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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 23:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<snip> The similarity in the situations is quite clear and unsettling to me. And that would "make it worse."
I concur.
You fix things with a needle & thread.
You break things with a sledgehammer. Its time to put away the sledgehammers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2012 23:06:23 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 23:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Therise: My suggestions aren't entirely *emotional,* though I will confess that part of this is what I *feel* is the right thing to do. They're based on discussions with WotC staffers and other game designers, my observations online and of other games/entertainment products (i.e. comic books, video games, movie reboots, etc), and my long experience working in the setting. *Also* because I feel this is the right course...
How bad are reboots, really?
Crisis on Infinite Earths, isn't that the reboot for DC?
- did their sales drop? how are their sales now?
Take a look at this list, and rather than look at it emotionally (from a personal, individual view), think in terms of whether or not the reboot was a business success:
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, 2002
Battlestar Galactica, 2004
Star Trek, 2009
The Punisher, 2004 and 2008
Batman, to Batman Begins, 2005
James Bond to Casino Royale, 2006
Halloween, 2007
The Fly, 1986
Hulk (movie), 2008
Beyblade to Metal Fusion, 2009
Friday the 13th, 2009
Fullmetal Alchemist to Alchemist: Brotherhood, 2009
Hawaii Five-O, 2010
A Nightmare on Elm Street, 2010
La Femme Nikita to Nikita (TV), 1997 and 2010
Charlie's Angels, 2011
Planet of the Apes, 2011
Superman, many times multiple media
Again, do not think of this from the like/dislike individual perspective of the consumer. Rather, make the decision based on whether or not it was a business success.
You may find that a business success still doesn't personally sit well with you. This is why businesses cannot afford to internally make emotional decisions.
If someone would've pitched me the revamped Battlestar: Galactica, I would have shot it down. I intensely disliked Star Trek 2009. But I'd be a fool to claim that either one of them was a business failure. Both totally revived their IP.
It's not that reboots or retcons are inherently bad, they're not. It's how the reboot is handled, how it's executed. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Jan 2012 23:57:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 00:01:40
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While I agree with you in-principle Therise, and have asked for precisely that for 4 years now (knowing full-well 5e was a-coming), I have to also strip myself of emotional bias and look at this from a business perspective.
And alienating their new customers to get back their old customers would be precisely the same mistake that 4e made. You do not sacrifice what you have for what 'might have been'.
I know there is an old parable about this - the dog and his reflection... something like that. you get the idea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 00:03:17 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 00:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And alienating their new customers to get back their old customers would be precisely the same mistake that 4e made. You do not sacrifice what you have for what 'might have been'.
What concrete data do you have, indicating that a reboot would be poorly received by current or past consumers?
How do you know that it would be bad for business? How do you know that they would be sacrificing even one person?
Just a feeling? 
WotC needs to poll far and wide on this one, and actually get some real numbers.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Jan 2012 00:08:07 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 00:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How bad are reboots, really?
Crisis on Infinite Earths, isn't that the reboot for DC?
- did their sales drop? how are their sales now?
Take a look at this list, and rather than look at it emotionally (from a personal, individual view), think in terms of whether or not the reboot was a business success:
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, 2002
Battlestar Galactica, 2004
Star Trek, 2009
The Punisher, 2004 and 2008
Batman, to Batman Begins, 2005
James Bond to Casino Royale, 2006
Halloween, 2007
Hulk (movie), 2008
Beyblade to Metal Fusion, 2009
Friday the 13th, 2009
Fullmetal Alchemist to Alchemist: Brotherhood, 2009
Hawaii Five-O, 2010
A Nightmare on Elm Street, 2010
La Femme Nikita to Nikita (TV), 1997 and 2010
Charlie's Angels, 2011
Planet of the Apes, 2011
Superman, many times multiple media
Therise I should point that there is big difference for most of those (and at least one of them isn't a reboot). Most of those franchises had been dead for quite a while. He Man, Battlestar, Hawaii Five-O, and Planet of the Apes are seperated by a decade or more from their source. The various comic book movies are a completely different animal. Is Punisher 2004 a reboot of the 80s movie? I believe it is simply another adaptation of the source material. Likewise for Batman, Superman, Hulk, the upcoming Spider-Man, etc. FMA:B isn't a reboot. FMA hit a point where it ran out of material to adapt because the manga wasn't finished yet so they had to wing it after a certain point. FMA:B is the adaptation that came later that stuck closer to the source. The Trek reboot is a success so far (which, in fairness, is all business cares about). I'll call it a real success when it passes 10 movies and 5 TV series and becomes a cultural icon, instead of just copying one. Will the reboot lead to something as well known and wide spread as the original? I sincerely doubt it, and I liked the reboot movie. Likewise with Bond. 2 movies don't really compare to well over 20. Then again, there is a fan theory that can actually put all of the Bond movies into one universe.
