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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 18:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So why is that so hard to ask of other fans who don't enjoy the Spellplague. If you were to completly consider the whole thing non-existant or an alternate timeline and your campaign is still set in pre-1385....what does it change? Really, what is the problem here? Those events won't happen for you or your group. You can change whatever you like AND you can still benefit from aspects of the "Future" IF they spark your fancy AND it's canon IF that's something you like adhering to every once in a while.
It's been pointed out that Spellplague fans could do the same thing, if the setting was rolled back to pre-Spellplague times. And though I've not seen any reaction to that, I'd imagine it's the same one: because we want the Realms we love to be supported, and we don't want to be left out in the cold trying to build everything from scratch. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 18:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been pointed out that Spellplague fans could do the same thing, if the setting was rolled back to pre-Spellplague times. And though I've not seen any reaction to that, I'd imagine it's the same one: because we want the Realms we love to be supported, and we don't want to be left out in the cold trying to build everything from scratch.
I can appreciate the sentiment for wanting the pre-Spellplague era to be supported. I'd like to see a Cormyr sourcebook set dead center between the current era and the previous one, that focuses on the war with Sembia.
However I don't have much sympathy for any long-time Realms fan who feels left out in the cold, given that such people have on average a small mountain of sourcebooks for the time period immediately preceding the Spellplague.
I think your average gamer/novel reader who plays in the post-Spellplague Realms doesn't care one whit whether new products cover the pre-Spellplague time period. We have only three sourcebooks and--for those of us with subscriptions--a small pile of DDI articles to use. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 08 Feb 2012 18:55:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been pointed out that Spellplague fans could do the same thing, if the setting was rolled back to pre-Spellplague times. And though I've not seen any reaction to that, I'd imagine it's the same one: because we want the Realms we love to be supported, and we don't want to be left out in the cold trying to build everything from scratch.
I can appreciate the sentiment for wanting the pre-Spellplague era to be supported. I'd like to see a Cormyr sourcebook set dead center between the current era and the previous one, that focuses on the war with Sembia.
However I don't have much sympathy for any long-time Realms fan who feels left out in the cold, given that such people have on average a small mountain of sourcebooks for the time period immediately preceding the Spellplague.
I think your average gamer/novel reader who plays in the post-Spellplague Realms doesn't care one whit whether new products cover the pre-Spellplague time period. We have only three sourcebooks and--for those of us with subscriptions--a small pile of DDI articles to use.
We're left out in the cold because our era is no longer supported, in any way. 4E fans have the more recent sourcebooks, and they're getting new novels and new DDI articles. Pre-4E fans who do not embrace the changes get nothing at all. Yeah, we've got everything that came before, but that puts us back in the place of building everything new ourselves -- so we cannot be surprised by any new Realmslore. Ed himself said that an advantage of selling the setting to TSR was that it allowed him to be surprised. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been pointed out that Spellplague fans could do the same thing, if the setting was rolled back to pre-Spellplague times. And though I've not seen any reaction to that, I'd imagine it's the same one: because we want the Realms we love to be supported, and we don't want to be left out in the cold trying to build everything from scratch.
I can appreciate the sentiment for wanting the pre-Spellplague era to be supported. I'd like to see a Cormyr sourcebook set dead center between the current era and the previous one, that focuses on the war with Sembia.
However I don't have much sympathy for any long-time Realms fan who feels left out in the cold, given that such people have on average a small mountain of sourcebooks for the time period immediately preceding the Spellplague.
I think your average gamer/novel reader who plays in the post-Spellplague Realms doesn't care one whit whether new products cover the pre-Spellplague time period. We have only three sourcebooks and--for those of us with subscriptions--a small pile of DDI articles to use.
