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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  04:48:12  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Would you like to help create some Realmslore (i.e., the very purpose of Candlekeep)?

Would you like to be immortalized/eviscerated in fiction (probably both)?


Well in that case, this is the CONTEST for you!

A thought occurred to me to have a contest, crafting Realmslore in real time to stitch the divided pieces of the Realms back together. None of it is canonical, of course, though it certainly *could* end up that way--the point here is to demonstrate that the Realms *can* be brought back together into a single canon that serves everyone.

This grows out of my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" thread, which in turn reflects my thoughts on an all-inclusive Realms for 5e. Some of this is based on real design I know is going on, but much of it is just my opinion on how I think the Realms might be presented in the new edition. A vision of the Realms to bring everything and everyone together.

So without further ado:

Forgotten Realms Lore Reconciliation Contest

Inspired by my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" concept, I would like to put together ways in which the canon *connects* between 3e and 4e.

There are a lot of doubters who say it can't be done--that 4e represents such a huge departure from FR canon that bridging the gap is not possible. But I say thee NAY--we will determine such connections, and thereby prove the possibility of reconciling every era of the Realms, such as I'm hoping 5e will do.

Rules:

1) Give me a canon issue (i.e. destruction of Halruaa, do something with the Spellplague, etc.), and I will answer it in a way that I think *works,* bridges the gap between 3e and 4e, and is true to the Realms (and hope you do too!).

2) Give me some time to do it--I'm a busy guy and will only ADMIT DEFEAT when I'm really stumped, not because I don't have time.

3) If I'm stumped, you WIN the contest and get a CHARACTER OF YOUR VERY OWN(!) in a forthcoming Erik Scott de Bie FR novel (I mean, assuming there ARE more coming). The contest does, of course, keep going, and there can be multiple winners.

(Caveat: It is almost certain that your character will appear for at most one page and be horribly killed by the hero/villain, but hey, you're still in the book!)

4) Nothing I say here is actually canonical--it's just a hypothetical connection. Don't expect WotC to actually do any of these suggestions (though who knows?)

5) We're keeping this positive and fun. If you say certain key phrases, like "4e cannot be reconciled" or "reboot" or "retcon," you are automatically disqualified from the thread.

6) Anyone else (fans/authors/designers) can propose ideas as well--canonical questions or answers. This isn't just the Erik Scott de Bie show.

7) Sage, Wooly, and THO (and Ed, through her) have agreed to serve as judges regarding my answers. (Obligatory American Idol Reference: I think this makes Wooly, as seemingly the least 4e-"happy" of the bunch, Simon.)

Consider them like Dungeon Masters hearing the suggestion of one of their players, with the question put to them "could I use this lore in my game?" If they reject an answer, I (or whoever produced it) get a chance to come up with something else, or admit defeat.

The judges are themselves free to pose Realmslore challenges or offer solutions to advanced Realmslore issues.

8) Since I *am* a FR author and privy to certain info you are not, if I say "I can't talk about it" or "NDA," that counts as a non-challenge. For instance, "Do something about Mystra!" is clearly Ed's territory and covered under NDA. I would hesitate to advance a solution to something I know is currently being worked on. Same goes for my own books (though I'll gladly point out that I'm working on it). Please respect this restriction!

And . . . go!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  05:13:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Clarify, please Erik ...

These challenges are meant to unify the canon of all four major D&D editions, ie: not contradict key details from any of them?

[Edit]
FWIW, Wooly Simon is usually easy to win over with long sexy legs and cleverly-delivered sassy awe-struck compliments. Please forgive us, THO, for comparing you to Paula Abdul.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jan 2012 05:15:00
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  05:34:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's one...

Canon issue: the Sea of Fallen Stars. The FRCG tells us water levels dropped an average of 50 feet. It also tells us that part of the Sharksbane Wall is above water, and part of Myth Nantar is now above water.

But, from the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, we know that there's at least 300 feet of open water above Myth Nantar. And we can guesstimate approximately 80 feet of open water above the Sharksbane Wall.