What I am getting at is that the closest example is comic books. They reboot with the old material right there still on the shelf. The others usually involve a time gap in the real world time. The others are also different mediums, meaning different audiences with different thresholds for change. I believe that makes a difference.
I should also point out that comics, while in my opinion the best example, are still an imperfect example. The companies know that issue number 1 of just about anything will sell, making them view the reboot as a legitamate option. Sometimes they make a new issue number 1 without actually rebooting. They also know that new fans are their life blood. There is, from what I have read, a fairly high turn over rate of comic book fans. So, in an attempt to make people think they don't need to know what has happened over the last several decades to "get" the current setting they reboot. "They" in this case is primarily DC who is known for rebooting most or all of their continuity. Crisis was to consolidate alternate time lines. 4E FR was an attempt at this strategy. Can the setting attempt number 2?
I'm not saying reboots never work. I think they obviously can. But, I think they have to be done well, and at the right time. If they had stopped producing Realms material for a few years and suddenly came out saying they were going to start up again, maybe that would work. Then again, when Devil's Due started publishing G.I. Joe comics again after Marvel stopped several years earlier they had the same amount of time pass in story as had passed in the real world and just picked up where Marvel left off. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 13 Jan 2012 00:26:41 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 00:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
...I'm not saying reboots never work. I think they obviously can. But, I think they have to be done well, and at the right time.
This is really the point I was trying to make. That, and that from the point of the consumer, it's easy to say "a reboot of XYZ?! That's crazy, it'll never sell and it'll destroy the IP forever!!!"
The list came from the wiki definition page for reboots. *shrug* I haven't seen everything on that list, so I can't (and don't really want to) argue what meets criteria for a reboot. It's just that I want to get people to think a little more critically about the near-total lack of data we have in all this.
Rather than getting bogged down in what person A or B thinks might ruin the Realms IP, let's concentrate on telling WotC exactly what we want as individuals - and why.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Jan 2012 00:43:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:06:12
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I guess you can call it 'a feeling', but I like to think of it as a product of a of long years; creating, playing, and running a business (and working for many others), reading news articles, and absorbing and assimilating all possible data available.
I see 'trends', and I just 'feel' that rebooting to the OGB would really piss-off the 4e fans who diligently bought all the 4e books and defended it against the naysayers. This would be like a slap in the face to them. Are enough old fans wiling to come back, to make THAT worth the risk? It would be 4e all over again - no-one will trust them anymore.
Call the '4e people' whatever you want, but they were loyal - you shouldn't trade that for anything. Not even The Realms are worth that (because if it fails, the Realms may be gone for good the next time around). We accused WotC of 'caving' to the desires of the naysayers, and wouldn't they be doing precisely that if they listened to us instead now?
You think I like this? I have been saying all along give us a reboot. At this time, however, I have to take into consideration they are a business - one I would like to have around awhile, since they control our access to FR lore.
I think a compromise is the best possible solution. Not the perfect solution, because everyone would have their own 'perfect solution'. The assumption must be made at the beginning that you will not be able to make everyone happy, so you have to analyze the situation and figure out what would make the most people happy.
But thats what these poles are all about - they are asking. I'm not even saying they should listen to me, personally - they should listen to everyone, and see which opinions have the strongest trends.
As for the cosmology - they can't really reset that, because the changes brought in with 4e were retroactive in that regard (one of the few real retcons they made). So I say leave it - patch it, explain things better (why did people perceive things differently before?), but don't put it back, because I think that would just make them look indecisive at this point. No-one with any brains follows an indecisive leader - better to follow-through on bad decisions, then to not stand firm on anything. That road leads to mistrust.
