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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 16:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah - something like The Waterdeep Gazette, or some-such. A single information-source for novel, Video-Game, comic, & RPG FR fans alike.
Waterdeep News would probably be a more appropriate title.
The title is a bit too lackluster, for me.
Lots of newspapers use 'gazette', and it would be a partial homage to the old-school Mystara Gazetteers (and there's one for GH, I believe).
Also, unlike 'News', which makes it sound very dry and informational (like 'The Times'), I'd like to see something more along the lines of a tabloid-like presentation. A 'current clack' written along the lines of a gossip-column could pull double duty - the immersion factor I keep talking about, and gives us plenty of juicy plot-hooks and NPC names to throw around.
Kinda like The Daily Prophet from the Harry Potter novels. 'News' we can get from timelines - I want to know who's face Laaral threw a glass of wine in during a Waterdeep Society bash.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 15:38:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Clickable zoomable Realms maps with distance calculators and satellite photos? And a history slider? With annotations and bookmarks? Wouldn't that be grand, eh?
WotC might have a cartographer or some "map artists" available, but I'm pretty sure they don't have any code writing 3D artists on staff, not any who could construct and maintain this project. A project of this sort would have to (re)explore horizontal expansion into a "new" market, and would require WotC rests a heavy burden of brand faith on a single person who is probably a new hire. They might luck out and land the ultimate D&D nerd genius maphacker ... but it's a gamble. It's also a shame, since this sort of product is very obvious (and fairly easy to implement) and should have been done long ago, when done well then it can serve as a platform for building future maps and products, if done poorly it can always be fixed and improved. Although WotC might stall it off year after year it is also inevitable: if they don't do it then somebody like Paizo will eventually beat them to it. When it comes to software products, WotC is still swimming at the shallow end.
-Don't think it's that difficult, relatively speaking. I believe someone told me that Paizo had something like it for something related to their world, somewhere on their website (paying or free, I don't know). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 00:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah - something like The Waterdeep Gazette, or some-such. A single information-source for novel, Video-Game, comic, & RPG FR fans alike.
Waterdeep News would probably be a more appropriate title.
The title is a bit too lackluster, for me.
Lots of newspapers use 'gazette', and it would be a partial homage to the old-school Mystara Gazetteers (and there's one for GH, I believe).
Also, unlike 'News', which makes it sound very dry and informational (like 'The Times'), I'd like to see something more along the lines of a tabloid-like presentation. A 'current clack' written along the lines of a gossip-column could pull double duty - the immersion factor I keep talking about, and gives us plenty of juicy plot-hooks and NPC names to throw around.
Kinda like The Daily Prophet from the Harry Potter novels. 'News' we can get from timelines - I want to know who's face Laaral threw a glass of wine in during a Waterdeep Society bash.
We have dozens of what are called "Broadsheets" in Waterdeep (created by Ed, of course), any one of which could be a great product to include in Dragon. Particularly the Mocking Minstrel would be fun, but you could easily pull down another name.
I myself would go for something like "Harper's Herald," which isn't strictly limited to Waterdeep but could extend all over the Realms--wherever the Harpers are busy resisting some villainy or the like. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 01:19:45
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Hmmm. "Harper's Herald" sounds like a fine addition for a circulating broadsheet composed by travelling minstrels who "report" on the happenings of local and surrounding communities. I'm dropping that into my Realms.
But what's free press without a little competition, eh? So I'm declaring a rival broadsheet composition/distribution society in the form of the "Silverstar's Voice" which, at it's heart, is the essence of minstrelsy news and gossip as only the Moonstars can gather, and seeks to both expand on what's being reported by the Harpers through their broadsheet, and to actively seek the truth in all matters pertaining to the news of the day. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 02:47:45
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| how about The Holdfast Listings??? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 06:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah - something like The Waterdeep Gazette, or some-such. A single information-source for novel, Video-Game, comic, & RPG FR fans alike.