So how does a 50' drop equal a drop of +300' in one area, and roughly a 100' drop in another?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  05:35:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Clarify, please Erik ...

These challenges are meant to unify the canon of all four major D&D editions, ie: not contradict key details from any of them?

[Edit]
FWIW, Wooly Simon is usually easy to win over with long sexy legs and cleverly-delivered sassy awe-struck compliments. Please forgive us, THO, for comparing you to Paula Abdul.




I'm a fan of long sexy legs, too, though I rarely get the awe-struck compliments.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  05:38:02  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry Erik, This is how I see you in my head whilst explaining this contest.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 20 Jan 2012 05:39:16
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  06:30:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well then, master Erik, I present to thee a small challenge to start this noble project:

Eladrin and elves. How and why are those in 4E so different (and simplified) compared to those in, say, 2E? I can provide some detailed examples of "conflicting" lore if you're lacking in pre-4E materials.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  06:41:32  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll start with something easy-ish... Hehe.

How would you elaborate on the historical development of Negarath in the period between 1376 DR and 1479 DR, given the re-establishment of the Shade Empire? You've said previously that the Shades haven't yet rediscovered it -- and that you have a very specific reason for leaving it hidden away from the returned Shadovar Netherese.

Can you provide a possible background [it doesn't necessarily have to be your canonical explanation {since it might be NDA}, but I'd be curious for any alternate takes on this that you may have] for this history gap in the century between what we last saw of Negarath in 3e, and what little we know about the fallen enclave in 4e?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  08:07:33  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guallidurth, the drow city under Calimsham once had 200 noble houses and all were eradicated except for 21 houses. If Menzoberranzan has between 50 and 60 noble houses and a population of 20k drow, we could guess that Guallidurth held almost 80 thousand dark elves. This would mean the city's 4E population of 16,000 killed over 64,000 drow? Wouldn't huge swaths of the city be in ruins?
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  08:09:46  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Sorry Erik, This is how I see you in my head whilst explaining this contest.


Thanks for sending diet sprite up my nose! LOL!

So hang on, if we come up with the "problem" and the solution... and Erik and the other judges think it's an excellent "solve", does that count as a win for the contest?


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 20 Jan 2012 08:11:04
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  08:17:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gotta sign Erik's diabolical contract and play by his rules to find out, I think.

[/Ayrik]
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  09:18:00  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To Erik

This is probably an idiotic one but:

What happened too the gnomish noses and the hins weight problem somewhere around 1370?

Problems absolutely caused more by rule-changes than lore products, but it would be fun to see your take on it.
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Drakul
Senior Scribe

USA
367 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  11:10:21  Show Profile Send Drakul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Canon Issue: While we have the Wyrmshadow WE, not much is truly known about the Jaezred Chaulssin. Is is possible for you to elaborate on their agents, strongholds and perhaps back-stories/history??

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber
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Super Wizard
Acolyte

31 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  12:56:48  Show Profile Send Super Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's one...

Canon issue: the Sea of Fallen Stars. The FRCG tells us water levels dropped an average of 50 feet. It also tells us that part of the Sharksbane Wall is above water, and part of Myth Nantar is now above water.

But, from the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, we know that there's at least 300 feet of open water above Myth Nantar. And we can guesstimate approximately 80 feet of open water above the Sharksbane Wall.

So how does a 50' drop equal a drop of +300' in one area, and roughly a 100' drop in another?



Is it possible that the area above the Sharksbane Wall and Myth Nantar is significantly less than the area above the entire Sea of Fallen Stars?

Unstoppably Awesome to the Max
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe

Germany
196 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  13:24:39  Show Profile  Visit Lirdolin's Homepage Send Lirdolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, let's see:

1) Why did, out of the 3-4 (if counting vanished Nimbral)high magic-user realms, only Halruaa go ka-bloom and the other didn't? What did Thay and Netheril do, not only to not go ka-bloom (Shade falling out of the sky like in the good old days), but actually grow in power?
(Won't ask you to rebuilt Halruaa, because you seem to be on your way of doing that anyway.)