You ever see a squirrel dart back-and-forth in front of your car, because it can't decide which way to go? That squirrel winds up dead, usually. Pick a path and run with it, I say. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 01:10:39 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:26:25
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The OGB was set in the 1350s DR. What would you say if the 5E Realms was indeed a re-boot of sorts? That is, having a jump-off point of 1320 or so DR ... Just musing is all ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:28:20
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| all I can say is fix the mess and move on with it. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess you can call it 'a feeling', but I like to think of it as a product of a of long years; creating, playing, and running a business (and working for many others), reading news articles, and absorbing and assimilating all possible data available.
The longer the investment in something, the stronger the feeling. And as the Sith say, strong passions need to be understood, mastered, seen for what they truly are.
quote:
I see 'trends', and I just 'feel' that rebooting to the OGB would really piss-off the 4e fans who diligently bought all the 4e books and defended it against the naysayers. This would be like a slap in the face to them. Are enough old fans wiling to come back, to make THAT worth the risk? It would be 4e all over again - no-one will trust them anymore.
Call the '4e people' whatever you want, but they were loyal...
Are they really ALL loyal, to the same degree? Or is this just more "us vs. them" thinking that 4E's launch engendered?
If 50,000 old fans come back, and only 3000 4E fans decide to leave, what's better for business?
quote:
...you shouldn't trade that for anything. Not even The Realms are worth that (because if it fails, the Realms may be gone for good the next time around). We accused WotC of 'caving' to the desires of the naysayers, and wouldn't they be doing precisely that if they listened to us instead now?
Do not be motivated by fear of loss. Understand it, master it, and search for truth. In the absence of data, we have no real method of getting at the truth. Therefore, the best thing to do is to just tell them what you really want. Be brutally honest with WotC, don't let worries of future possibilities get in the way of telling them exactly what you want (or don't) in the Realms.
quote:
You think I like this? I have been saying all along give us a reboot. At this time, however, I have to take into consideration they are a business - one I would like to have around awhile, since they control our access to FR lore.
They'll take care of the business. You take care of you.
quote:
As for the cosmology - they can't really reset that, because the changes...
Of course they can. This is fantasy.
quote:
You ever see a squirrel dart back-and-forth in front of your car, because it can't decide which way to go? That squirrel winds up dead, usually. Pick a path and run with it, I say.
Squirrel got the pink slip. Hedgehog and honey badger are now running things. And we all know about honey badger, he only cares about the honey.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:47:17
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Ayrik the DM: "Hey'd, you guys hear? They're starting work on 5E."
Ayrik's players: "So what? It's only going to make the 4E books a little cheaper. We don't even use our 4E stuff. Forget 5E, it's wasting time - let's start playing." |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:56:15
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| I really do like the idea of the timeline approach that has been mentioned, where campaign groups can jump in anywhere. And if WotC adopted that, I think it could be great fun. Imagine having adventures or supplemental books written for things like the Fall of Tethyamar or Mithril Hall, the Tethyr Wars, the Shoon Imperium, Lashan's War etc. You could set the timeline as Year 1, DR all the way up to 1485 DR and let designers start filling in the gaps and use all the interesting history that has been created for the Forgotten Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 01:58:44
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Half the time I just don't get your references. I must be getting old.
Also not a big SW fan (I'm a ST guy).
Anyhow, in this instance, what I want, and what I think would work are two different things. At least re-booting to 1386 would be a continuation of the 1e/2e/3e era. I'd be able to deal with that, much more so then if they advanced it even further (beyond 4e).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The OGB was set in the 1350s DR. What would you say if the 5E Realms was indeed a re-boot of sorts? That is, having a jump-off point of 1320 or so DR ... Just musing is all ...
-- George Krashos
I find that very intriguing, actually. Hadn't even considered going earlier.
A young King Azoun (that gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 01:59:50 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The OGB was set in the 1350s DR. What would you say if the 5E Realms was indeed a re-boot of sorts? That is, having a jump-off point of 1320 or so DR ... Just musing is all ...
-- George Krashos
I'd love it.
