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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 20:18:04
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I am coming out of DM-ing retirement for a weekend. Let me catch you up. Real life, we stopped playing about 15 years ago, but are looking to do a reunion game over a weekend about a year from now.
For the campaign the PC's entered a magical stasis in the first month of year of the Shadows, right before the Avatar Trilogy. The players don’t know they are in stasis yet, although they knew something is up. But in their "bubble" they think they are just entering 2E.
So, I have free reign to bring them out of stasis, right in to 4E (or even 5E if it comes out in time), and let them discover all that has happened, and I am confident they won’t like the events of the Realms when I drop them in Post Spellplague. Their base in Tilverton is gone, and I could go on, but while I don’t post to much, I read enough scroll to be confident you all get the gist.
So, I have looked at some of the lore regarding Time Travel, and I am going to let these poor First Edition AD&D players of mine pursue going back in time and preventing the Spellplague in the first place. It’s going to rely heavily on the player’s knowledge of the novels, and their confidence that they are accurate. But beyond that I am looking to roll with the punches on whatever their course of action is. I am however on the look out for the obvious, and not so obvious. And here is my question…
If your player had a way to go back in time, and was confident that the Forgotten Realms Novels were exactly how events occurred. What point do you go back to prevent the Spellplague?
My submission: Players go back and kill Cyric as a mortal during the Avatar Trilogy, which in turn prevents Mystra’s Assassination possibly preventing the Spellplague.
What do you got? 
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 20:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
I am coming out of DM-ing retirement for a weekend. Let me catch you up. Real life, we stopped playing about 15 years ago, but are looking to do a reunion game over a weekend about a year from now.
For the campaign the PC's entered a magical stasis in the first month of year of the Shadows, right before the Avatar Trilogy. The players don’t know they are in stasis yet, although they knew something is up. But in their "bubble" they think they are just entering 2E.
So, I have free reign to bring them out of stasis, right in to 4E (or even 5E if it comes out in time), and let them discover all that has happened, and I am confident they won’t like the events of the Realms when I drop them in Post Spellplague. Their base in Tilverton is gone, and I could go on, but while I don’t post to much, I read enough scroll to be confident you all get the gist.
So, I have looked at some of the lore regarding Time Travel, and I am going to let these poor First Edition AD&D players of mine pursue going back in time and preventing the Spellplague in the first place. It’s going to rely heavily on the player’s knowledge of the novels, and their confidence that they are accurate. But beyond that I am looking to roll with the punches on whatever their course of action is. I am however on the look out for the obvious, and not so obvious. And here is my question…
If your player had a way to go back in time, and was confident that the Forgotten Realms Novels were exactly how events occurred. What point do you go back to prevent the Spellplague?
My submission: Players go back and kill Cyric as a mortal during the Avatar Trilogy, which in turn prevents Mystra’s Assassination possibly preventing the Spellplague.
What do you got?
I think that plan working depends on how much the "kill Mystra plan" was Cyric's doing and how much is owed to Shar. I am assuming Shar was the brains behind the operation. If so, will killing Cyric stop it or will she be able to get someone else (or do it herself)? Was it a plan that was a long time coming, or was Shar presented with a unique situation that meant the plan would succeed at that precise moment and no other? Along that line, is it because Midnight had still not settled into her role and left a hole in her defenses that Shar was able to pinpoint and exploit? If so, maybe stopping Mystra from dying during the Time of Troubles is a better bet. If not, maybe warning the Chosen (who would in turn warn Mystra) might be a good idea. Maybe stopping Shar from absorbing Mask's divinity would prevent her from having the power to pull off the plan? There are a lot of potential variables and I think you would need to completely nail down the how and the why of Mystra being killed before you try to stop it so you have a clear plan of action. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 21:28:14
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That's a can of wyrms you don't want to open.
If such temporal manipulation is/was possible then it's likely happened before. You might alter something which has already been altered to avert a future disaster you cannot yet know.