While I recognize your point that we do have a small forest of Pre-Spellplague books and game supplements, I honestly disagree with you here. As fan who began as a Realms novel enthusiast, the Spellplague combined with the time jump has left me rather dry as to new material to read until recently, when the emotional wounds caused to me by the 4e Realms team (Ed excluded) finally healed (through 4 years of self-healing; WotC did nothing to help heal my Realms-related wounds) and I picked up the eBook versions of Downshadow and Shadowbane. And this I mainly did to support Erik, not because I was or am enthusiastic about the 4e Realms. I still want new novels about Danilo & Arilyn, the Steel Regent, Danica & Cadderly's children, Bruenor Battlehammer, and other characters that I grew to love for a decade (not as long as some, I know, but a fair amount of time spent investing in characters). And this wasn't even because of the time jump in the campaign setting, but because of the directive from above that novels could only take place in the 4e era. This is a fracture in the fanbase (not you necessarily, but many) inflicted solely by WotC. That is why with the next iteration of the Realms it should focus on all eras (many of them only hinted at in the GHotR) for both the novels and the game supplements. Because the fanbase itself needs to be made whole again (there will always be dissenters, but if they can present something that caters to 80+% of the fanbase (rather than trying to create a new fan base and hoping to grab a few people like you who continued with the changes that they did with the 4e Realms), then I think that that will have accomplished probably the best possible outcome. That is also why I want them to hire Ed as the lead designer of the 5e Realms (instead of hiring him after the fact to design a new area that will not be further supported just because the hard core FR fans cried out because he was not attached to the project) because I believe he can deliver something that will appease the most fans. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been pointed out that Spellplague fans could do the same thing, if the setting was rolled back to pre-Spellplague times. And though I've not seen any reaction to that, I'd imagine it's the same one: because we want the Realms we love to be supported, and we don't want to be left out in the cold trying to build everything from scratch.
I can appreciate the sentiment for wanting the pre-Spellplague era to be supported. I'd like to see a Cormyr sourcebook set dead center between the current era and the previous one, that focuses on the war with Sembia.
However I don't have much sympathy for any long-time Realms fan who feels left out in the cold, given that such people have on average a small mountain of sourcebooks for the time period immediately preceding the Spellplague.
I think your average gamer/novel reader who plays in the post-Spellplague Realms doesn't care one whit whether new products cover the pre-Spellplague time period. We have only three sourcebooks and--for those of us with subscriptions--a small pile of DDI articles to use.
Put it this way:
You have no sympathy for those that contributed their patronage to the old realms and invested a lot of money into it, which allowed for the realms YOU like.
You would not have the realms YOU like if not for the ones that invested in it before (and by invest I do not mean donated money directly, I mean took the time to buy, read, and enjoy, so that it is the fully supported realms it is today.) Clearly WOTC sees their mistake in leaving the pre plaguerealms out in the cold.
Why should a fan of pre plague realms have sympathy for a current realms fan that has only invested in 3 books? Who does not know the realms like they should?
You see this very sentiment you portray here is contrary to your thread "Sorry, we are all realms fans." The sentiment you describe above is a very us vs them mentality.
At least some of the older fans are honest and upfront about it, it seems more and more I read of your posts, you are just trying to ignite the divide. The sentiment above certainly identifies you as being in one camp or the other.
I have been softening up to the 4e realms after I have explored them. What I will not soften up to is the intellectual laziness of someone that complains the lore of the realms is too hard.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 08 Feb 2012 20:02:31 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:09:15
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| Ed was involved. He wasn't happy about the Spellplague either. |
Edited by - arry on 08 Feb 2012 20:10:43 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
You have no sympathy for those that contributed their patronage to the old realms and invested a lot of money into it, which allowed for the realms YOU like.
Mournblade, I'm not interested in fighting with you.
Please don't try to start a fight with me by putting words in my mouth that I never said.
I've already made clear I enjoy the Realms in its entirety, pre- and post-Spellplague.
You've taken a statement of mine out of context and used it to jump down my throat, and I really don't appreciate it.
If you'd like to discuss this by PM, I'm all ears.
If not, then please leave me alone.
Fair enough. I withdraw the comment about intellectual laziness. As for the rest, I merely showed a way words could be interpreted not what was exactly said.
