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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:08:10
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Poll Question:
Let's think about what input we should give them for the Forgotten Realms in 5E. If you had your way, what would you do for the Realms as part of 5E's launch?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:30:37
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| My Realms are the 2E Realms, and i could care less how many times WoTC feels they need to change them. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 09 Jan 2012 19:31:06 |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:31:41
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| I'd go for keeping the Spellplague as it is right now, so things don't get too weird about it getting reverted and so, but somehow fix some of the changes that were made, specially the most crazy ones. there's no need to do a time travel to avoid it from passing, thing that, otherwise would create a time-paradox, but somehow to, although keeping it, recovering as much of your old flavour as you can. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:32:05
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I put that I would keep them how they are because I think it is closest to what I would do. I would keep the changes, but I would reverse some of the less popular ones. However, I would not do this via retcon or time jump. For instance, it appears that Mystra will be coming back. So, there is nothing stopping other gods from reemerging if that's what people want. But, to bring them back via retcon or time jump is just a slap in the face to current fans. There are plenty of ways to "fix" most problems (beyond the 100 year time jump) in the current time without obliterating what has already come to pass in the 100 year time jump.
I believe that approach is far better than reversing time. That is a bad idea. It negates current novels, which will upset fans and I assume the authors of those novels. This is important from a business standpoint because going back in time is a huge gamble. It is WotC putting it all on the idea that most of the current fans won't mind the books they have read for the past few years now being a bad dream and hoping that old fans will come flocking back. This has back fired about every time I have seen a company try it. You don't sacfrifice current customers for hypothetical "other" customers, it's a dumb move (just look at their last attempt). The better approach is to try to keep current fans (the ones actualy buying things) and try to get old fans back and the compromise of slowly reshaping the present to more closesly resemble the past is a better approach than to wipe out the timeline.
As an addition to this, they should publish novels and suppliments that cover other parts of the timeline and not just the present. This way people who only like the 1300s era, for instance, have something to buy and aren't being forced to buy into the 1400s timeline if they don't want to. And, the hope is, current fans will also buy the book set in the "past". This is an approach that won't further split the fanbase by forcing yet another major change. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:35:20
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what I'd do.
well i'm not sure.
the timeline jump and spellplague together was abad idea.
yeah I'd get rid of it. killing mystra off for every rule change is a bad idea and is lame.
I'd return the deity list to as it was in 3e for sure though.
and make the 4e spell plague an alt world under that book of shar thing, and just move on with the new edition as the spell plague never happened via being thwarted.
I'd also add that mystra never died and midnight never became a goddess. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:35:52
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Coming from a fan of their Magic line, you DO NOT want a retcon. In spite of how the Spellplague shook up the Realms, I felt RLB integrated it into Realms novel canon quite nicely in The Haunted Lands. I'd suggest a more natural return of the gods that adds to the lore of the world.
I would like to see some of the other continents aside from Faerun developed to give Toril a more "worldly feel." |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As an addition to this, they should publish novels and suppliments that cover other parts of the timeline and not just the present. This way people who only like the 1300s era, for instance, have something to buy and aren't being forced to buy into the 1400s timeline if they don't want to. And, the hope is, current fans will also buy the book set in the "past". This is an approach that won't further split the fanbase by forcing yet another major change.
Fantastic idea! I miss the feel of the older novels |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I would like to see some of the other continents aside from Faerun developed to give Toril a more "worldly feel."
Agreed, they really need to write some novels for Zakhara and Shou'lung |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:40:08
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Not to dissuade anyone from voting in my own poll, but it seems they already have another RSE already planned and in the works for the Realms, which we'll see in about three months with this upcoming novel:
Spinner of Lies by Bruce Cordell (Apr 2012).
