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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 13:58:12
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Hi Guys,
just to ask, in my games, 3,0 /3,5 I handle the above mentioned, as well as siege crossbows as ignoring standard armor.
imho this is due to the aiming rules and just to reflect the immense ballistic energy created on th eimpact of these weapons.
historically they were able to shoot through several bodies if they stood behind each other, and I just do not see any armor holding them up on a direct hit.
but as always I am highly interested how you guys handle this.
Thx for replies
Jakuta Khan
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 17:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Hi Guys,
just to ask, in my games, 3,0 /3,5 I handle the above mentioned, as well as siege crossbows as ignoring standard armor.
I can't speak for 3.x mechanics but how I houserule large area effect attacks (like giants lobbing boulders) is this:
- they make an attack roll to hit an area (approx 10' square) with a boulder
- if they hit at least AC20 (based purely on hit dice to hit with no str bonuses etc - so a 10HD giant get + 10 to hit) the boulder lands in the right area
- I then give any player in that area a save vs paralysis to take half damage. Typically a thrown boulder will be 4d4 - 6d4 dam or so - sometimes 6D6 for really big giants. I would also houserule that a natural 20 save results in no damage at all.
So I would rule the same for siege engine sized ballista - though is this case the area will probably be 5' wide and 20' long, rather than a 10 X 10 square.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 17:43:06
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| Not sure your aware but the supplement Heroes of Battle has all sorts of rules for mass combat, siege weapons, maintaining armies, and militaristic style campaigns. Its actually a great supplement for cross-editions and realt, any d20-style game. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 18:15:21
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Really quick rule-of-thumb (that I just came up with).
If enemies are standing in a line (pretty stupid, but thats what they did back then), then I would do the first attack normally, and roll for the next in-line -1/4 the first guys AC for the attack roll (rounded up), and then -1/2 the 2nd guy's AC to hit the 3rd, and so on, and so forth. The first miss indicates the bolt is stuck in the last guy (a 1-point miss could indicate a knock-down of the next guy though, if you want a layer of realism).
Thats for an average variety. A 'light' version might get an additional +1 per guy penetrated, applied to the AC before fractionalizing it. A heavy version might get a -1 (or even -2 for a super-heavy variant) on each guy after the first, to offset the reduction in penetration due to AC. Apply this to the former (hit) target's full AC before determining what you need to hit the next guy in-line.
I don't know how well that will work for you - I just threw it together. Tweak-away. 
EDIT: The problem with the standard D&D rules is that AC not only reflects armor worn, but also a target's ability to not get hit, which makes it very difficult to simulate realistic combat. In my above rule, I would not take into account an AC derived through skills or class features - it should rely solely on armor because THAT is the only thing slowing down the bolt. It should be possible to go through several peasant militiamen, but it would be doubtful for it to go through a knight in full plate and be able to do the same to the second in-line. As for the physical body of the targets, I assume that is already built-into the numbers, and should not have a variable (unless the guy is really, REALLY fat!)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not sure your aware but the supplement Heroes of Battle has all sorts of rules for mass combat, siege weapons, maintaining armies, and militaristic style campaigns. Its actually a great supplement for cross-editions and realy, any d20-style game.
You just gave me an interesting idea, concerning the 5e announcement.
I wonder if it would be possible to create 'universal' optional rules, like mass-combat, that would work under any system. If they make the 5e rules modular, people from any edition can use parts of it, as they choose.
That could actually work. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 18:32:55 |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 22:43:21
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I usually equip the balistae with magic ammunition in order to make them more intimidating, if not players will not be interested in "primitive machines that throws big sticks" and look for any enemy spellcaster/priest/officer instead (i assume a battle takes place).
Another use for ballistae is that it makes a good counter for large targets, like wyvers giants even dragons (perhaps with some additional equipment like chains to bring the Dragon down). I havent make any notable rules, that use is mostly story based.
For shooting and operating the machine i would ask for a Knowledge (Architecture and engineering) check. Depending on the machine i would add or lower the DC among with other modifiers)
Example:
BASE DC (DC 10)
A standart Cormyrean (lets say "Arabel" Mark 3) is a machine known to the operator (DC -2)
The operator uses this machine (named Lusty Lussile ) for a long time (DC -3)
The machine is well maintained (DC -2)
The Orcs are medium range (DC 0)
and charging (DC +4)
Weather is light rain (DC+2) medium wind (DC+3) (DC +5)
So a Knowledge (Architecture and engineering) check is required with a DC of 12.
For damage i would suggest a total number (lets say 10d6) witch can be divided. For examle 44 HPs total, average Orc HP (10, well its an example) so 4 orcs are killed and one wounded (well, add a nice cinematic of how it rips 4 ranks of orcs and then bangs to the 5th's breastplate and the players will be happy - noone will complain of the 4 HP wasted)
However i always have in mind the flow of the game. If i devise or find somewhere complex rules about the ballistae still i doubt i could use them, even if they were good and balanced. It is bad to start flipping pages, searching notes and explain new rules when the PCs are in the middle of a battle.
Oh, and another use mentioned in in "The Gamers" movie:
The Gamemaster: You're going to backstab him with a ballista?
Nimble the Thief: Uh huh
The Gamemaster: With a @#%$%##% siege weapon?
Nimble the Thief: Uh huh
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Edited by - Marquant Volker on 15 Jan 2012 22:45:46 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 01:29:50
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quote:
Early Carolingian warfare: prelude to empire
The ballista survived quite well in the West. The early Carolingians had formulae for the production of incendiaries delivered by a specially structured "arrow" to be fired by a ballista. The ballista was used, for example, in combat operations against the Vikings that were undertaken by military forces raised in the regnum Francorum during the ninth century. In an epic poem with noteworthy satiric passages, Abbo of Saint Germain claims that his hero could skewer seven men with a single missile shot from such a weapon ...
I'm guessing this assumes you have seven men with minimum hit points, of course. Incidentally, this book offers commentary about historical military weapons, technologies, and tactics which can turn any "stick thrower" into a fearsome platform of ranged destruction. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Jan 2012 01:32:51 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 02:02:03
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Well I never shot PCs or NPCs with either, however given the option the best way I think I would deal with it is something like this.
The to hit first target clearly is standard, there is no reason to automatically believe the bolt could not fully pass though the body. Even line of sight does not matter as bolt could be deflected by some degree, I would reduce chance to hit by 2 for any target within 5 foot, reduced again by two to hit a third close by and so on. Inferring of course all targets were in range in first place, *considers* oh speed kinda already figured, however range was not. Reduce range 10 yards for ever target pieced might work. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 08:25:45
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interesting input, thx so far everybody.
so basically we all agree that it would ignore the armor bonus of the first target hit? |
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how do you handle ballistae / scorpions?