When one touts that they are trying to unify a fanbase, they should be sure their remarks are not divisive.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:27:53
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| A Sembia sourcebook would be cool. Maybe Ed could sneak a chapter in there that deals extensively with trade and how to run caravans and what goods are worth and where they are shipped etc. :) |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1294 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:28:07
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quote:
Ed was involved. He wasn't happy about the Spellplague either.
From speaking at a book signing in Toronto for Guantlgrym, I can tell you that neither Ed nor Bob Salvatore were happy about the Spellplague as conveyed to that audience. But what fan of the Realms as they were would be? It was designed to appeal to those that detested the Realms, not the fans. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:29:58
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To all, please do not fight in my thread. We're trying to be civil and inclusive here (read the OP), not divisive and argumentative. If you need to cool off, there are plenty of other threads to hang out in, and come back here once you've worked out the antagonism.
The purpose of this thread is finding an avenue of products that will support EVERYONE (or at least as many people as much as possible).
As regards the 4e FR "not having anything for pre-4e fans," everything I have created for 4e (novels, sourcebooks, DDI articles) have been steeped in 3e, and you can apply (with only tiny tweaks) to a 3e game.
We all realize that the setting needs to change and new things need to come out to keep the Realms viable. And inevitably, stuff is going to come out that you don't like. Obviously, 4e FR went too far--let's figure out a path forward that does NOT go too far, and pleases fans of all eras.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:45:22
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| I apologize, Erik. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:51:13
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| The next campaign guide should have some sweet adventure hooks like the old grey box system, though I guess 3E did this a bit too. Reading stuff like: "Barroch's Hold has been found. The fabled citadel of the first great bandit lord of the Inner Seas" or "Rumors abound in Suzail that someone in the city has a map revealing the location of the lost gem-hoard of the Great Worm Draughthothnor". Stuff like that are the nuggets of lore that make the Realms so epic. I'll have to read through the 3E campaign guide more, but the grey box set is what sticks in my head for rumors and current clack. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 22:10:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Spellplague as a footnote. That's the ticket.
The push for 4e talked too much about the Spellplague, IMO. The design philosophy seemed to be that that was the "cool thing" that everyone would want to read about, but it wasn't. So design going forward should focus on the aspects of the setting that *are* the cool things everyone wants to read about--things that have persisted for thirty years and made the setting magical.
Cheers
This is the best choice given the, thus far, apparent stance of WotC.
I've realized by now, I'm never going to get even close to what I want regarding the Realms for 5E. Numerous fans stated their dislike for the 4E REalms right on their official forums before and during the transition and it amounted to not even a minor alteration to lessen the impact or any improvement in the tone and coverage until recently.
This is the only option that remotely makes all the 4E and 5E lore appeal even an iota to me.
WotC gave the Forgotten two things for 4E, the first was a dose of fast acting poison. Barring an antidote, which WotC is not willing to provide, the poison can be diluted to cause less harm (hopefully). The damage is done unfortunately. They are lucky the Realms were resilient enough to withstand it somewhat. They are also working fast, five to six years. Every year that passes is an added distance between the old fans and the setting. It may even be too late, but we'll see.
The second item bestowed on the setting was an apple, which can only be consumed after it rots. All fans were allowed to do during the in-game century was watch* that apple rot. The rotten apple can be planted, the bad parts dissolved and worked into the new life that springs.
*Actually it was a bit more Schrodinger's than that. They were not allowed to see at all. They were told "guess what?" and WotC pulled out the dead setting from the chamber. I guess WotC's pulled that trick so readily it opened the precedent for fans to think they could just as easily do an encore for 5E, but this time reach into the universe where the setting is pulled from the chamber unmarred.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:59:56
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I had a response here - not overly long, at least not for me - but then I decided to respect Erik's wishes. Then I pasted the entire thing into a new thread... and thought twice about it (read my sig).
However, I "saved it for posterity".... I will wait until 5e is released. No need to chase shadows. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
A Sembia sourcebook would be cool. Maybe Ed could sneak a chapter in there that deals extensively with trade and how to run caravans and what goods are worth and where they are shipped etc. :)
In the early days, when Sembia was largely left as an area for DM's to individually develop, this would have been difficult.