Cyric was an utterly incompetent yutz, half-insane, deluded, manic, obsessed, impotent ... how can you know that some time-traveller (presumably from a future period) didn't come back to help install useless Cyric as a replacement for some fearsomely competent ruthless megatyrant assassin-god of the tortured dead who would otherwise ascend and, in time, slay all the other gods, Mystra and Shar included? It almost seems as if Cyric was hand-picked for the job, carefully selected from the potential millions because he singularly stood out as the most absolutely extreme failure possible.
I'm sure that when interference across time is involved, some sort of Conservation of Murphy's Law comes into play. The meddler from the future might even be Mystra herself, repeating the tired old "selfless sacrifice to save the world" nonsense, just in an even more spectacular and subtle manner than her predecessors. (I'm still surprised Ilmater, Tyr, Torm, and Tempus don't gang up on Mystra for intruding on their sacred "heroic sacrifice" portfolios, though arguably her being dead might make that difficult for them.)
[Edit]
Having said all that ... it's known that Mystra effectively holds the portfolio of time. She is the final arbiter who authorizes or denies time travel magics, she (or her Chosen agents) police time, disallow, prevent, preserve, or correct events in time to maintain the "natural" flow of history.
So, would Mystra be obligated to prevent temporal abuses which could destroy her nemesis? Cyric, for all his many faults, is still a god, and a particularly powerful one who managed to be a fulcrum point in history. Removing him would affect the Realms profoundly.
Would Cyric, knowing that Mystra's choice in the matter must be compulsory, attempt a typically insane/brilliant/stupid Cyric plot and try to engineer his own death just to dilute Mystra's power or force her to expose a momentary weakness he could exploit? Worse, would Mask somehow weave his shadowy intrigues through it all by manipulating the agents sent to manipulate time, beginning his own plots after he's already set them in motion? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2012 21:56:24 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 21:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
That's a can of wyrms you don't want to open.
If such temporal manipulation is/was possible then it's likely happened before. You might alter something which has already been altered to avert a future disaster you cannot yet know.
Cyric was an utterly incompetent yutz, half-insane, deluded, manic, obsessed, impotent ... how can you know that some time-traveller (presumably from a future period) didn't come back to help install useless Cyric as a replacement for some fearsomely competent ruthless megatyrant assassin-god of the tortured dead who would otherwise ascend and, in time, slay all the other gods, Mystra and Shar included?
I'm sure that when interference across time is involved, some sort of Conservation of Murphy's Law comes into play.
[Edit]
Having said all that ... it's known that Mystra effectively holds the portfolio of time. She is the final arbiter who authorizes or denies time travel magics, she (or her Chosen agents) police time, disallow, prevent, preserve, or correct any events to maintain the "natural" flow of history.
So, would Mystra be obligated to prevent temporal abuses which could destroy her nemesis?
Would Cyric, knowing that Mystra's choice in the matter must be compulsory, attempt a typically insane/brilliant/stupid Cyric plot and try to engineer his own death just to dilute Mystra's power or force her to expose a momentary weakness he could exploit? Worse, would Mask somehow weave his shadowy intrigues through it all by manipulating the agents sent to manipulate time?
Isn’t Murphy a 18th Level DM who said the past is obdurate? 
I am using slade and Jim Butler, who covered time travel - Netheril - Empire of Magic boxed set - Pg 13. Also, Steven E. Shend, and Kevin Melka covered time travel in Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves – Pg 3
I am not debating if it’s a good idea to spill the can of worms. I am confident that the players will kick that can of worms twice.. So it’s really a matter that if your PC were committing to go back to a point in time depicted in a novel, which would you pick to prevent the Spellplague.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 18:33:14
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The problem is, if you go back to the ToT, you obliterate PoL and Crucible.
I think what you would need to do, to effect the outcome but not change anything canonically is somehow parry Cyric's 'killing blow'. Even replacing Azuth's staff would not work, because then it shouldn't have had the power to kill Mystra. Real Staff, Real Cyric... effect the blow
All canon remains intact, if Mystra was mortally wounded, and vanished. You have provided hope, without changing anything else (only the precise moment the world came crashing down).
