.
Or the Halruaans decide to clean Shade of artifacts they collected. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 11:12:12
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| I'd go the Selunarra route, myself. Not that they'd destroy Shade, but they'd be a focal point for opposition to them. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 11:54:23
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Or you can start a civil war among the princes, with Telamont forced to choose sides. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 13:46:39
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| My preferred method is to slip a spellfire wielder into Shade just after it returns and have her/him blow up their mythallar. The resulting explosion destroys the center of the enclave, along with all of the princes, and pretty much everyone else dies when the enclave hits the ground. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 23:40:09
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Thanks,
My plan so far is that the Netherese are slowly fragmenting. It's been centuries since their return and they haven't really made nearly the progress they expected to. The return of Mystra in my campaign just shoots them in the foot as all their efforts for Shar sort of go up in smoke.
I'm going to start my game with one of the Princes of Shade getting killed by Manshoon in a spell duel. Why Manshoon? Mostly I hate the way the "classic" villains have been sat upon by the newer ones and I like the idea of Elminster's rival taking one down. The next I actually was going to have the players help assassinate.
I am interested in what sort of aftermath the fall of the Shades will have, though I don't think I'll kill the entirety of the nation. If nothing else, players are meant to be heroes after all. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 00:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Thanks,
My plan so far is that the Netherese are slowly fragmenting. It's been centuries since their return and they haven't really made nearly the progress they expected to. The return of Mystra in my campaign just shoots them in the foot as all their efforts for Shar sort of go up in smoke.
I'm going to start my game with one of the Princes of Shade getting killed by Manshoon in a spell duel. Why Manshoon? Mostly I hate the way the "classic" villains have been sat upon by the newer ones and I like the idea of Elminster's rival taking one down. The next I actually was going to have the players help assassinate.
I am interested in what sort of aftermath the fall of the Shades will have, though I don't think I'll kill the entirety of the nation. If nothing else, players are meant to be heroes after all.
Centuries? Did they come back before the canon return in your campaign, or have you moved your timeline far past what is currently canon? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 00:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
My preferred method is to slip a spellfire wielder into Shade just after it returns and have her/him blow up their mythallar. The resulting explosion destroys the center of the enclave, along with all of the princes, and pretty much everyone else dies when the enclave hits the ground.
I dunno. The Chosen (five of them, if my math is right) tried to do exactly that. They failed, of course. Well, perhaps you can use some evil Chosen (ten, if possible) which Mystra apparently has. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 00:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I am interested in what sort of aftermath the fall of the Shades will have, though I don't think I'll kill the entirety of the nation. If nothing else, players are meant to be heroes after all.
It would appear too unlikely to kill off everyone. Remember, in the long history of Toril, from all the fallen empires, there are always survivors. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 01:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd go the Selunarra route, myself. Not that they'd destroy Shade, but they'd be a focal point for opposition to them.
I've tweaked with such a possibility before.
Especially after having Selūnarra return after a significant period of further exile. Perhaps they're simply waiting for the Shades to over-extend themselves, and then insert Opus back into the Realms at a time when the Shades may not be able to properly defend all of their holdings. Which would also work to the Harpers' advantage, I'd imagine. It might simply be an alliance of opportunity. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 01:09:59
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Hmm. I'd rather have them indirectly influence matters that would eventually lead the Shade princes to over-extend themselves. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 03:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
My preferred method is to slip a spellfire wielder into Shade just after it returns and have her/him blow up their mythallar. The resulting explosion destroys the center of the enclave, along with all of the princes, and pretty much everyone else dies when the enclave hits the ground.
I dunno. The Chosen (five of them, if my math is right) tried to do exactly that. They failed, of course. Well, perhaps you can use some evil Chosen (ten, if possible) which Mystra apparently has.
Of course they failed. Who succeeded in that trilogy, aside from characters created by Denning?
It's one of my complaints about that trilogy. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 04:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Assume you hate the Netherse in-game and want to see their Empire destroyed.
How would you go about it in game?
They've been built up to be almost invincible.
Serve platter after platter of Tequila Sunrise cocktails.
A few of those, it'll bring 'em down.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 06:10:41
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| Judging from Ed's last Elminster book, just send the Simbul. From what I read, her old stats of a 30th level spellcaster are about 15 levels too low. Have Larloch and his liches hold off the majority of Shade while she detonates the enclave's warp core. Unusual alliance, but I wouldn't be surprised if those two actually got along quite fine, afterall they both strike me as near demi-gods. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 08:02:45
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Nah, I'm still in this time. Centuries is just a poor choice of words.