2) Return the Crinti to Dambrath (I have my own idea, but would like to see you do it first ) Their removel was imo a loss because Dambrath as a Crinti Realm had a unique flavor and in 4e they had to make room for a land of 'shifter' barbarians. I won't ask for a total removel of the shifters but for a return of the loviatar-lolth worshiping half-drow to their holdings.

3) Return Eilistraee (preferably as the Masked Lady). Her divine spirit and that of Qilue were, according to the novel, destroyed by the Cresent Blade, and that Eilistraee would no longer be needed because 'all the willing were saved' but as far as i can see there still are drow disatisfied with Lolths rule.

4)Unrevel the Mystery of Angharradh. Now Queen of Arvandor,formerly the Triune Goddess, the elven goddesses she was formed from are only aspects of two other goddesses and one primordial. (Well maybe in 4e Corellon doesn't look that androgynous anymore? )
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Drakul
Senior Scribe

USA
367 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  13:29:25  Show Profile Send Drakul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

Ok, let's see:

1) Why did, out of the 3-4 (if counting vanished Nimbral)high magic-user realms, only Halruaa go ka-bloom and the other didn't? What did Thay and Netheril do, not only to not go ka-bloom (Shade falling out of the sky like in the good old days), but actually grow in power?
(Won't ask you to rebuilt Halruaa, because you seem to be on your way of doing that anyway.)

2) Return the Crinti to Dambrath (I have my own idea, but would like to see you do it first ) Their removel was imo a loss because Dambrath as a Crinti Realm had a unique flavor and in 4e they had to make room for a land of 'shifter' barbarians. I won't ask for a total removel of the shifters but for a return of the loviatar-lolth worshiping half-drow to their holdings.

3) Return Eilistraee (preferably as the Masked Lady). Her divine spirit and that of Qilue were, according to the novel, destroyed by the Cresent Blade, and that Eilistraee would no longer be needed because 'all the willing were saved' but as far as i can see there still are drow disatisfied with Lolths rule.

4)Unrevel the Mystery of Angharradh. Now Queen of Arvandor,formerly the Triune Goddess, the elven goddesses she was formed from are only aspects of two other goddesses and one primordial. (Well maybe in 4e Corellon doesn't look that androgynous anymore? )



Bring back Vhaeraun. Leave Eilistraee as she is.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  13:58:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Sorry Erik, This is how I see you in my head whilst explaining this contest.


At least Azzy looks majestic in that picture!

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  14:07:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Why was Halruaa destroyed?

How did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?

Every beginning has an end.
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe

Germany
196 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  14:36:47  Show Profile  Visit Lirdolin's Homepage Send Lirdolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Why was Halruaa destroyed?

How did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?


Beat you to that question ;)
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  14:56:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Why was Halruaa destroyed?

How did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?


Beat you to that question ;)


I didn't read your post before I made mine.

You mentioned Thay. Actually, it was devastated. It's [somewhat] detailed in The Haunted Lands. Castles and random landmass were uprooted from the ground and held afloat by the chaotic magic brought by the Spellplague.

Every beginning has an end.
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
317 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:09:58  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very well Mr. de Bie, as you have requested three things here they are. Please do bear in mind that these are by no means my only problems with the 4e Realms.

1. The 100 year time-jump. At a stroke most of the current lore and NPCs for the 1380s became irrelevant.
2. The Spellplague itself. It behaved in a self-inconsistent manner; destroying and changing parts of the Realms beyond recognition and leaving the Ďpopularí areas like Cormyr and the Sword Coast alone.
3. The partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars which didnít either; flood enormous parts of the Underdark, or cause drastic climatic change in surrounding lands particularly Cormyr, Sembia and the Dalelands.

Thank you for trying to reconcile the problems some of us have with 4e Realms but you really donít need to bother for me. As I said, I am quite content to have the 4e Realms continue as it is. I just donít want to be a part of it.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:12:33  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some clarifications, not answers!