Here's the thing that is missing from this debate. Nostalgia sells. Big. There are far more gamers like me out there (mid 30's, professional, been away for too long) than there are current 4th edition gamers (this is a fact, the numbers are huge). Resetting to the OGB/say a 2nd edition ruleset (and I would personally just re-release the 2nd edition PHB, DMG, and MM) would bring in gobs of nostalgia money. And since we have a) far more money than the newer gamers (who typically are of a younger demo) and b) have kids who we would love to get into the game WE REMEMBERED, Hasbro wins big (see their success with the re-release of the old GI JOE toys, or the Star Wars ones in the 80s packaging). This would also save Hasbro gobs of cash, as there would be no "development" costs (or art and such) and thus the margins would increase dramatically. And don't give me the "the old gamers wouldn't come back" line. I know if the original stuff was available in mint/new condition again i would buy it. Also, remember that my generation is also much less likely to pirate stuff off the net.
My recommendation to Hasbro/WoTC (which will be spelled out in a much more articulately written email) is going to be to suggest that they just reset to beginning of 2nd edition (in terms of rulesets) and that they reset the Realms to either a) the OGB or b) the 1st 2nd edition box (plus FR Adventures).
I think they will have better profits and longevity if they treat D&D more like a traditional game and quit trying to "update" it, as this way the old gamers will always feel at home and be much more likely to help bring in new gamers, rather than resetting the rules every 5 years and alienating a fanase each time (and yes, I think it would be good business to risk the alienation of the 4th edition players to get back the better demographic of the older gamers and their kids). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:15:18
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| lol, D&D 0.5E? That'd be a real prize for the marketing dept. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol, D&D 0.5E? That'd be a real prize for the marketing dept.
The real question is what brave and stupid soul on the D&D team is going to seriously push for the idea that sees all of them out of a job. If you go back and stop updating you don't need employees, you need a printing press.
And Apex, you need to work on your G.I.Joe and Star Wars comparisons. G.I.Joe is already past remaking old figures (and it should be noted, they were updated, not the figures released in the 80s and they stopped at around 87/88) and into all new variations that appear to be based on a cartoon. Forward progress. Star Wars may be on old looking packaging but they are relatively new figures, and they are still moving ever forward with Clone Wars figures. And that nostalgic packaging also covers the prequels. And the EU. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 13 Jan 2012 02:21:44 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol, D&D 0.5E? That'd be a real prize for the marketing dept.
The real question is what brave and stupid soul on the D&D team is going to seriously push for the idea that sees all of them out of a job. If you go back and stop updating you don't need employees, you need a printing press.
And Apex, you need to work on your G.I.Joe and Star Wars comparisons. G.I.Joe is already past remaking old figures (and it should be noted, they were updated, not the figures released in the 80s and they stopped at around 87/88) and into all new variations that appear to be based on a cartoon. Forward progress. Star Wars may be on old looking packaging but they are relatively new figures, and they are still moving ever forward with Clone Wars figures. And that nostalgic packaging also covers the prequels. And the EU.
Hence why the email is going to go to hasbro as well. It may very well behoove hasbro to get rid of "development" and go back to the previously designed game that ihas better margins. Developers need to develop in order to keep their jobs and sometimes development isn't good for a game |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The OGB was set in the 1350s DR. What would you say if the 5E Realms was indeed a re-boot of sorts? That is, having a jump-off point of 1320 or so DR ... Just musing is all ...
-- George Krashos
That'd be my dream reboot. In addition to that, I'd hope that they'd have new support in the Realms for that period.
So many things would then be "maybes" instead of certainties. No Time of Troubles, no wild/dead magic zones, no Shadow Weave, no Spellplague... hey, sounds pretty familiar to my homebrew Realms!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:56:32
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quote:
Hence why the email is going to go to hasbro as well. It may very well behoove hasbro to get rid of "development" and go back to the previously designed game that ihas better margins. Developers need to develop in order to keep their jobs and sometimes development isn't good for a game
Somehow I could imagine those exact words being spoken by Vito Corleone in between bites of linguini. Presumably to an audience of mafia hitmen. |
[/Ayrik] |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 02:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The OGB was set in the 1350s DR. What would you say if the 5E Realms was indeed a re-boot of sorts? That is, having a jump-off point of 1320 or so DR ... Just musing is all ...