To me, canon is the Timestream (Temporal Prime) itself - you can only deflect it a little, not change it entirely. It always finds a way to steer itself back on course.
Killing Cyric while mortal would change too much - the butterfly effect could make things worse, or even cause a paradox (the hero not even being born). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2012 18:33:42 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 22:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem is, if you go back to the ToT, you obliterate PoL and Crucible.
I think what you would need to do, to effect the outcome but not change anything canonically is somehow parry Cyric's 'killing blow'. Even replacing Azuth's staff would not work, because then it shouldn't have had the power to kill Mystra. Real Staff, Real Cyric... effect the blow
All canon remains intact, if Mystra was mortally wounded, and vanished. You have provided hope, without changing anything else (only the precise moment the world came crashing down).
To me, canon is the Timestream (Temporal Prime) itself - you can only deflect it a little, not change it entirely. It always finds a way to steer itself back on course.
Killing Cyric while mortal would change too much - the butterfly effect could make things worse, or even cause a paradox (the hero not even being born).
I simply have to bone up on Spellplague. Where was Cyric's killing blow delivered?
I am thinking in terms of what a PC would be able to accomplish with only the advantage of knowledge and a time portal. If this were Napoleon isn't it better to off him while attending Autun in 1779 then waiting till 1813?
(Yes, of course I looked that up)
Edit, always better to never mention Bad Guys from WW2 |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
Edited by - Thrasymachus on 13 Jan 2012 01:33:38 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem is, if you go back to the ToT, you obliterate PoL and Crucible.
I think what you would need to do, to effect the outcome but not change anything canonically is somehow parry Cyric's 'killing blow'. Even replacing Azuth's staff would not work, because then it shouldn't have had the power to kill Mystra. Real Staff, Real Cyric... effect the blow
All canon remains intact, if Mystra was mortally wounded, and vanished. You have provided hope, without changing anything else (only the precise moment the world came crashing down).
To me, canon is the Timestream (Temporal Prime) itself - you can only deflect it a little, not change it entirely. It always finds a way to steer itself back on course.
Killing Cyric while mortal would change too much - the butterfly effect could make things worse, or even cause a paradox (the hero not even being born).
I simply have to bone up on Spellplague. Where was Cyric's killing blow delivered?
I am thinking in terms of what a PC would be able to accomplish with only the advantage of knowledge and a time portal. If this were Napoleon isn't it better to off him while attending Autun in 1779 then waiting till 1813?
(Yes, of course I looked that up)
Edit, always better to never mention Bad Guys from WW2
Well, based on a vision that a mortal had, we are to believe that (metaphorically, perhaps) Cyric and Shar were let into Dweomerheart. Shar did a dance, Azuth got hot for it and dropped his staff, and a mortal grabbed the staff which was passed to Cyric. *WHACK!*
Better to stop the whole entire thing by preventing Mystra#1 from trying to climb the celestial stair during the ToT, where Helm murderized her. Or take up the god-blade that was (ahem) given to Cyric as a mortal, and kill Cyric with it.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:09:59
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Helm was just following orders.
(A more circumlocutive manner of not mentioning Bad Guys from WW2.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2012 02:12:56 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Helm was just following orders.
(A more circumlocutive manner of not mentioning Bad Guys from WW2.)
Right, but he was still a full god and Mystra was de-powered. Helm could've just blocked her. He didn't have to slice and dice the poor thing.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:30:13
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| Helm not very bright. Helm have sword and follow orders. |
[/Ayrik] |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:02:51
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Pull a Skynet. Send an assassin after Cyric's prostitute mother. Follow it up with a Ripley by nuking her corpse from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 13 Jan 2012 03:03:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:19:35
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And then you will meet Cyric's orphaned older brother Melric, who is much smarter, and much more psychotic. You'd end up with the Realms version of 'The Joker'.
You can't avoid the future, you can't derail it... the best you can hope for is to delay it just a bit.
And sometimes you can make things worse. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 04:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Pull a Skynet. Send an assassin after Cyric's prostitute mother. Follow it up with a Ripley by nuking her corpse from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.