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Clarify, please Erik ...
These challenges are meant to unify the canon of all four major D&D editions, ie: not contradict key details from any of them?
Most of the focus is on bridging the gap between 3e and 4e, but yes, questions and answers might go back as far as 2e. They are meant either to:

1) Fill in key gaps that make seemingly contradictory Realmslore "line up," such as "Why are there so many tieflings in the Realms when there weren't before?"

or

2) Propose a solution that will address a widely-perceived flaw in the setting that is not actually contradictory to "canon" but only to the "spirit" of the Realms, such as "Why did Halruaa blow up in the Spellplague?"

Both of these are potential solutions to the sorts of issues that should be raised in this thread. I'm doing both things, though I prefer to go with option #1 in order to make things fluid.

quote:
FWIW, Wooly Simon is usually easy to win over with long sexy legs and cleverly-delivered sassy awe-struck compliments. Please forgive us, THO, for comparing you to Paula Abdul.
Well, I didn't say it.

But we all know THO has got it going on in the legs, sass, and compliment department.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I can provide some detailed examples of "conflicting" lore if you're lacking in pre-4E materials.
Detailed examples are always appreciated. I do have pretty much all of the 3e and 4e materials (we're talking 85%) as well as *some* 2e stuff (which was where I started my gaming career, though it predates when I gained my first level of Loremaster). When push comes to shove, I *do* live about five miles from Brian R. James and his extensive collection, however.

And though this doesn't address any of the above, here's an added note: I will occasionally make reference to what I perceive to be the mechanical/developmental reason why something happened. Have no fear--my MAIN FOCUS should be on the lore/flavor, not the mechanics/crunch.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 20 Jan 2012 15:14:13
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:19:31  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, here is one that has been eating at me for a long time: Please make sense of the Tymora + Tyr betrothal / Helms recreation of Roxanne / and the subsequent murder of Helm by Tyr. A CG goddess marrying a LG god is unlikely. The two alignments often clash (sometimes violently), even when working toward the same goal (Thornhold is a good example of such clashing).

(This one should also be easy for you since you have already put a lot of thought into it.)

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:24:39  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First one!

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Canon issue: the Sea of Fallen Stars. The FRCG tells us water levels dropped an average of 50 feet. It also tells us that part of the Sharksbane Wall is above water, and part of Myth Nantar is now above water.
But, from the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, we know that there's at least 300 feet of open water above Myth Nantar. And we can guesstimate approximately 80 feet of open water above the Sharksbane Wall.
So how does a 50' drop equal a drop of +300' in one area, and roughly a 100' drop in another?
The key word here is *average.* Coupled with the seismic activity ushered in by the Spellplague, sections of Myth Nantar rose on what became small mountains partly under, partly over the sea. Very little of the city is actually exposed--the majority still rests comfortably beneath the waves, some 50-150 feet down. I think of it as similar to Athens with the water level risen to just below the big hills that feature the Acropolis and some of the higher temples.

In the long decades since the change, the people of the mostly submerged city have adjusted, and Myth Nantar has even seen an increase in worship of Sehanine Moonbow (yes, I said it*), who conduct their rituals atop the wind-swept peaks above the waves.

The Sharksbane Wall underwent similar seismic changes, and now varies from substantially beneath the water to standing a little over its surface. Sailors have to take particular care around the wall, and not just to avoid the above-water section--long stretches of the wall lie only just below the surface, and many a ship has ground to a halt on the wall's unforgiving stone.

EDIT: Corollary to the same subject:

quote:
Originally posted by arry

3. The partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars which didnít either; flood enormous parts of the Underdark, or cause drastic climatic change in surrounding lands particularly Cormyr, Sembia and the Dalelands.
Well, it DID cause tremendous flooding in the Underdark, establishing a vast underground sea (apologies, I'm away from my books at the moment).

We don't know the exact scope of the sea draining--I would suggest that it wasn't nearly as cataclysmic as we might at first believe. Remember, we're looking at the change over a hundred years in the space of a few sentences. The seismic activity I mentioned above (triggered by the Spellplague) could very well have opened up small or substantial cracks in the floor of the Sea of Fallen Stars, allowing the water to trickle down, rather than gush. Remember, it's got a LONG way to go (I believe several miles) before it gets to the caverns of the Underdark), and it would have to be some pretty serious cracking that goes on in order to carve out passages for the water to drain down.