But with Paul Kemp's extensive focus and elaboration on the region, along with many of the later 3e and now 4e developments for Sembia, I would welcome such a source. If only because it would provide me with an opportunity to now keep most of the lore on Sembia, in order.  |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:56:46
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The general consensus seems to be 'another time jump' (at least among the professors at Wizbro). Okay, fine. While Wizbro has once again proven that they don't 'get it' (and I really wasn't expecting anything to the contrary, to be honest), let's take the hand we are dealt, and try to get at least a full house, because lovers of lore should be cognizant that we will never have a royal flush. The printed works can be separate or all-in-one, but need to include (titles are negotiable, but the contents should not be):
Something like Lost Lore: This is a work that details the years from 1385 DR to the present day, and it tells us what happened, why it happened, and how it has affected the Realms of the present day.
A book/section called An Atlas of Toril: Map the freaking planet already, Wizbro. Anchorome, Osse, all of it. Like you did on Page 231, 3rd Edition, but this time like you actually mean it. A few pages for each. Have Ed do this, please, or at least give him final say - let's minimize the damage you've already done. If you owe us absolutely nothing else, you owe us this.
Something like Shadows of the Past: That's right, start repairing the damage you did. Some things can't be changed - fine. Mulhorand and Unther needed to be sacrificed to shoehorn your pet projects in, we get that. Maztica (or a majority of it) is gone because some professor didn't like it, fine, we get that. What else made any sense? Nothing. Bring it back. Halruaa, the Vilhon, Zhentil Keep, the Chosen, the stupidly-slaughtered gods, absolutely all of it. Let the Greenwoods and the James and die Bies do this, because they, unlike you, can be trusted not to screw it up.
Move forward? Fine, Wizbro. Just move forward without causing another disaster like you did last time. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:25:01
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But will that be good enough? If 4e was a mistake, then wouldn't 4e 2.0 be a worse mistake? I still contend it was the timejump itself that caused the rift, not the lore or the rules.
Just erased another micro-rant.
This is getting harder, not easier. I guess what I am saying is that a setting is much more then a name, and thats all FR has left now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 07:32:34
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No I think if they did another time jump it may make it worst...... unless they only do it by a few years and by that no more than 5 years.......
but then like Markustay.. I too think the 100 year timejump created the rift.....( and the cop out via use a time portal or other means to bring characters forward and the just use the older material comments didnt help either......., thats just me though.....)
goes off to join the Order of Vangey......... |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 11:39:50
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first, i confess that i just found this thread and i haven't read all 11 pages... i'm just responding to the last couple of posts and the issue of moving the time frame forward. it's not my intention to bulldoze anyone else's points, i undoubtedly agree with a lot of them... except about Mulhorand and Unther needing to be sacrificed... it was not at all necessary, but i spose my feelings on that point are unique and irrelevant to everyone else except perhaps Scott Bennie and Ed himself. these are just my thoughts, hopefully of slight relevance.
every advancement of the timeline has been, in my opinion, unncessary. there's been a lot of little 1 and 2 year incremental pushes. we started in 1357, but then some books had a "present time" of 1359, others 1361, then 1365, 1367, 1372, they just kept moving. and most didn't specify the year in the first paragraph like they should have.
why did we move forward from 1357? no, really, why is it necessary to advance the timeline?
once we jumped from 1357 to 1365, we never got to see the rest of the world. we restarted with Cormyr and the Dales, and got updated stat blocks for everybody we'd already learned about. again in the jump to 1372. let's not do that again. because as cool as Cormyr is, i'm really sick of hearing about it... not because there's anything wrong with Cormyr, but because i've heard quite a lot about it, and Nothing about other areas of the Realms. entire continents have gone untouched. campaign settings which have been abandoned have been set on the other continents of Toril... which seems to guarantee that those places won't be touched with a ten foot pole. you've turned the Realms into a cemetery. please fix that. and yes i'm saying revamp and reintroduce Al-Qadim, Maztica, and Kara-Tur, not necessarily as settings but as part of the Realms. if there's going to be continuity moving forward, this is going to be an unavoidable part of it. and a good part, so i hope i'm wrong when i anticipate Wizards balking. i don't know why it was decided that AQ, Maztica and Kara-Tur failed... but it wasn't the settings. the settings were good. maybe it was marketing, maybe it was Professor Plum in the Conservatory with the Candlestick, i don't care. it will be a good day when those settings come back into the light.
back on point.