The release notes read: "Spinner of Lies is a sequel to Sword of the Gods, and is also tied to the Rise of the Underdark, an event that will have bold, sweeping ramifications across (and under) the Forgotten Realms." (emphasis mine)
Thoughts? Opinions?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Jan 2012 19:48:31 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:40:51
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| No need to retcon anything. Just stop supporting the 4th timeline and get back to publishing all the 2nd edition era info lurking in Ed's hallowed halls. That way we don't have to worry about timelines, but can insert all the other background information that most true realms fans clamor for. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As an addition to this, they should publish novels and suppliments that cover other parts of the timeline and not just the present. This way people who only like the 1300s era, for instance, have something to buy and aren't being forced to buy into the 1400s timeline if they don't want to. And, the hope is, current fans will also buy the book set in the "past". This is an approach that won't further split the fanbase by forcing yet another major change.
Not a bad idea, but that could prove troublesome as the authors would be force to do juggling games to try not to change things that have already been written, that or use charcaters completely unknown to the great public.... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Coming from a fan of their Magic line, you DO NOT want a retcon. In spite of how the Spellplague shook up the Realms, I felt RLB integrated it into Realms novel canon quite nicely in The Haunted Lands. I'd suggest a more natural return of the gods that adds to the lore of the world.
I would like to see some of the other continents aside from Faerun developed to give Toril a more "worldly feel."
*Blink who or what is RLB?
IAE novels never fit well with source book canon. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:42:53
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| I chose option 3, but with the caveat that they need to smooth out the edges of the transition to 4e. IMHO, many things still need better explanations than what we were given (i.e. Why would Tymora (CG) marry Tyr (LG)? Amongst many other things that I and others have railed over for the past 4.5 years). Some of the things that I believe need to be better explained we were promised better explanations of in the "Countdown to the Realms" articles, which were discontinued before we got our answers. I would also like to see some of the "culling of the pantheons" reversed, but only if they did it in a well explained and thought out process. "XXXX is just no longer dead (because you demanded it and now we say so)," does not cut it for me. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:43:57
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| Richard Lee Byers |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:44:07
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There should be more novels like Ed's Knight trilogy, good stories set in the past. I've read 2 novels post Spellplague so far, Steven's Blackstaff Tower and Erik's Downshadow, and I really enjoyed both. Good stories can be told in the Realm's current state, but there are way too much stuff yet untold.
I want my multi-author Manshoon Clone Wars serie (and more Danilo and Blackstaff...)! |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:44:29
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Ed wrote the Swords of series about the Knights of Myth Drannor in the later 2000s and it was set far before the current timeline (at the time). Would LOVE more novels written pre-spell plague era. Love love love.
I'd also love an alternate timeline where Shar was thwarted and the SP never happened. *sigh* |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Richard Lee Byers
Thank you for the answer. *Looks to Code and decides to post no more.* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:53:30
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I will of course support WotC in what they do, because I like working in the Realms, regardless of edition. But I will be honest in my opinions about the direction we should take, based on my experience playing, writing, designing, and navigating these discussions online.
Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
What would be BEST is if we could get to a place where we all agree on the setting, and just go with it there. But since that isn't going to happen, what *I* would do is release stuff that supports all eras of the Realms, so that people playing 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, or 5e can still use anything that comes out. I'm completely fine with seeing the mechanical stuff that comes out support whatever edition is *current*, but story material should support any edition. I'd like to return to the days of 75% flavor, 25% crunch. (Which is where I think WotC design is headed, actually.)
Better explanations of the 4e transitions are also important. There's a lot of story there, and I think we can get to a narrative point where some of the big shenanigans are resolved. And I think that a lot of them are being dealt with as we speak, er, type. Let Ed deal with the Mystra situation, for instance (which he's currently doing). Give us another piece about the drow and their pantheon (hint hint, Menzo sourcebook). Let me deal with Helm (which I'm currently doing). Give Paul time to work the Shar/Mask/Erevis Cale thing (again).
Also, let us fill in some of that gap. I know it's nice for DMs to have an open area they can "fill in" with their own stuff, but it's far better for them to have the information to use if they want, and ignore it if they don't, rather than be FORCED to make it all up.
My two coppers.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As an addition to this, they should publish novels and suppliments that cover other parts of the timeline and not just the present. This way people who only like the 1300s era, for instance, have something to buy and aren't being forced to buy into the 1400s timeline if they don't want to. And, the hope is, current fans will also buy the book set in the "past". This is an approach that won't further split the fanbase by forcing yet another major change.