If you stick with the first Terminator and believe the time loop idea, Skynet would've been better off by not sending a Terminator back so John would've never been born as his father was from the future as well. They screwed themselves with that time travel idea. Now, thanks to sequels, Skynet has created a series of alternate timelines where they are more and more advanced by the time they get around to doing the time warp again (what's so hard, it's just a jump to the left...) and their ever more advanced killing machines continue to fail to kill Conner. Conner, poor guy, is clearly being warped by continuing temporal tampering. Just look at how he looks from one movie to the next. Even his wife caught some of the blowback.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 15:10:42
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Everyone knows Skynet ended with The Matrix.
The machines need us - even they eventually realize that.
As for Cyric, like I said, the further back in time you go, the more distortion you will experience. To go back before he was born could create an entirely different timeline (or several, like what happened in Terminator).
Or you could be just about to kill Cyric's mommy, and Shar appears in front of you and says, "uh-uh-uh {wagging her finger}, I have planes for this one". I really think if you try to kill a deity before it ascended to godhood, there would be some sort of 'temporal police' or some-such there to stop you. Thats why I say deflecting the killing blow may be possible, but eliminating Cyric from time altogether probably isn't.
This thread just gave me an interesting notion. Mystra 1.0 had time in her portfolio (not sure if Mystryl did), but what if Mystra 2.0 (Midnight) ignored that aspect of her portfolio, and Shar managed to snatch it from her? THAT would explain a lot. Shar needed Time to forge her Dark Prophesy, and couldn't do so until the ToT (when Mystra fell, and Time was 'up for grabs').
Shar might have been there all along, making sure Cyric's mommy slept with a certain agent of hers, making sure Cyric survived to adulthood, making sure Kelemvor arrived in the nick-of-time to save him form those giants, and even befuddling Bane so that Cyric was able to 'get over' on him. She probably put Godsbane in his hand.
Hmmm... what if she forged Godsbane? 
Maybe we got it backwards - maybe Mask was an aspect of the sword (think about it - a sentient artifact that absorbs godly energy - its bound to eventually become a deity in its own right). Thats why Cyric was unable to detect his presence within his own domain - that WAS his true form! 
Mystra and Cyric - two 'tools' (artifacts) created as weapons in an eternal struggle between light & dark. I think I hit upon this notion once before, but from a slightly different angle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 15:13:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 16:01:41
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Nah, the machines don't need us at all. Organic vats filled with photosynthesis-engineered algea would produce far greater energy yields per unit mass/volume than clumsy fragile finicky troublesome humans - assuming the Matrix is simply attempting to maximize energy production. If the Matrix also requires organic components for interaction, self-purpose, control, cruelty, compassion ... well, then human subjugation would be necessary.
Who forged Godsbane? I'd always assumed Mask caused the weapon to become manifest as an avatar or vessel. But perhaps he didn't create the physical telesma itself, he might have chosen an existing sword (mundane or magical) and invested it with his divine power, much like a god's avatar can simply assume someone else's body rather than form a new one. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 16:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Nah, the machines don't need us at all. Organic vats filled with photosynthesis-engineered algea would produce far greater energy yields per unit mass/volume than clumsy fragile finicky troublesome humans - assuming the Matrix is simply attempting to maximize energy production. If the Matrix also requires organic components for interaction, self-purpose, control, cruelty, compassion ... well, then human subjugation would be necessary.
You need sunlight for photosynthesis and the sky from the Matrix was scorched by the humans with nukes i believe. Algae is awesome though. On our own planet most of the oxygen in the atmosphere comes from the algae in the sea and not the plantlife on land. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 17:08:41
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SPOILER WARNING - Broadway play "Wicked"
@Ayrik - Except the humans "burned the sky" so that the solar power (and thus photosynthesis) the machines needed would not work. Hence enslavement and harvesting of biomolecular energy.
Ok, onto the real discussion. I like MT's idea of simply preventing the killing blow, or more precisely, prevent fatality of the killing blow. Have you ever seen the Broadway play "Wicked"? It turns out the WWotW wasn't really all that wicked, just misunderstood, and was actually friends (and roomates at witch academy) with Glynda. They cook up a scheme to make it LOOK like she dies when Dorothy tosses the bucket of water on her but she really just disappears and lives happily elsewhere in the future.