Waterdeep News would probably be a more appropriate title.
The title is a bit too lackluster, for me.
Lots of newspapers use 'gazette', and it would be a partial homage to the old-school Mystara Gazetteers (and there's one for GH, I believe).
Also, unlike 'News', which makes it sound very dry and informational (like 'The Times'), I'd like to see something more along the lines of a tabloid-like presentation. A 'current clack' written along the lines of a gossip-column could pull double duty - the immersion factor I keep talking about, and gives us plenty of juicy plot-hooks and NPC names to throw around.
Kinda like The Daily Prophet from the Harry Potter novels. 'News' we can get from timelines - I want to know who's face Laaral threw a glass of wine in during a Waterdeep Society bash.
We have dozens of what are called "Broadsheets" in Waterdeep (created by Ed, of course), any one of which could be a great product to include in Dragon. Particularly the Mocking Minstrel would be fun, but you could easily pull down another name.
I myself would go for something like "Harper's Herald," which isn't strictly limited to Waterdeep but could extend all over the Realms--wherever the Harpers are busy resisting some villainy or the like.
Cheers
Piergieron's Press?  |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 22:39:45
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Magic Missive?
(Read it AT THE DARKNESS!!!)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 01:13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Magic Missive?
(Read it AT THE DARKNESS!!!)
Cheers
Do you have any Cheetos? |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 13:03:38
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| What was the name of the one found on-line years ago? The Waterdeep times or something like that? They were probably the best non-company Realmslore I have read. Unfortunately the page disappeared a few years ago. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 13:46:32
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The Candlekeep Observer: Tales of the Realms.....
hmmm that sounds like a good idea for a broadsheet.... any of you guys have a good tale to....nevermind... gets someone else to do it... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 15:47:55
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I wonder how the Rise of the Underdark with Lolth trying to claim the mantle of Goddess of Magic will feed into 5th edition. That is a cool development.
I have to hand it too 4e. I don't agree with alot of changes, but they have done well with alot of fluff.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 16:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I don't agree with alot of changes, but they have done well with alot of fluff.
-I would say that, while it's good for D&D in general, if it's shoehorned into the Forgotten Realms because "everything needs to follow the official story" or whatever, that's a bad thing. Some things make more sense than others, and I can buy Lolth doing something to try to increase her power- she's done it before, and will undoubtedly do it again- but as is mentioned a lot, the random destruction of Lurien, because Halflings in the 4e Core books were vagabonds? Not cool. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 17:01:10
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Yeah, destroying/changing things to keep up with perceived "demands" of the mechanical game is a terrible idea, and I think 5e FR is shaping up to avoid that.
I am hoping something gets done about Luiren, because it's such a great concept and a waste of lots of stories to explode it and call it a day.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 18:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Yeah, destroying/changing things to keep up with perceived "demands" of the mechanical game is a terrible idea, and I think 5e FR is shaping up to avoid that.
I am hoping something gets done about Luiren, because it's such a great concept and a waste of lots of stories to explode it and call it a day.
Cheers
The fact that abeir just appeared, and the dragonborn land over Mulhorand just appeared is their out. Since those lands were transported here, Faerun lands probably transferred unscathed there.
It is entirely possible that the lands could re-appear, and it does not mean that Returned Abeir must be lost.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 19:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Yeah, destroying/changing things to keep up with perceived "demands" of the mechanical game is a terrible idea, and I think 5e FR is shaping up to avoid that.
I am hoping something gets done about Luiren, because it's such a great concept and a waste of lots of stories to explode it and call it a day.
Cheers
That's my thought on Halruaa. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 20:39:48
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| And mine on Dambrath |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 20:47:48
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| What about Evermeet? I understand that it was ported to the Feywild, but what I don't get is this 'echo' of it that remains on Toril. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 20:56:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Yeah, destroying/changing things to keep up with perceived "demands" of the mechanical game is a terrible idea, and I think 5e FR is shaping up to avoid that.