As for the Simbul, sadly she's dead in my game along with the rest of the Chosen.
The Selunnar might work but I kind of wonder if that shouldn't be a false alarm. The PCs seek out the culture only to find that it's in ruins, mostly because it's a bit too Deus Ex Machina. Still, it might contain some sort of secret that can change the nature of the world.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 09:34:27
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Have you read Paul's novels? You can get some nifty ideas from them. There's a probable civil war to come, if I interpret the signs correctly. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 10:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Nah, I'm still in this time. Centuries is just a poor choice of words.
As for the Simbul, sadly she's dead in my game along with the rest of the Chosen.
The Selunnar might work but I kind of wonder if that shouldn't be a false alarm. The PCs seek out the culture only to find that it's in ruins, mostly because it's a bit too Deus Ex Machina. Still, it might contain some sort of secret that can change the nature of the world.
Another option is to kept it as a planar city (perhaps the city elders/leaders want to protect the city from the world's troubles), but have elements from the city seek out the world to help the fight.
Sorta like what they are doing with the Eladrin in Fourth Edition, the older generations want to seal off the world while the younger ones want to embrace it.
This way you can keep the city intact, but avoid the cons of dropping another floating city into the world and the good city/bad city aspects which could occur. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 11:42:15
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Yeah, I just want to avoid taking away from the PCs.
It's alright for one or two of the Shade Princes to get assassinated by bad guys or killed by Elminster ala Gandalf and the Balrog but if it came down to a fight between the Selunnar and the Shades, the Shades would grind them to ashes unless the PCs were leading them because - well, the game is about them.
I think the only time I ever violated that was when I let the PCs release a couple of imprisoned gods of good to spank Asmodeus for them, which - honestly - is probably for the best. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 12:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Yeah, I just want to avoid taking away from the PCs.
It's alright for one or two of the Shade Princes to get assassinated by bad guys or killed by Elminster ala Gandalf and the Balrog but if it came down to a fight between the Selunnar and the Shades, the Shades would grind them to ashes unless the PCs were leading them because - well, the game is about them.
I think the only time I ever violated that was when I let the PCs release a couple of imprisoned gods of good to spank Asmodeus for them, which - honestly - is probably for the best.
Why not connect the PC's to Selunnara?
Humans and Aasimar/Deva could be descendants of the city or even have been born there (Could use the themes idea from Fourth or a Kit from Second Editions).
The mentors for the PCs could come from the city. Arcane characters could have learned from one of the Arcanist of the city, Divine characters could make pilgrimages to the Temples on the city, etc.
Look for ways to connect the PC to the city to make use of assets without letting it take over. Like using the chosen and so forth. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 18:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Look for ways to connect the PC to the city to make use of assets without letting it take over. Like using the chosen and so forth.
That's exactly how I'd use Selunarra: as an indirect foil to Shade. Let them work against Shade by allying with goodly beings, and by using adventurers. And let their methodolgy include things trying to make alliances or get to Netherese artifacts before Shade even knows what's going on -- there's no need for direct conflict.
Quoting myself, from a few years ago:
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 19:15:47
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Other ideas:
Selunnara having embassies like Shade or Thay, guarded bases in places like the Dales or Cormyr. Bases where they can export tools, teaching and advice to counter Shade and other darkness.
Where ever you go, if it has people it has groups. So why not create groups connected to Opus, like the Shards/Moons/etc of Netheril/Opus/Selunnara or the Shining Arcanist.
Or items like the Venom of the Moonplatypus, which is harmless to good humans, cause damage in evil humans and death in shades.
Thoughts?
PS:
Is it wrong I see the evil Shade Wizard Doofenshmirtz fighting secret Selunnara agent Perry the Moonplatypus? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 31 Jan 2012 19:17:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 19:33:56
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Create a giant magnifying lens above the city, and burn them like ants?
I actually can't take a group that would flinch at a flashlight seriously, but here goes...
There are some good ideas here - I like Selunarra as a 'red herring' - a place the PCs go to get help, but find it long abandoned (don't say why - leave that a mystery - something the PCs can explore in the future). However, have them find a piece of a 'doomsday device' the Selunarrans were working on, and then they have to find the rest of it (or just complete it). Like a 'Staff of Seven parts' type of adventure-path.