Expanding on that idea, your PC's, with their knowledge of the future, could set up something similar with Mystra. Even allowing the blow to fall but, paying no attention to the man behind the curtain, the blow is not fatal. Mystra, greviously wounded and recovering from hiding is unable to maintain the weave and convulses the weave to give the appearance of a fatal blow while limiting the full effect. Spellplague-like symptoms occur but at a vastly reduced level.
--Excerpt from Forgotten Realms Wiki entry on Mystra--
In the Year of the Ageless One [1479 DR], a voice Storm Silverhand recognized as Mystra's was heard through the telepathic link shared by all Chosen of Mystra, asking for Elminster.[6] Elminster and Storm encountered what was left of Mystra in a cave in Cormyr. Mystra instructed Elminster to recruit new Chosen and to preserve and strengthen the Art. Later, after Elminster and Storm restored the Simbul's mind, she hinted that Mystra might be brought back through Blueflame items.
--End Excerpt--
The above excerpt leads me to believe that perhaps Mystra 2.0 (Midnight) wasn't fully slain afterall. Also, given Mystryl's immediate reincarnation as Mystra, and then the change from Mystra to Midnight after Helm slayed her during the ToT, the possible survival/immediate reincarnation of Mystra provides a nice continuity. Storm & Elminster could still discover her in Cormyr but rather than needing to be "brought back" she is still greviously wounded and in need of 'healing' by strengthening "The Art" and thereby her followers.
It also stays within canon as much as possible and (I believe upon cursory examination) limits the amount of temporal paradoxes that may result. I'm sure others will point out some flaws in my thinking and I welcome that as always because this topic touches on my pet project as well.
Good Hunting!
EDIT - Blast, Entreri beat me to the POST button! (Your melodrama for today) Curse you! I would've gotten away with it too if not for you slow work computers! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 13 Jan 2012 17:17:35 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 17:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
SPOILER WARNING - Broadway play "Wicked"
@Ayrik - Except the humans "burned the sky" so that the solar power (and thus photosynthesis) the machines needed would not work. Hence enslavement and harvesting of biomolecular energy.
Ok, onto the real discussion. I like MT's idea of simply preventing the killing blow, or more precisely, prevent fatality of the killing blow. Have you ever seen the Broadway play "Wicked"? It turns out the WWotW wasn't really all that wicked, just misunderstood, and was actually friends (and roomates at witch academy) with Glynda. They cook up a scheme to make it LOOK like she dies when Dorothy tosses the bucket of water on her but she really just disappears and lives happily elsewhere in the future.
Expanding on that idea, your PC's, with their knowledge of the future, could set up something similar with Mystra. Even allowing the blow to fall but, paying no attention to the man behind the curtain, the blow is not fatal. Mystra, greviously wounded and recovering from hiding is unable to maintain the weave and convulses the weave to give the appearance of a fatal blow while limiting the full effect. Spellplague-like symptoms occur but at a vastly reduced level.
--Excerpt from Forgotten Realms Wiki entry on Mystra--
In the Year of the Ageless One [1479 DR], a voice Storm Silverhand recognized as Mystra's was heard through the telepathic link shared by all Chosen of Mystra, asking for Elminster.[6] Elminster and Storm encountered what was left of Mystra in a cave in Cormyr. Mystra instructed Elminster to recruit new Chosen and to preserve and strengthen the Art. Later, after Elminster and Storm restored the Simbul's mind, she hinted that Mystra might be brought back through Blueflame items.
--End Excerpt--
The above excerpt leads me to believe that perhaps Mystra 2.0 (Midnight) wasn't fully slain afterall. Also, given Mystryl's immediate reincarnation as Mystra, and then the change from Mystra to Midnight after Helm slayed her during the ToT, the possible survival/immediate reincarnation of Mystra provides a nice continuity.