I am hoping something gets done about Luiren, because it's such a great concept and a waste of lots of stories to explode it and call it a day.
Cheers
ditto
my oppinion on the reason it was destryoed was becasue how they made the 4e halflings homeless nomads and that their ancient homeland was destroyed in some....
and halruua too....( well not the reason that lurien was wasted) |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 21:19:08
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I think there's great story potential for Dambrath, about the reconstruction of the Lolthite monarchy, or whether the drow and native humans end up in something altogether new. AFAIK, I do think the Shining South suffered from a perception (accurate or not) that it was not a very popular part of Faerun. I understand that you may like it a lot, but sales numbers for that book were substantially lower than others. (I don't know that for sure--that's just the impression that I have based on my information.)
Returning lands from Abeir would be neat, or alternatively an Abeir setting focusing on some of those lands would be cool too.
Regarding Evermeet: it was yanked into the Feywild, but it still crosses over into our world, the same way anything in the Feywild does. The Feywild and the Shadowfell are, in 2e terms, coterminous/overlapping with the Realms material, as easy to cross over as the Ethereal was.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 15:09:03
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A question for the group:
The impression is out there that FR is too big for its britches. There is too much lore for new players and DMs who don't have time/energy for that kind of commitment.
If this is a valid issue, how do we address it?
If not, how do we negate the perception of a stumbling block?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 16:05:21
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It is most certainly *WAY* too big. By its own sales success over the last 20+ years, FR has become a massive compilation of canon-structured data that is now primarily consumed by a fairly narrow demographic audience niche.
Changing anything about that would be wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels. The question becomes, how do we creatively keep this evolutionary market model intact and still let WotC turn a profit on it?
FR is never, ever going to be an "easy to enter" game/campaign world without having its massive backlog of wondrous and breathtaking historical data becoming easily available and consumable to the uninformed masses. Dumbing it down 4E-style for the video gaming demographic is not the answer. Possibly, part of the explosion of interest may have to come through "Glorifying the Canon Lore", presenting it as easy-to-navigate and compelling eye-candy ... then making it free on the internet. Just the basics, mind you. The *detailed* lore ... is where the product-pushing and money-making comes in for WotC. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 16:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A question for the group:
The impression is out there that FR is too big for its britches. There is too much lore for new players and DMs who don't have time/energy for that kind of commitment.
If this is a valid issue, how do we address it?
If not, how do we negate the perception of a stumbling block?
Cheers
-One thing, but it's a bit of a double edged sword, is that you showcase the things that generally don't get showcased (double edged because, as was just mentioned, the things that usually get pushed to the side are the things that research groups or actual sales tell them will sell the least). Waterdeep has been covered extensively in multiple books in various different ways. No doubt, plenty still exists that we don't know about, but no other specific city or place as received the dearth of coverage that Waterdeep has. We know specific streets, specific shops, specific whatever elses. Halruaa, on the other hand, has had substantially less coverage over the years. We have broad strokes, but so much has been only given the most vaguest coverage, if even. Focus on the things that people are less used to seeing- and are less convinced that 'no stone has gone unturned'. People who like the setting already will likely go, "Awesome! Halruaa is getting coverage!" People who are exasperated by the setting because of the depth of coverage some things get will likely go, "Hmm. A place that is not Waterdeep. Let's see here what we're got." It's not fool proof by any means, but it's something. That kind of strategy also extends to the people who are sick of Waterdeep the 'sense of wonder of discovery' that they might feel left out from when more about a subject that already has been piled on over the years is released.