Dear Wizards: you have been rebooting the Realms, with each new edition. please stop that. we don't want new stat blocks, we can make those ourselves. it's really not that hard. we buy Realms books for the creative content, not to find out the name and hit points of whoever rules Cormyr this year. feats and prestige classes are totally cool, but beyond that point, fluff > crunch. sincerely, your paycheck.
RSE's are a separate topic, about which there is very little happyshiny to say, but they're relevant here because making dramatic changes to the setting is apparently an accepted part of updating the rules. i argue with the premise here: we do not in fact need RSEs to "explain" new editions of the rules. but if we did need an RSE for each ruleset, then of course, that would be your justification for moving the timeline forward. reject the premise, and we can stop advancing the timeline.
because 1357 was just fine. really, it was.
there's also the fact that every single RSE has caused some % of the customers to give up in disgust and stop buying Realms books. it's time to realize that RSEs placed directly in the campaign timeframe are a mistake. always. the point of writing and publishing a campaign setting is to create a fantastic foundation upon which thousands (millions!) of different home campaigns can simultaneously and enjoyably be set. an RSE screws up the world, and forces thousands or millions of DMs to figure out how to deal with it. so don't do it that way. instead, just sell us a great setting... because that's what we want to pay you for. with the leads and rumors dropped in many products by many authors, we DMs can come up with our own RSEs to shake up our games, and the best part is we would have the freedom to use them when we want to, rather than having them shoved down our throats at an inconvenient place in the timeline. yea, a lot of us are creative enough to ignore/move things around, but why shoot yourself in the foot by requiring us to do that? why not just give us an amazing foundation, and then let us blow it up if/when we want to?
here's another thought. the bizarre side effect of moving the timeline forward and restarting the series of Realms publications every few years is the Realms actually stagnates. we see the same places over and over again, but seldom if ever something completely new. eventually, some % of us realize this, and stop buying new products... because they don't add anything new to our exploration of the Realms.
we've been seeing a lot more lately about lineages and successions... that's awesome. with that info, i can start on a 26 DR Cormyr campaign if i want to. no history, but with a rich future. or a 1500 DR Cormyr setting, with tons of history, and hopefully an equally rich future. flexibility is brilliant. this is an idea you should latch onto, in my personal and admittedly amateur opinion... give us a world in which we can pick a place and a year, and adventure therein. not "1385 Realms or 1479 Realms" - i don't want two choices, or five choices, or X choices. i want infinite choices. and, since i'm the customer, i'm right.
and you can actually give me what i want, quite easily. which means we can all have our cake and eat it too. we can rewind the official setting to 1357, and still keep the post-apocalyptic Realms for those who enjoy the 4e setting. and we can do it without making it a binary "1385 or 1479" choice.
how? *drumroll* resurrect the singularly-brilliant-and-tragically-abandoned-for-some-invalid-reason Arcane Age product line. give it a new name... something a little cooler and less specific, and develop that line the way it should have been done in the first place.
we had old Netheril and Myth Drannor in the 2e Arcane Age products. we can also write old Miyeritar, Imaskar, and any/all of the hundreds of other fallen kingdoms. we can also write up the post-spellplague planet... all of it, please-and-thank-you.
the potential of the Arcane Age line is robust enough to handle as many settings and time frames as you can come up with. Myth Drannor in 650, Netheril in whenever year that was, Miyeritar (actually all the elven empires) circa -12000, and 1479 Scorched Toril... it can do everything.