-- George Krashos
I fully stand in support of a 1320s reboot.
----------------
For the "We don't know how the 4E FR is doing!" crowd:
We may not know specifically how FR4E is doing, but we know very specific and troubling information regarding the 4E brand as a whole. 4E is failing. For the first time in the history of Table Top RPGs, a non-D&D title has the largest share of the market.
The simple fact of the matter is that FR4E simply CANNOT match FR3E by virtue of the fact that it cannot exceed the limitations of the brand to which it is bound. In the strictest possible economic sense, FR was better of in 3E.
If when 4E hit and Paizo set off making 3.75 you were offered the choice of pursuing a living Paizo 3.75E Realms (with no spell plague and no multi century jump) or following the current 4E Realms which would you choose?
I have to believe that the overwhelming majority of Candlekeeps audience would adhere to the more orthodox and familiar 3.75E FR. I think that you can safely make this assumption since it is also true of the rule system to which the campaign setting is attached. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:06:29
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Well, really, we don't know how anything is doing. As far as I'm concerned, there are only a handful of voices here who state real facts (they all work for Wizbro), and everybody else (including me) is just the peanut gallery full of speculation and argument.
We know WotC has uttered the mystic runes "5E" ... but they left the incantation hanging, to build up energy, without giving it any fixed parameters or effects. It might not even be D&D at all, for all we know it could be called Monsters & Munchkins.
The "simple facts" are that people like (most of) us who are outside of Wizbro's organization are not privy to the actual numbers which state the simple facts. Perception of 3E outselling 4E is purely anecdotal unless supported by real facts instead of simple facts. I happen to much prefer 3E over 4E, and I agree the most people playing 3.75E would agree. Various designers within Wizbro have come and gone with what seems like disturbing turnover in the last year and recent months. Are there any other relevant facts? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2012 03:16:13 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:15:10
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I wonder how soon we will hear of what direction the Realms will be taking. Think we'll know by spring or summertime? I get so excited thinking about the many possibilities this could turn into. Then again I also have a deep seated dread that the decision will be dictated by the insanity I've read on WotC's boards last nite. I hope they strip the entire MMO feel of classes out of the game again. If people want an MMO, they are going to log into Warcraft or Star Wars, I know I will.
Class balance? Another common whine from my years of playing Warcraft. Don't care either. Once you whip out the nerf bat and balance the crap out of every class, you end up with roles that all look and act the same, with just different flavoring to it. And that is boring. The entire point of playing a caster is the delayed gratification of getting those higher level spells. I'd aim for the 2nd edition feel. I still remember my dwarf warrior tearing the faces off stone giants when hasted...don't recall ever having problems with melee classes competing with the mage. 3rd went off the deep-end when casters got higher levels and I've yet to have a campaign that reached higher levels so can't say how things go there. And I won't even touch 4th edition.
Sorry for the rant and I am a little scatter-brained so maybe I'm just gibbering. ;) It might be nostalgia, but I really do wish for a return to 2nd edition's simple days, warts and all. 3rd edition did do alot of things I liked, but I felt and still do feel like it is so rules-heavy and frankly complicated to get going. From what I've seen, we've really just been 'winging' some of our adventures like back in 2E days because we don't want waste time looking up a specific rule in the book. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:16:00
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They will still need to re-write all those old-edition rule books for the 5e rules (unless they manage to make ALL the setting material edition-neutral, which is possible).
I still see problems though. My last campaign was set in the 1380's, so as to avoid canon snafus. Khelben was part of one of my storylines.
Guess what? You CAN'T avoid continuity glitches, no matter how hard you try (and I really tried - thats why I didn't set my game in the 'RSE era'). I never thought they'd kill off Khelben. I avoided all the ohter Chosen, but not him. Never saw that coming. {sigh}
As someone who has run into this wall, all I'm saying is it will happen. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, really, we don't know how anything is doing. As far as I'm concerned, there are only a handful of voices here who state known facts (they all work for Wizbro), and everybody else (including me) is just the peanut gallery full of speculation and argument.
We know WotC has uttered the mystic runes "5E" ... but they left the incantation hanging, to build up energy, without giving it any fixed parameters or effects. It might not even be D&D at all, for all we know it could be called Monsters & Munchkins.