-Another thing, and this might be most important, is that WotC has to strike an even balance between accepting the perception that many people have that there's too much to be able to properly follow the setting and/or run a D&D game with it with the closer reality of things, that the Forgotten Realms is their top money maker (in terms of specific worlds they actively produce) and the reason for this is that people buy and continue to buy their products. If it was impossible to follow the setting and/or run a D&D game with the way things are/were, how is it that the Forgotten Realms continues to exist, continues to be the most purchased setting they produce, has the generally largest following, and so on? The 4e transition articles, where they explained their rationale for doing things, and the couple of pages in the FRCG/FRPG, too much of it was, "We saw your percieved problems, and we addressed them", percieved being key. It's not that WotC should say along the lines, "You are all idiots for thinking this; we're not changing anything", but WotC should be more active in changing the perception to fit the reality, rather than changing the reality to fit the perception.
-On that last part, WotC has a lot to do. How often to we read articles that WotC themselves puts out on their website or WotC-contracted authors/designer write semi-independently about "Oh, the pitfalls of Forgotten Realms canon!"? I can think of two that I read here just over the past month or so. During the 3e/4e transitory period in like 2007/2008 or whatever, there were a bunch more I can vaguely remember. In the interim period between then and now, I actively followed things a lot less than I did then, and now, so I don't know any figures for then, but I am sure there were at least a few. Now, contrast that with articles that WotC themselves put out on their website or WotC-contracted authors/designer wrote semi-independently about how much fun research into things is; how for every little tidbit they find, two more things pique their interest; how every mystery they figure out, two more questions are asked. How often to we see those articles? From just the WotC designers/authors who post here semi-regularly, a good five, six such articles could be written. From posters who post semi-regularly here, another fifty, sixty.
-That's not to say that WotC should be ignoring the people who say they have gripes with the world because of X, Y, or Z. Actively going on with what is, by the sales and by online discussion and whatever else, a relative minority and crapping on your own stuff to help fit their narrative, rather than help mold their views better? Should be reversed.
quote:
Originally posted by Snow
FR is never, ever going to be an "easy to enter" game/campaign world without having its massive backlog of wondrous and breathtaking historical data becoming easily available and consumable to the uninformed masses.
-Disagree with this. I became a fan of the Forgotten Realms in 2002 or 2003 or so. At not point did I find it particularly "hard to enter", and when I did start getting into it, I didn't have access to every novel and every sourcebook immediately. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 16 Apr 2012 16:55:58 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 17:10:56
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I think the origin of the "hard to enter" characterization is the (mis)perception that in order to run a "proper" FR game, you have to use anything and everything out there. I see absolutely no problem with running a FR game that does the lore in broad strokes, and brings in only as much canon as the DM wants.
Let me put it by way of an example. Say you want to run a game in 16th century England. That's one level right there: the technology is at a certain level, international relations are at a certain place, certain characters are particularly relevant, etc. You take the broad strokes info approach and establish a small city (let's call it Waterdeep), and set your campaign there. The main thing is that you get the era right and it *feels* like 16th century England. The actual historical canon isn't all that significant, unless you *want* to take events and use them. You're playing an alternate history fantasy game.
Now say you want to narrow your focus to 1530s England and the court of Henry VIII. Well, now you have more specific information, and a whole wealth of "canon" (historical) research you could do, or you could just make stuff up to fit that particular time/place. But the point is, the information is there for you to use. Now you're playing a Phillipa Gregory novel.
Now you want to narrow it down even further--maybe to a set year, or a set event, etc. And again, there's more "canon" research to be done/more stuff to be invented.
See what I'm driving at? Every step of the way, you the DM get to decide how deeply you're going to go into the canon, and how much you're going to make up. When playing a RPG, it's your creativity that determines what happens in the game. The canon is only there as a set of suggestions.
It's a question of how close you want to scrutinize the setting, which I think is ALWAYS up to the DM, rather than the designers. The best we as designers can offer is to give you as much as possible, so that you can pick and choose what you want to do.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 17:18:07
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I want to make another point regarding entrance into the setting.