if you honestly believe that stopping the official timeline at 1357 (while opening up hundreds of other potential time frames for mini-setings) will result in running out of things to write about... you're completely wrong. there will never be a day when we have nothing else to write about the Realms. so take us to 1357, and give us back the vehicle by which we can explore elsewhen.
i'm not quite ready to give up on the Realms yet. and it seems that Markustay isn't either, since he's still ranting. this post has taken me a long time to write, too. i apologize for the degree to which i failed to achieve a positive attitude... i was actually trying to be good. and thank you to anyone who made it this far. have a shiny day. 
edit: after reading Erik's blog with a suggested direction, which he links on the first page of this thread, i think i basically agree with what's there. particularly this:
"And for those players who don’t want to use 5e? What about people who are perfectly happy with 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, or (yes) Pathfinder RPG? (Because no matter how good the system is, there will be some, I promise!) Fortunately, there’s everything that goes along with it: story, sourcebooks, content up the wazoo. The business case for this is simple: reach out to everyone who plays any sort of D&D and say “here–here’s a setting you can use whole-cloth with whatever you’re doing. Have at it.”"
or maybe i'm going a step beyond that. i'm not sure if you're just talking about the setting here, Erik. i think it's also important when moving forward to acknowledge previous editions of the D&D rules. because there's not a whole lot of difference between shoving the 4e Realms under the carpet in favor of new and improved 5e and shoving 4e D&D into the closet and expecting everyone to update to bright and shiny 5e D&D. in both cases you're saying you screwed up and you don't want people to look at it anymore; you want a do-over. that has been the M.O. of all previous editions, and it should stop.
i think two of my big hopes regarding 5e can be summarized succinctly.
1. The Setting: return to 1357. full stop. expand the setting in other time frames using Arcane Age (with a new logo).
2. The Rules: support all previous editions of the D&D rules.
#2 is the key to bringing hordes of old players back. #1 is the key to avoiding the loss of current players. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 09 Feb 2012 12:09:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 14:24:57
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Novels force the advancment of the timeline.
Once again, we come right back to that. Settings (mostly) without novels attached to them remain static, and the setting can grow by getting more detailed, rather then a constant re-hash of the same places over and over.
I don't mean completely 'frozen in time' - even Greyhawk and Eberron have moved forward incrementally. Both of those settings have novels, BTW, but they are written so as not to move the timeline forward (no WSE's). A lot of settings (like Azeroth/Warcraft, etc) do this by writing 'historic' novels - usually set in the recent past.
So I guess I just hit upon their plan - THEIR historic novels take place in our 'now'. 
And the 5e/4e 2.0 setting can continue on, novel-free. They are going to back-fill in that century (which they told us they wouldn't do). Like I said , most of us here are 'history'. Sorry, I try not to live in the past - why would I game there? That holds no interest for me.
The only way 5e will work is if they divide the timeline. The "one story, one Realms" approach will never work for those that never excepted 4e. And even if they give us a one-off - a module where we can save Mystra - it won't matter, if the rest of the material supports 4e lore. Most gamers are smart enough to see right through that.
Hell, they built a timeline-split button right into the GHotR. Its rather apparent to me that Shar's Black Chronology created a divergent path of prophesy. That is their out - if they don't use it, they'd be foolish. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 15:26:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6675 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
All the people I named are indeed somewhat specialized, and Krash is too (would he be a great representative for FR post 2e? Maybe, maybe not.)
Clearly I'm seen as the greybeard grognard.
For the record, I had input in about five 2E products as opposed to eleven 3E products.
Just saying is all.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:28:36
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Thus proving THE FANS keep MUCH better track of everything then 'official types' (in this case, what George has worked on, and how far his 'area of expertise' extends). I've only 'trumped' him once (in regards to the location of Thaeravel and its capitol... but geography is MY area of expertise).
And George - I count you as 'a fan', not 'a designer'.
Trust me, thats meant as a compliment. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 15:45:32 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6675 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:40:38
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I've been thinking that if WotC want to keep the Realms as part of 5E and make it a successful part, then they are going to have to come up with a product that appeals to a broad section of the FR fan base, and ideally the D&D fan base as a whole.