If Wizards had the least bit of confidence in its product's ability to increase its market share, you wouldn't have heard the faintest whisper of 5E. New edition rumors have a negative impact on sales since people don't want to purchase products that are soon to become obsolete. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:23:26
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Continuity is always possible in magical world constrained only by imagination.
Some convolutions around the basic "it was all just a dream" (or "it was all just a nightmare") deus ex plotline. An exciting twist might be that the dreamer was Ao or whomever else you prefer ... a being of such power that its memories and musings would manifest as alternate realities. Five Mystras dreaming five worlds, each some version of the Realms vaguely connected yet forever apart from the others.
Plah. Sappy fiction won't buy me over, no more than politicals who answer questions with amusing allegorical tales will ever buy me, promises in the land of business are immaterial ... results matter, numbers and facts which can be proven matter, quality times quantity matters. My question is whether 5E will deliver a better D&D and the Realms, or just another "non-canon" world and ruleset which will never be popular or played by the people at my table. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2012 03:26:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 03:41:27
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Speaking of which, I wonder what they will do with all the 'non-setting' material from 5e. It would be a shame to just chuck all of that out.
Now I REALLY wished I had posted my Nentir Vale conversion map - it was a near-perfect fit.
I also have to wonder about all the other settings - will they only be supporting FR? I'm not sure I would like that either (although better then if they only supported Eberron LOL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 04:18:19
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ick... I jsut hope that they make it hte core world and have the dieties listed in the phb.
I'd rather they not do that at all.
make the phb, but in the diety section write this blah blah blah is where the nake of yor deity will be and that all deities will be lsited in each campaign setting...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 04:38:15
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I'll put on my detective hat for a moment and hopefully ease the minds of some. Have you noticed that a certain someone (and certain key friends of a certain someone) have been awfully quiet around here lately? Might you also have noticed that that very same someone started the year off with an announcement about how busy they were going to be around now?
I'd say that the reboot of the Realms is at least partially in the hands of the best possible person for the job. So take heart.
On the subject of the possible 'open time frame Realms approach' and the 'back to the 1320-1350s' remarks, but golly gee whiz, didn't I say something about that very concept in a long winded post or two not too long ago? And I was pish poshed. Huh. Lol.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 04:46:59
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In order to do it right, and NOT offend any fans (many folks play in that 'non-setting' of 4e), they would have to have generic deity-listings in the PHB. Like 'Sun God', 'Storm God', 'Nature God', etc, etc... with associated spheres/portfolios/whatever.
Either that, or just present us with a generic cleric a'la 1e/2e, and then leave the 'god stuff' in the setting books. Otherwise, they will alienate everyone using the generic/GH setting material in the 4e books.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the first one I suggested, but only for a few archtypical deities. We can get more setting specific ones down the road. Seriously, how much difference is there between Lathander and Pelor? We don't need lore in the rulebooks, just rules. That could solve one of the problems right there.
The other solution is to create PHBs and DMGs for each setting, the way other companies can and do, but I think that would be very cost-prohibitive in WotC's case. Better to just keep the fluff and crunch separate.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 04:48:06 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 05:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In order to do it right, and NOT offend any fans (many folks play in that 'non-setting' of 4e), they would have to have generic deity-listings in the PHB. Like 'Sun God', 'Storm God', 'Nature God', etc, etc... with associated spheres/portfolios/whatever.
Either that, or just present us with a generic cleric a'la 1e/2e, and then leave the 'god stuff' in the setting books. Otherwise, they will alienate everyone using the generic/GH setting material in the 4e books.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the first one I suggested, but only for a few archtypical deities. We can get more setting specific ones down the road. Seriously, how much difference is there between Lathander and Pelor? We don't need lore in the rulebooks, just rules. That could solve one of the problems right there.
The other solution is to create PHBs and DMGs for each setting, the way other companies can and do, but I think that would be very cost-prohibitive in WotC's case. Better to just keep the fluff and crunch separate.
I think this totally works. A Storm God for a generic setting may be one thing but for Faerun, his name is Talos. Didn't deities used to have different aspects or aliases across different worlds? Not such a hard stretch. Paladine from Dragonlance was the counterpart or same as Bahamut etc. |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
Topic Locked