I have been a Realms fan since Darkwalker on Moonshae, but I know a LOT of people got into the setting through Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights. Those games present a HUGE amount of canon, with the advantage (of course) being that there's no DM to get overwhelmed by the data. It's just you, the player, learning and embracing as you go along.
There's something to be said for this model, but it's not necessarily all that practical to release a new video game based on your setting every 5 years or so. (Though I'd love that.) But then again, it does bear noting that there IS a major FR video game in the works (Neverwinter), and the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights games are getting a revamped re-release this summer. That's a comfortable "in" for entering the setting.
On the tabletop side, I think the tight-focused campaigns like the Neverwinter Campaign Setting or (forthcoming) Menzoberranzan represent a good soft-lore way to get into the setting and let you dive into the vast sea of canon at your own pace, in your own time, if at all. Speaking from experience, as a DM running Neverwinter games, I can pull in as much lore as I want to bolster the campaign, or let it run loose (broad-strokes) to accomodate players you don't know/aren't as interested in the Realmslore. I've been running a 4e FR game for the last couple years that started with players who were completely new to the Realms, some of whom have really embraced it and become die-hard Realms fans, others haven't (they're just along for the ride, and having a great time with the game).
So it *can* be done, and done well/easily. The trick is figuring out the right way to do it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 19:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I want to make another point regarding entrance into the setting.
I have been a Realms fan since Darkwalker on Moonshae, but I know a LOT of people got into the setting through Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights. Those games present a HUGE amount of canon, with the advantage (of course) being that there's no DM to get overwhelmed by the data. It's just you, the player, learning and embracing as you go along.
There's something to be said for this model, but it's not necessarily all that practical to release a new video game based on your setting every 5 years or so. (Though I'd love that.) But then again, it does bear noting that there IS a major FR video game in the works (Neverwinter), and the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights games are getting a revamped re-release this summer. That's a comfortable "in" for entering the setting.
On the tabletop side, I think the tight-focused campaigns like the Neverwinter Campaign Setting or (forthcoming) Menzoberranzan represent a good soft-lore way to get into the setting and let you dive into the vast sea of canon at your own pace, in your own time, if at all. Speaking from experience, as a DM running Neverwinter games, I can pull in as much lore as I want to bolster the campaign, or let it run loose (broad-strokes) to accomodate players you don't know/aren't as interested in the Realmslore. I've been running a 4e FR game for the last couple years that started with players who were completely new to the Realms, some of whom have really embraced it and become die-hard Realms fans, others haven't (they're just along for the ride, and having a great time with the game).
So it *can* be done, and done well/easily. The trick is figuring out the right way to do it.
Cheers
I was doing so well at not writing novellas! I'll answer both of the questions posited in one post.
First, like all things, the Forgotten Realms is no more or less daunting than any other game of complexity. As you have alluded to, Erik, players do not need to know everything about the setting to play within it, and neither do dungeon masters. However, the more informed the dungeon master, the more roads open to both her and her players. But, and this is where in retrospect the 3EFRCG may have gone too far, saying a little bit about everything is far worse than saying a lot about a few things. This necessitates the purchase of companion products just to run a game where a seasoned player doesn't say "that's not how it works" every-other minute.
I think that the key word is core campaign guide. The 5EFRCG should talk about the big stuff (Toril, Faerūn, what's the difference) and introduce major city-states (Cormyr, "The Dales," Waterdeep, Amn, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate (only because people who enter the Realms via those vehicles will want a sense of familiarity) and a footnote about the Underdark. Nice maps are critical, and I'd like to see them highlighted with "this road is pretty safe" or "this road has a lot of bandits" or "this road has lots of monsters" or a combination thereof. I know that I felt cheated as a DM in that I just randomly rolled "X" amount of dice and if there was a '1' on any of them, then there was a "random encounter." Otherwise, if it took three days travel to get from Suzail to Arabel, I just rolled the dice, people rested, healed, prayed, studied, and I rolled the dice again. Travel was very boring.