I picture the initial Spellplague-related seismic activity having started the cracks, and the sheer weight of the sea bore down, gradually eroding the protective earth, until it could seep down into the Underdark, where it continues to fall/drizzle down, forming a great undersea lake over the course of a century. We're told in the lore that the Sea of Fallen Stars has more or less stabilized, so maybe the water level has reached the same level as the cracks, so more water isn't flowing down. It's like the overflow hole in your sink: once the water drops below it, it stops leaking.

But let's speculate: Even if it WAS more cataclysmic, and the Spellplague tore a straight-up GOUGE in the floor of the Sea of Fallen Stars all the way down to the Underdark, then I imagine what kept it from flooding MORE (i.e. the entire Sea of Fallen Stars draining into the Underdark or at least enough to fill it up) was the same seismic activity I discussed above (sealing off the caverns even as they were being filled up) and/or a concerted effort by the denizens of the Underdark to seal off their caverns/living spaces with magic or other means in order to ensure their survival. Basically, desperate attempts to containing the vast cave-in.

One explanation is more realistic (the gradual seepage) while one is more fantastic (the epic struggle to fix a major disaster).

As for drastic climate change (or lack thereof), well, I'm not a climatologist, so I can't really give you a scientific explanation. This IS a fantasy world, though, so I think that certain things don't require too much fantasy. Maybe a long ago blessing from a forgotten god does the trick, or maybe the various gods of the Dales/Cormyr shield their flock from the worst of the changing climate. Or maybe the climate HAS changed in your game, and agriculture has shifted to accomodate it. (I personally prefer seeing Sembia become a barren place less welcoming to crops, where Chauntea's influence wanes; IMO it fits with their oppression by the Shades.)

I find that bringing too much scientific inquiry into a fantasy setting just opens a huge can of worms that binds us all up into a downward spiral of logic and doesn't leave much space to enjoy the setting.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 20 Jan 2012 16:49:06
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:34:29  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?


Maybe Shar knowing what was about to come instructed the shades on how to change their Mythallar so it gets its energy from raw magic instead of the (shadow)weave.
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Dennis
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:43:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?


Maybe Shar knowing what was about to come instructed the shades on how to change their Mythallar so it gets its energy from raw magic instead of the (shadow)weave.


She herself didn't know the Spellplague would also destroy her new toy (the Shadow Weave).

Every beginning has an end.
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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:54:28  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We don't know. It could also have been a precaution because somehing like this might happen.
Imho loosing the shadow weave for getting rid of mystra was a small price for her
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Apex
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  15:58:59  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How about addressing the map shrinkage between 2nd and 3rd edition. Somehow, Faerun shrunk sometime in the 1370s, yet no one seemed to notice.
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Apex
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  16:17:02  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

Ok, let's see:

3) Return Eilistraee (preferably as the Masked Lady). Her divine spirit and that of Qilue were, according to the novel, destroyed by the Cresent Blade, and that Eilistraee would no longer be needed because 'all the willing were saved' but as far as i can see there still are drow disatisfied with Lolths rule.



I was never a fan of Good Drow, let alone good aligned Drow gods. It seemed to me as nothing more than a way to encourage players to "be Drizzit" and hard to justify by number of worshippers. Drow are evil, the rare exception is ok, but shouldn't be the norm by any means.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  16:29:13  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Well then, master Erik, I present to thee a small challenge to start this noble project:
Eladrin and elves. How and why are those in 4E so different (and simplified) compared to those in, say, 2E? I can provide some detailed examples of "conflicting" lore if you're lacking in pre-4E materials.
I'm not sure you would consider 2e and 3e elves to be all that different (resistance to charm, skill with swords/bows, etc), so I shall answer as to why 3e elves and 4e elves (including eladrin) are "so different." Acceptable? (If, after reading my answer I haven't addressed something from 2e, please rephrase your question to include concrete variations.)