Then when they finish it, they have the first(?) Umbral Siphon - the Shadow Weave equivalent of a Weave Tap. Set that baby up somewhere in the vicinity of Shade, and watch it go down. I am picturing something like what happened with the Phaerimm's life-draing, except the PCs will have found a way to drain negative (Shadow) energy.
EDIT: After a little research -
If you choose to go the route of 'each piece has its own powers', then I suggest you read Steven Schend's Dragon 213 article on Series magic (it mentions the Staff of Seven Parts and The Staff of Waterdeep, which was featured in the Solo adventure Knight of the Living Dead). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 20:01:44 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 20:09:34
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What I did was different than what has been proposed so far. In my campaign, Telamont is becoming more and more insane, he's getting more irrational thoughts, possibly caused by his humanity having been gone for so long. He killed a few of his sons himself, after they failed to meet his expectations, which are pretty high. He lost many of his citizens, some having fled to Halruaa, many more have been killed in a war against the North and the Lord's Alliance. They lost their flying enclave and were forced to flee back to the shadow plane, where a "shadow" of this enclave is still intact.
They are still a major threat to the Realms, but they do not have the ressources of the Zhentarim or the Cult of the Dragons. It worked very well, and brought them back to a satisfying level of power for me.
BTW, this was all before the Twilight War trilogy, which makes my version very far from canon now. At the time, I had only the Lord of Darkness sourcebook and the 3e FRCS |
Edited by - Kilvan on 31 Jan 2012 20:11:20 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 23:30:39
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I dunno. Telamont is more fond of using people than killing them off. He prefers manipulation to force, which must have been due to the influence of Princes Dethud and Melegaunt. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:12:50
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Yeah well, with the information I had at the time, it seemed like a plausible personality for him; very ambitous, ruthless and impatient, and demanding a lot of his sons. I also took into consideration that, as Ed mentionned a couple of times, nobody that old can be completely sane (I'm paraphrasing).
I'm not entirely happy with the way I did it after having read Paul's second trilogy (his Telamont is way cooler than mine), but I'm definately happy with the result in my campaign. No single organization, good or evil, should be that powerful in the Realms IMO. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:35:55
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I also remember Ed saying something along that line. Anyway, it's likely Telamont would kill a son or two. Besides, he already threatened Brennus if he would reveal Rivalen's matricide to his brothers. But killing off all of them? I think that sounds rather unlikely. Larloch's older than he, and arguably more insane, but he's never slaughtered his 60+ lich-servitors, who in Telamont's case, are comparable to his sons. He'd be badly crippled without them. However, I like your idea of bringing the empire down by starting an inside (rather than an outside) conflict.
For me, it's just a matter of balance. They might be the most powerful evil group in existence, but they aren't the only ones. Hence, Telamont is very keen in hiding his actions through the use of spies and dupes. He told Rivalen in Shadowstorm something like, "Stop the Shadowstorm before it catches the attention of Faerun's powerful." That's indication enough that he'd rather use subtle means than force in carrying out his plans. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Look for ways to connect the PC to the city to make use of assets without letting it take over. Like using the chosen and so forth.
That's exactly how I'd use Selunarra: as an indirect foil to Shade. Let them work against Shade by allying with goodly beings, and by using adventurers. And let their methodolgy include things trying to make alliances or get to Netherese artifacts before Shade even knows what's going on -- there's no need for direct conflict.
We do know some Selūnarrans have visited Toril. It could be that they're simply keeping themselves informed about events on the Prime Material. Or maybe they're advanced scouts preparing for the eventual return of the Enclave.
quote:
Quoting myself, from a few years ago:
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
The other possibility, of course, is to consider that, perhaps, with the current generation of inhabitants of Opus, the aasimar [descended from the natives of the enclave], that they have simply come to adopt a mindset similar to that of other celestial types. And are now, thus, less interested in Torilian matters -- instead focusing on events across the Gates of the Moon. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 05:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We do know some Selūnarrans have visited Toril. It could be that they're simply keeping themselves informed about events on the Prime Material. Or maybe they're advanced scouts preparing for the eventual return of the Enclave.
 Clearly, I've missed something. When did this happen? Better yet, titles for reference, please?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We do know some Selūnarrans have visited Toril. It could be that they're simply keeping themselves informed about events on the Prime Material. Or maybe they're advanced scouts preparing for the eventual return of the Enclave.
Clearly, I've missed something. When did this happen? Better yet, titles for reference, please?
I'm going from memory, but I think it came from the entry for Opus in Lost Empires of Faerūn.
I'll confirm this when I get home. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Bringing down the Princes of Shade