Here's where I think that the mechanics of the game become very important. They should be simple, and seamlessly integrated into the FRCG. If you're spelunking in 3E-era Myth Drannor, then I want a simple symbol that says these monsters are "level 4" (similar to how ski slopes are labeled) and then maybe a couple of other symbols indicating what types of monsters I'm likely to find there (planar, woodland). I would have an entry for Myth Drannor as follows:
Myth Drannor (4) (W) (F) (H) <- these would be neat icons
Myth Drannor is a fallen Elven City. Rumors of great treasure and magical items draw many adventuring parties to this wooded, overgrown ruins, usually to their doom. The elves guard their secrets well and valued their privacy. Beware of traps of all kinds and expect the unexpected.
quote:
this is a "legend" for the purposes of this post only, and would not appear beneath every entry.
(4) is the difficulty level with 5 being the hardest.
(W) means wooded creatures/monsters, up to level 4.
(F) means fantastical creatures, up to level 4
(H) means hard, high-risk/return adventures. Expect to kill a lot of things to get rewards, but the rewards are higher quality.
As a DM or player, I know enough to run a game there. If Wizbro comes out with a supplement or what not on Myth Drannor, then I can buy it and learn all I want to know about the setting, or as much as Ed is willing to tell me. But, I don't need to know any more than is listed above to play the area successfully. If a PC comes in speaking of mythals, and the DM has no idea what they are, the DM can ask the player how he knows of these things, and then both can learn. The DM may decide to include or exclude the mythal, but it's not required to play the area.
Basically, I've felt that all of the Realms are treated the same. Surface travel is safer, Undermountain and Underdark are more dangerous, and the planes are downright nasty. In fact, there are plenty of areas on the surface that are dangerous. I just don't have a quick reference as a DM that tells me where they are. The maps have been equisitely drawn, but if I were an adventurer, I'd never buy one. I've yet to see one that tells me where I should beware of landslides, where the roads go out in the winter, or where there are large packs of trolls, orcs, hobgoblins, or kobolds swarming around.
Making the core book simple and accessible with just enough information for all players is the key. Those who have knowledge of an area will supplant the basics, and those who do not will learn. Expansions are never required to enjoy the basic game, and the mechanics are simple and intuitive. Oh, and because I'm on my high horse, they'll have a version in Braille available for blind people to order via their Website.
I don't need nor want a book updating me on the goings on of the Pantheon as my base book for the Realms. I do want that book, but I want it as a supplement where that's all that is covered in said book. I do not want a book that introduces new spells or character classes - that should be in the core book. Here is where the Realms needs to learn that it owns more than one pair of britches. New players and veterans alike will find a modular system more useful, and more approachable. Expansions must expand, as their names imply, not replace missing areas in the main book.
Cheers
Azuth] |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 20:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A question for the group:
The impression is out there that FR is too big for its britches. There is too much lore for new players and DMs who don't have time/energy for that kind of commitment.
If this is a valid issue, how do we address it?
If not, how do we negate the perception of a stumbling block?
See my 'wishlist' thread.
You release EACH regional book as if it were its own campaign guide. Doesn't matter what book a group grabs first - they have a start-area and enough info to get them up-and-running (regional feats, etc). When a group has either 'outgrown' an area, or are just feeling a little restless, the DM can then purchase an adjoining (or even non-adjoining) regional book, and the players have a new area to explore including a new 'base' (start-area). Every regional book should have one town/village fleshed-out - this not only helps beginners jump into FR in whatever area interests them, but also helps seasoned groups (and DMs) establish way-points as they travel around the greater Realms.
Include info to scale the 1-3 included adventures (along with a dozen or so 'current clack' style plothooks), and you allow everyone an easier entry-point into FR, while still giving 'old fans' all that additional regional info we crave. Make them like a cross between the Volo's Guides, and the Elminster's Ecologies series - like a tour of the region, but with more detail on specific (adventure-related) things. This way, new fans can then digest The Realms in bite-size chunks.