Mechanically speaking: I think the designers saw the many subraces of elves and decided (not entirely incorrectly) that it was too much headache to keep all those things straight. Not only would you have a race for you character, but you'd have multiple *changes* to that race, rather than add-ons to refine your race (i.e. sub-race feats). (Note that they have since gone back on this decision, with the return of sub-races in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.)

Also--and I think this is important to note--though the subraces thing was obviously somewhat complicated, the designers considered this *important enough* to warrant having elven subraces in the CORE MATERIALS. This is an example of an idea from FR (multiple kinds of elves) bleeding into the core setting. (Though I suppose technically, Tolkien came up with the idea first, but who's keeping score?)

I also hold that the "eladrin" of 4e basically ARE the "eladrin" of 3e, albeit 4e allows you to play a low-level version of an eladrin. A full blooded 3e eladrin would be at least paragon if not epic tier, in terms of 4e mechanics (as borne out in the various monster statblocks). This suggests that high elves (i.e. moon and sun elves) can BECOME the eladrin lords that we saw in 3e (for which there are paragon and epic paths in 4e). That's the mechanical continuity.

Flavor-wise: All sub-races of elves (including drow) share a common ancestor, as do the eladrin of 3e. I don't have a name for these creatures (I call them *the fey*), but they are what gave rise to the multiple races of fey creatures we know today. The Seldarine and the various Archfey are all either members of this race or have strong heritage from it.

As we know, the elves of Faerun departed the realm of Faerie (now called the Feywild) long, long ago, and settled in Faerun. Over many centuries, they gradually evolved (or were magically altered) into the different subraces. (The mechanics aren't terribly relevant here--we're mostly talking about culture, outlook/personality, and society.) It is my supposition that time away from the magics of the Feywild exercised a "mundane-ing" effect on the elves, changing them from their once more mystical selves into creatures more fit to survive in this mortal world. (Incidentally, this is also how I explain the difference between "elves" and "eladrin" in the core 4e books.)

In the late 14th century DR, when the worlds collided and the barriers between the various planes (primes like Faerun and Abeir, other dimensions like the Feywild/Faerie and the Shadowfell/plane of shadow) frayed under the onslaught of the Spellplague (at least in Realmspace), elves were once again exposed to the radiations of the Feywild on a wide scale. This is particularly true of the elves dwelling in Evermeet, which vanished into the Feywild entirely. Over time, this had a series of strange and wondrous effects on them, granting them fey powers and altering their physiology.

There were already (from 3e lore) eladrin dwelling in the Feywild--that didn't change going into 4e. They were just now joined by high elves (moon and sun elves) from the mortal world.* It isn't too much of a stretch to believe that the Feywild energies made them more like their ancestors--they *became* eladrin, at least in a sense. Or at least they have the potential to achieve the same levels of power of the pre-existing eladrin.

(*Two story concepts here: In those early days of Evermeet's return to the Feywild, would the high elves and eladrin come into conflict over "racial purity"? Also, what happened to wood or wild elves caught in the city? Did they become "eladriny" too?)

As for "high elves" still caught in Faerun: They were more like their ancestors than the "low elves" (wood elves, wild elves, etc), so they absorbed some of the Feywild's power too. I would suggest that not all high elves are mechanically eladrin (if you want to play a high elf with the 4e "elf" mechanics)--it depends on how much exposure they got to the Feywild and its magic. This ranges from whether they developed hallmark "eladrin" abilities, such as fey step, to whether they have the solid-colored eyes (some moon/sun elves have them, some don't).

The feywild also had influence on low-elves (wood elves and wild elves), enhancing their forest-based aspects. You see, "elves" in 4e had also evolved in the Feywild, into sleek, primal hunting beasts in the shapes of humanoids. The mortal "elves" in Faerun got a little of that themselves, losing some of their arcane sensibilities (the proof against charm, for instance) in favor of more natural/primal sorts of powers.

As a side-note, one of my characters--Ilira Nathalan, known to 3e aficionados by her adventuring name, Fox-at-Twilight--is a moon elf who is considered an "eladrin" under 4e mechanics. She has solid gold eyes (though these may not be a function of Feywild exposure--ahem!) but does NOT have the ability to Fey Step. Instead, she shadow-dances--having the same mechanical ability (a short range teleport) with an entirely different flavor (teleporting through the shadows).