It also stays within canon as much as possible and (I believe upon cursory examination) limits the amount of temporal paradoxes that may result. I'm sure others will point out some flaws in my thinking and I welcome that as always because this topic touches on my pet project as well.
Good Hunting!
EDIT - Blast, Entreri beat me to the POST button! (Your melodrama for today) Curse you! I would've gotten away with it too if not for you slow work computers!
lol sorry!  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:58:46
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Funny enough, I am also running a 'Terminator' style time travel Realms adventure and I am grappling with exactly this issue.
My PCs, who are from 'the future' (now, the year 2012, well more properly 2010 when we started this game) have been catapulted to the Realms in 1369 (on Halaster's Higharvestide) with just enough info to know a Spellplague was coming, but not HOW or exactly WHEN it happened (and I left them to decide if they even cared about that).
The twist (as those who read my longwinded post back in December) for me is that my PCs are from Earth and are playing themselves dropped into the Realms 'Chronicles of Narnia' style. I call it a 'Play Yourself' game (and I've been running them for years in one form or another).
A few of the core gamers (there are ten in the game) have devoted themselves to Mystra/Midnight and have decided that they are obviously 'here to stop the Spellplague'. I have wished them luck with that and the powers that be (Mystra herself, her Chosen, etc) are observing and testing them to determine if they are ultimately friend or foe...
Along the way I get to grapple with two classic sci-fi fantasy concepts, 'what can time travelers do to impact the future?' and 'can offworlders do things that natives cannot to make changes to a world?'. The plot is a sight more complex than I have let on here (owing to time, a desire not to steal from the original poster, and the fact that players have computers too...), but rest assured everything will not be as simple as it first appears (and will also give me some time to see what I think of the 5E Realms).
I do have one suggestion though. Consider giving your PCs something 'special' other than just status as time travelers. Otherwise they are just slaves to the time travel rules as written for the Realms (only one year at a time, never revisit that year, start first day of that year/end last day, limits to what you can impact, etc). I've given mine their status as Earthlings and 'mysterious magical marks' (think invisible tattoos) on their chests above their hearts that imbue them with certain cooperative powers (unlockable as they progress in power) and that look quite a lot like the symbols of Mystra, Selune and Eilistraee blended together.
If you have more specific questions or want to kick an idea or two around, PM me. Those players are always on the watch... |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 04:12:25
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Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I like MT's idea of simply preventing the killing blow, or more precisely, prevent fatality of the killing blow.
If the priority is to prevent 100 additional years of Butterfly Effects, the moment of the killing blow seems the optimal choice. But at any point you effect the past, you are going to start butterflies till eternity from that point.
If I am reading you guys right regarding the killing blow option, you have to get your AD&D party to Dweomerheart, and take on the God Cyric to prevent that “killing blow”. Which novel details this?
Versus
Killing Cyric as a mortal with his itinerary detailed in 3 Novels. Downside? About 100 years of extra butterflies.
And either way, there is Shar that you might have to contend with, because she’s what set Cyric in motion. What happens without Cyric available? Does Shar simply choose another puppet; and if so who/what? Does anybody know where Shar was during the Avatar Trilogy, or is there another Shar vulnerable point depicted in another novel?
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
'what can time travelers do to impact the future?'
For my purposes… anything. As it stands know, I am DMing it as the past is not obdurate. The conundrum for me is how can the Players just stop the Spellplague, and nothing else. Second consideration is that the players will want to stay in the Year of Shadows, and maybe just as a happy ending the Wild Magic roll might have some decent modifiers. Or if the Players take the bulls by the horns, maybe they get the Tablets of Fate themselves (they will know the tablets itinerary too), and Ao goes all good genie on them.
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
… I do have one suggestion though. Consider giving your PCs something 'special' other than just status as time travelers. Otherwise they are just slaves to the time travel rules as written for the Realms (only one year at a time, never revisit that year, start first day of that year/end last day, limits to what you can impact, etc).
For myself the constraints will be helpful in putting some limits to what the players can choose. DMing these guys and gals was like herding cats in the 80’s. Now they’re just old cranky cats. YMMV, and for your sake I hope it does.