We also need an online resource with a(n unbiased) synopsis on each entry (on every single local, character, flora & fauna, creature, group, etc) that is fully indexed and cross-referenced (like a wiki, but done much better then the FR Wiki, which is nearly useless IMHO). Something like this was started some time ago here at the Keep, but never really went anywhere. Maybe if we had some 'official' support, the project could get back up to speed. If they (WotC) think they may be 'giving too much away for free', look at it this way - those very brief summations will often lead people to want to find out more, and thats where the lists of related sources comes in (the indexing), and THAT is what you make folks pay for - that 'deeper level' of detail (usually found in the older sources, which will presumably be made available in some manner once again).
And, of course, this 'project' should be monitored/edited by the 'CORE' group of Realms experts, and updated with every single product (REGARDLESS of what it is - comic, game, RPG resource, novel, online article, etc). Perhaps Sage (or someone) could even include all the 'Ed Lore' gleaned from his responses here (which should probably be put under a special heading of "so sayeth EG", just in case it contradicts something else).
I just realized something - E. Gary Gygax... Ed Greenwood... they're both a couple of 'good EGgs'.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm. "Harper's Herald" sounds like a fine addition for a circulating broadsheet composed by traveling minstrels who "report" on the happenings of local and surrounding communities. I'm dropping that into my Realms.
THIS.
And of course, many of the articles would contain hidden 'code' for master-harpers to read and find-out whats really going on in certain areas.
Then Hasbro can make even more money selling us 'secret decoder rings'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Apr 2012 20:54:52 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 22:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A question for the group:
The impression is out there that FR is too big for its britches. There is too much lore for new players and DMs who don't have time/energy for that kind of commitment.
I'm torn regarding this because I love Realms lore as possible content I can choose to add or not add. As someone that's DM'd almost my entire life, I sometimes feel there is too much lore, at least too much for me to ever use. I think there comes a point where one has access to so much lore that it's incredibly easy to be overwhelmed by it.
quote:
If this is a valid issue, how do we address it?
I'm not sure it needs to be addressed, despite my concerns above. If I had to choose between being tsunami'd by FR lore vs. begging for more, I'd choose the tsunami.
quote:
If not, how do we negate the perception of a stumbling block?
I'm not sure this is something that can be negated. As others have said, the Realms barrier to entry will always been high due to what has come before. The best way I can think of to help alleviate some of that barrier is to create introductory Realms material for beginners to the world. Then, they'll be able to choose how much further they wish to expand their Realms to beyond the basic Realms supplement(s).
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I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 15:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm. "Harper's Herald" sounds like a fine addition for a circulating broadsheet composed by traveling minstrels who "report" on the happenings of local and surrounding communities. I'm dropping that into my Realms.
THIS.
And of course, many of the articles would contain hidden 'code' for master-harpers to read and find-out whats really going on in certain areas.
Then Hasbro can make even more money selling us 'secret decoder rings'.
Hey, that's supposed to be a secret plan!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 16:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm. "Harper's Herald" sounds like a fine addition for a circulating broadsheet composed by traveling minstrels who "report" on the happenings of local and surrounding communities. I'm dropping that into my Realms.
THIS.
And of course, many of the articles would contain hidden 'code' for master-harpers to read and find-out whats really going on in certain areas.
Then Hasbro can make even more money selling us 'secret decoder rings'.
Hey, that's supposed to be a secret plan!
Cheers
shush you... as Helm's chief priest in this world... you were supposed to watch your mouth when you were trusted with that secret. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 16:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then Hasbro can make even more money selling us 'secret decoder rings'.
Hey, that's supposed to be a secret plan!
shush you... as Helm's chief priest in this world... you were supposed to watch your mouth when you were trusted with that secret.
Heh. Your despair is sweet to the lady.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
Topic Locked