There is obviously some debate still to be had over whether 3e eladrin and 4e eladrin are functionally the same thing, but I think 4e's mechanical system allows them to be. That is, you can build what is recognizable as a 3e eladrin with 4e mechanics. And IMO, the supposition that eladrin and elves are related (share a common ancestry) is not all that big a stretch.

So there we have it: what I think is a sound explanation for the mechanical differentiation of elves and eladrin in 4e, and why the word "eladrin" is used in 4e at all: it still refers to the same thing, only in 4e, eladrin can ALSO be used to refer to creatures that used to be strictly elves but now are something a bit more.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 20 Jan 2012 17:15:50
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  16:56:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A quick one!

quote:
Originally posted by Apex

How about addressing the map shrinkage between 2nd and 3rd edition. Somehow, Faerun shrunk sometime in the 1370s, yet no one seemed to notice.
All maps are imperfect, be they of our own world, and particularly of fantasy worlds. If you want to be strict about your maps, we should go back to Ed's original FR map, which was the size of a small room when put together (from about a hundred sheets of printer paper), upon which Icewind Dale was a curved line on the far upper-left corner.

The 4e map (which I'm not going to try and defend, no more than I would any other map of the Realms) reflects our understanding of the shape of Faerun at that particular snapshot in time: 1479. There were changes to the surface of the Realms between 3e and 4e--the Spellplague caused some serious seismic activity and juxtaposed a few particularly forgotten realms into a few places. This is not to say that the map is necessarily accurate--it is primarily useful as a tool for adventurers in the 4e FR (which is exactly its purpose).

I see it as a map 1479 adventurers would be carrying around, though they might very well come across older maps in sealed scrolls on long-since-turned-to-dust corpses in ancient tombs, depicting the Realms in a far different aspect. And no doubt those adventurers who fail their History checks would look at those maps with just as much perplexity as we--familiar with 2e or 3e maps--might look at their map.

No map is meant to be DEFINITIVE. As we all know, it's more about the content of the world than its structure.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  17:11:23  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahem, IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN MY 4e FR GAME, LOOK AWAY NOW!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Apex

quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

Ok, let's see:
3) Return Eilistraee (preferably as the Masked Lady). Her divine spirit and that of Qilue were, according to the novel, destroyed by the Cresent Blade, and that Eilistraee would no longer be needed because 'all the willing were saved' but as far as i can see there still are drow disatisfied with Lolths rule.
I was never a fan of Good Drow, let alone good aligned Drow gods. It seemed to me as nothing more than a way to encourage players to "be Drizzit" and hard to justify by number of worshippers. Drow are evil, the rare exception is ok, but shouldn't be the norm by any means.
This topic skirts NDA territory, so I don't want to discuss it in too much detail. Suffice it to say, some of these issues are being addressed--and in a way that I at least find pleasing.

Tangentially, I will say that I am currently running a 4e FR game wherein one of the long term goals is indeed the return of Eilistraee. Though she doesn't know it, one of the PCs (a half-sun-elf/half-drow, mechanically an elf) is actually the reincarnation of Eilistraee. One of the main antagonists in the campaign is a drow who houses the spirit of Vhaeraun--he has embraced his heritage/power and seeks to bring his *spiritual sister* into the fold as well. Together, he thinks, they will gather enough power to avenge themselves on their wretched mother, Lolth--ostensibly to take her place. But will the PC (an invoker/wizard sworn to Corellon, with whom she has a close, personal, almost father/daughter relationship) side with her mad "brother" (whose goals sort of coincide with Corellon's, actually--in bringing Lolth down at least), or find a different path?

This may or may not have anything to do with the actual design in development. As I've said numerous times before, the *second* you start playing a home Realms game, it diverges from canon. My game certainly does.

I would suggest that if Eilistraee or Vhaeraun or any other slain god is really important to you, run a game in which you bring 'em back. 4e's "temporary" slaying of deities provides just that opportunity.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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