Fantastic idea! I miss the feel of the older novels
I think it's a better idea than the time jump and it gives more people what they want. I personally want to see novels set in the "past" and not just the 1300s. I want to see novels set in Ancient Netheril, or about the Imaskari, or novels that feature Khelben as a main character down through the years in Waterdeep and elsewhere, or novels about the Manshoon Clone Wars, and on and on. I like the current time period, but there is a lot in the past that can be covered. I know the Star Wars fanbase is several times larger so it isn't the best comparison, but they manage to have novels set 5000 years apart coming out within a month of each other. They divided their timeline up into major eras and went from there. With Realms novels releasing 9-11 a year (just a guesstimate) I don't think it would hurt if say 2 or 3 were set in the past. I think going forward the plans should be inclusive rather than exclusive and WotC has hopefully finally learned that lesson. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Better explanations of the 4e transitions are also important. There's a lot of story there, and I think we can get to a narrative point where some of the big shenanigans are resolved. And I think that a lot of them are being dealt with as we speak, er, type. Let Ed deal with the Mystra situation, for instance (which he's currently doing). Give us another piece about the drow and their pantheon (hint hint, Menzo sourcebook). Let me deal with Helm (which I'm currently doing). Give Paul time to work the Shar/Mask/Erevis Cale thing (again).
I'm looking forward to everything you mentionned Erik, very much.
I'll give WotC that; Things are looking much better now than they were 2 years ago. I almost feel like I could trust them again someday!  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:05:02
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The Star Wars Expanded Universe is a great analogy. I think WotC could stand to ape that construction, and set things radically far apart but still relevant. The Realms is panoramic and history-sweeping with so much vast possibility for story--quite enough to pull that off.
I'd like to see Realms novels releasing 15-20 a year myself, but maybe that's just me. Some of those should be "present/advance the timeline" novels, while a few should be "wherever you want to set it" novels. Open the Grand History, select a random page, and put your finger down on an era. That sort of story. Like Rosemary's Crypt of the Moaning Diamond, for instance.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
I really doubt that the Realms would "go down in flames" with a massive retcon to get rid of the 4E Era. I actually think it would be better for everyone if they did retcon it all away.
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
A time travel / erasure of 4E would be my best scenario. I could also live happily with 4E being turned into an alternate timeline where it did (and didn't) happen, then follow the timeline where it didn't happen. I'm sick to death of apocalyptic and post-cataclysm scenarios.
Let the 4E enthusiasts be happy with what they have. It's what they told us to do, after all. Take the Realms back to its original roots and give creative direction and control back to Ed Greenwood.
Whatever WotC decides to do, this crazy RSE escalation has to stop or we will end up with something no one will be happy with.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Jan 2012 20:07:45 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As an addition to this, they should publish novels and suppliments that cover other parts of the timeline and not just the present. This way people who only like the 1300s era, for instance, have something to buy and aren't being forced to buy into the 1400s timeline if they don't want to. And, the hope is, current fans will also buy the book set in the "past". This is an approach that won't further split the fanbase by forcing yet another major change.
Not a bad idea, but that could prove troublesome as the authors would be force to do juggling games to try not to change things that have already been written, that or use charcaters completely unknown to the great public....
I think they can use existing characters and plots. They need to nail down when the various events in the 100 year gap took place to make sure the "new" old stories don't conflict with them. Then just go to town. Take the Knights of Myth Drannor for example. As far as I know, we don't know how they each met their fate. So, as long as a story about them doesn't conflict with something else there won't be a problem. It will take coordination to make sure a "current" novel doesn't say someplace was destroyed before a "past" book takes place there. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I'd also love an alternate timeline where Shar was thwarted and the SP never happened. *sigh*
My main concern here is that you're setting yourself up for one of those unwinnable canon debates, and it's more divisive than progressive.
I would much rather see the Realms rise back up against Shar, having taken its beating with the Spellplague but come out the stronger for it.