I have two other related scrolls that I put forth in the “Running the Realms” section…
“Contradictions in Forgotten Realms Novels”
“High Herald Type- Black Ops Kind of Guy/Gal – How”
… for anyone else interested in why a lowly scribe would stab themselves in the eye with their own quill with these kind of scrolls.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 04:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
If I am reading you guys right regarding the killing blow option, you have to get your AD&D party to Dweomerheart, and take on the God Cyric to prevent that “killing blow”. Which novel details this?
Good Question.
None. 
Some novel had the Alu-fiend Aliisza receive a 'vision' of what happened, which you really don't want to hear about (no, seriously - it will just eave you scratching your head). We were told (by the author, IIRC) that the vision was not precisely what happened, but rather, how Aliisza's mind interpreted what she saw (so it was bad, and probably not even accurate).
It involved Shar doing a sexy dance... no, really... I'm serious...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 04:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
If I am reading you guys right regarding the killing blow option, you have to get your AD&D party to Dweomerheart, and take on the God Cyric to prevent that “killing blow”. Which novel details this?
Good Question.
None.
Some novel had the Alu-fiend Aliisza receive a 'vision' of what happened, which you really don't want to hear about (no, seriously - it will just eave you scratching your head). We were told (by the author, IIRC) that the vision was not precisely what happened, but rather, how Aliisza's mind interpreted what she saw (so it was bad, and probably not even accurate).
It involved Shar doing a sexy dance... no, really... I'm serious...
Oh, c'mon now. Spill the beans. Which novel is it? Does the series rhyme with "The Empyrean Odyssey"? |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 05:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I like MT's idea of simply preventing the killing blow, or more precisely, prevent fatality of the killing blow.
If the priority is to prevent 100 additional years of Butterfly Effects, the moment of the killing blow seems the optimal choice. But at any point you effect the past, you are going to start butterflies till eternity from that point.
If I am reading you guys right regarding the killing blow option, you have to get your AD&D party to Dweomerheart, and take on the God Cyric to prevent that “killing blow”. Which novel details this?
Versus
Killing Cyric as a mortal with his itinerary detailed in 3 Novels. Downside? About 100 years of extra butterflies.
And either way, there is Shar that you might have to contend with, because she’s what set Cyric in motion. What happens without Cyric available? Does Shar simply choose another puppet; and if so who/what? Does anybody know where Shar was during the Avatar Trilogy, or is there another Shar vulnerable point depicted in another novel?
I chose the wording I did for a very specific reason. The PC's need not prevent the killing blow from actually falling if they can find a way to limit the lethality of that blow. That means they don't necessarily need to be there to reach out, put a hand on Cyric's shoulder and say, "I'm not so sure that's a good idea and if you decide to try, I'll beat your ears down to your boot tops! Shar and anyone else be damned!"
/speculation on - They take their knowledge of the future, blab the whole tale to Mystra and armed with that knowledge, Mystra is able to protect herself, somewhat, from the full power of the blow and limit the effects felt in Faerun. She then fakes her death and disappears until Storm hears from her in 1479 DR.
I apologize if I didn't explain that line of thought very well in my earlier post.
Have fun and as always...
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 05:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
If I am reading you guys right regarding the killing blow option, you have to get your AD&D party to Dweomerheart, and take on the God Cyric to prevent that “killing blow”. Which novel details this?
Good Question.
None.
Some novel had the Alu-fiend Aliisza receive a 'vision' of what happened, which you really don't want to hear about (no, seriously - it will just eave you scratching your head). We were told (by the author, IIRC) that the vision was not precisely what happened, but rather, how Aliisza's mind interpreted what she saw (so it was bad, and probably not even accurate).
It involved Shar doing a sexy dance... no, really... I'm serious...
Oh, c'mon now. Spill the beans. Which novel is it? Does the series rhyme with "The Empyrean Odyssey"?
It's in The Fractured Sky, the second book of the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy. Almost right at the end.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
It's in The Fractured Sky, the second book of the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy. Almost right at the end.
Thanks again!  |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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The Butterfly Effect 2E through Present day