What my 23 or so years in the Realms has shown is that no edition or iteration of the Realms has come up with a brilliant "FR Player's Guide". This is the product that will make or break the Realms. The big FR Campaign Guide will attract the DMs and world builders (and the FR junkies but they buy everything anyway) but it is the PG that is likely the key to a successful 5E Realms.
I've long thought that the PG should be an information-packed tool that allows many, many character customisations steeped in the lore of the setting. It should contain information on regions, races, customs, dress, speech, social mores, taboos, superstitions, myths and legends. Game mechanics should be integrated with the Realms, giving players the chance to use variant spell casting traditions, fighting styles, priestly details and add-ons - basically, a system whereby cookie cutter characters are the exception rather than the rule.
The game/rules stuff should be so cool that it attracts non-FR fans simply for the content - "I've always wanted to play a dwarven bard with a repertoire of unique/variant song abilities" etc. - while the FR fans can wallow in the nitty gritty of the setting through their character choices.
Previous editions have gone some way toward this, but never to the extent needed IMHO.
If the Campaign Guide is a 300 page book, then so too should be the Player's Guide. Oh, and bring back the small font. The more information the better. Compare the font used in the 3E CG as opposed to the 4E CG. In the D&D world, more is more. And usually better.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:51:17
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Thats a great idea - have you seen my 'wish list', concerning new regional splats? I want EACH to be like a complete campaign setting unto itself.
If they follow that plan (which is brilliant, because I thought of it ), then they could have a downloadable FREE Web Enhancement for each region - a separate Player's Guide for what a player needs to know, or should know, being 'from that region'.
You want to run an Unapproachable East campaign? Fine - tell your players where they can download the stuff they need to know. How awesome would that be? They won't have to worry about sales (which is why they put both player & DM info in the same splats), because sneaky, cheating players (most are) will still buy the 'DM only' guides regardless.
But for the 'weekend player' (which is a market they have been gunning for), those kinds of WE guides would be a godsend. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 17:28:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 17:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hell, they built a timeline-split button right into the GHotR. Its rather apparent to me that Shar's Black Chronology created a divergent path of prophesy. That is their out - if they don't use it, they'd be foolish.
The Black Prophecy was part of why I once theorized that the Spellplague was going to adversely affect Shar... To quote myself, from that pre-FRCG thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yup, I said "failure".
Okay, so we only know a little of what's coming. But here's a couple of things I've noted.
First, from Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, page 4, boldfacing mine:
quote:
In –700 DR, while she was contributing to the Roll of Years, the seer known as Augathra the Mad began having dark visions. The Book of the Black was the result of those horrifying prophesies. Tormented by the Black Chronology she saw woven between the years, Augathra began wandering Faerûn, slowly being driven insane and earning her moniker.
After years of being lost, the Book of the Black came into the possession of the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower, who retrieved it from the Fane of Shadows in 684 DR. Inspired by the Book of the Black and their own ability to see the future, the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower deduced a coming weakness of Shar and penned their observations in a second tome, the Leaves of One Night.
Shar immediately cursed the Diviners’ writings, and shortly thereafter, thieves in the employ of the Church of Shar stole the Diviners’ copy of the Book of the Black, as well as the only copy of the Leaves of One Night.
We also know of the Black Chronology, from Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave. The intro of it seems to indicate that the starting date of the Black Chronology wasn't known until it actually kicked off, in 1352. The Black Chronology only goes up to 1385, the Year of the Revelation -- more commonly known as the Year of Blue Fire, when the Spellplague kicks off.
We know that Shar controls the Shadow Weave. We know from Ed that if the Weave goes kaput, so does the Shadow Weave -- because you can't have a shadow without it being a shadow of something. And we know that the Weave is soon to exit, stage left, because of the Spellplague. So that means the Shadow Weave, which Shar was counting on as a source of power, will go bye-bye. Mystra is tied to the Weave, and it's not unlikely that Shar is tied to the Shadow Weave.
So Shar is going to lose a source of her power, and it happens in the same year that is the apparent ending date of the Black Chronology.
With this string of possibly coincidental facts and suppositions, it is possible that the whole mess is going to backfire in Shar's face. It could cause her a major loss of power -- or it could be something as extreme as seeing Shar fall and be replaced.
Okay, my wild speculations are done. Run with them!
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Feb 2012 17:12:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 17:32:21
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Right.
Which makes it the PERFECT reset-point; it begins with the ToT (it was all dependent upon Cyric's rise).
One Realms, two paths.
If you make it possible to jump between the two, its pure win. Folks can either choose to ignore the other timeline, or go visit it. Its not like Toril hasn't been split in half before.
Use the lore to fix the lore - don't continue the deconstruction. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 18:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
The general consensus seems to be 'another time jump' (at least among the professors at Wizbro). Okay, fine. While Wizbro has once again proven that they don't 'get it' (and I really wasn't expecting anything to the contrary, to be honest), let's take the hand we are dealt, and try to get at least a full house, because lovers of lore should be cognizant that we will never have a royal flush.
Where does this come from? Link to an announcement?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One Realms, two paths.
If you make it possible to jump between the two, its pure win. Folks can either choose to ignore the other timeline, or go visit it. Its not like Toril hasn't been split in half before.
Use the lore to fix the lore - don't continue the deconstruction.
I appreciate the idea, but this thread is devoted to NOT cutting the Realms in half and dividing the fanbase. An alternate timeline is the same strategy as going into 4e, and it almost killed the Realms. Why would we want to do that again?
As I see it, your strategy is all about deconstruction, whereas what I'm talking about is repair and reconciliation.
And people have ALWAYS HAD THE CHOICE to ignore things they don't like and skip over to things they do. And look how that's turned out. 
Sigh.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Clearly I'm seen as the greybeard grognard.
For the record, I had input in about five 2E products as opposed to eleven 3E products.
Just saying is all.
-- George Krashos
And for the record, Krash, I would LOVE to see you on a Council of Realms Experts. My dream team would be you, the James Brothers, Steven Schend, Brian Cortijo, and Ed Greenwood, with Bruce Cordell as both a member and the in-house WotC liaison.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
The general consensus seems to be 'another time jump' (at least among the professors at Wizbro). Okay, fine. While Wizbro has once again proven that they don't 'get it' (and I really wasn't expecting anything to the contrary, to be honest), let's take the hand we are dealt, and try to get at least a full house, because lovers of lore should be cognizant that we will never have a royal flush.
Where does this come from? Link to an announcement?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One Realms, two paths.
If you make it possible to jump between the two, its pure win. Folks can either choose to ignore the other timeline, or go visit it. Its not like Toril hasn't been split in half before.
Use the lore to fix the lore - don't continue the deconstruction.
I appreciate the idea, but this thread is devoted to NOT cutting the Realms in half and dividing the fanbase. An alternate timeline is the same strategy as going into 4e, and it almost killed the Realms. Why would we want to do that again?
As I see it, your strategy is all about deconstruction, whereas what I'm talking about is repair and reconciliation.
And people have ALWAYS HAD THE CHOICE to ignore things they don't like and skip over to things they do. And look how that's turned out.
Sigh.
Cheers
But building on what was said about the Black Chronology:
Therein lies the key. If they somehow made the Black Chronology relevant, leading to a healing of the realms/weave/X/Y/Z perhaps it would make happy all those that played those modules, and reunite the realms.
Perhaps the benefit of foiling the Black Chronology effects will not manifest until 1479 or whatever year we are in. Kind of like how Anakin Skywalker DID bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith, just not in the way anyone envisioned.
I think brainstorming a way for Shar's plan to backfire and suddenly hit her in the head now is great poetic justice.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 09 Feb 2012 19:09:58 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:58:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I think brainstorming a way for Shar's plan to backfire and suddenly hit her in the head now is great poetic justice.
Hoar would be pleased. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 09 Feb 2012 19:58:30 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
Topic Locked