Because that's what I think and sincerely hope will happen: that as dark as things get, the Realms will rise into a new age, stronger, more vibrant, and better than ever before.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:10:31
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| Thanks a lot for you intervention Erik, really lighted things up and gave me some tranquility, also is good to see Helm's story is being worked in, since it was one of the facets of the new 4E that left me most face-slapped. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 09 Jan 2012 20:11:22 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
I really doubt that the Realms would "go down in flames" with a massive retcon to get rid of the 4E Era. I actually think it would be better for everyone if they did retcon it all away.
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
A time travel / erasure of 4E would be my best scenario. I could also live happily with 4E being turned into an alternate timeline where it did (and didn't) happen, then follow the timeline where it didn't happen. I'm sick to death of apocalyptic and post-cataclysm scenarios.
Let the 4E enthusiasts be happy with what they have. It's what they told us to do, after all. Take the Realms back to its original roots and give creative direction and control back to Ed Greenwood.
But then you've burned pretty well everybody at some point or another and are now asking them all to trust you again. The transition to 4th burned a lot of people. Transitioning back will potentially burn everyone who stuck around and any new people you picked up. At that point you have no customer base because no one trusts you. If they reset, fans will not come flocking back. Fool me once, and all that. Some would come back, sure. But, will they exceed the number of current customers (again, the people actually buying products right now and filling their coffers) who are upset and leave. I doubt it. Chasing hypothetical customers at the cost of most of your current customers is a suicidal business move. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
I really doubt that the Realms would "go down in flames" with a massive retcon to get rid of the 4E Era. I actually think it would be better for everyone if they did retcon it all away.
I'm speaking from experience, seeing this happen to numerous fantasy settings, comic book cosmologies, etc. I stand by my belief that a cosmic reboot is almost never a good idea--far better to roll with it and just "make it better," not "remake it again."
Also, IMO, the suggestion of a massive retcon to get rid of 4e sounds eerily like the suggestion of a massive retcon to CREATE 4e.
quote:
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
I'm sorry, this argument doesn't hold much weight with me. We know next to nothing about Bruce's novel, and we all know that RSEs are (by and large) more about hype than actual crushing impact. All it's saying is that something is going to change. Not that scary.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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edappel
Learned Scribe
Brazil
211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:19:26
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Looks like they are trying to make a "definitive" module with many different-rules for different players.. Maybe they are aiming all players from 1st to 4 edition, and as FR will be the basic campaign setting, we can hope that they will do as Erik said.
But we should take care... Hasbroo "old-schooling" is a signal of the end of the world... |
--- Ed Appel
*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
I really doubt that the Realms would "go down in flames" with a massive retcon to get rid of the 4E Era. I actually think it would be better for everyone if they did retcon it all away.
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
A time travel / erasure of 4E would be my best scenario. I could also live happily with 4E being turned into an alternate timeline where it did (and didn't) happen, then follow the timeline where it didn't happen. I'm sick to death of apocalyptic and post-cataclysm scenarios.
Let the 4E enthusiasts be happy with what they have. It's what they told us to do, after all. Take the Realms back to its original roots and give creative direction and control back to Ed Greenwood.
But then you've burned pretty well everybody at some point or another and are now asking them all to trust you again. The transition to 4th burned a lot of people. Transitioning back will potentially burn everyone who stuck around and any new people you picked up. At that point you have no customer base because no one trusts you. If they reset, fans will not come flocking back. Fool me once, and all that. Some would come back, sure. But, will they exceed the number of current customers (again, the people actually buying products right now and filling their coffers) who are upset and leave. I doubt it. Chasing hypothetical customers at the cost of most of your current customers is a suicidal business move.
Of course if they had enough customers to support the current timeline, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
But then you've burned pretty well everybody at some point or another and are now asking them all to trust you again. The transition to 4th burned a lot of people. Transitioning back will potentially burn everyone who stuck around and any new people you picked up. At that point you have no customer base because no one trusts you. If they reset, fans will not come flocking back. Fool me once, and all that. Some would come back, sure. But, will they exceed the number of current customers (again, the people actually buying products right now and filling their coffers) who are upset and leave. I doubt it. Chasing hypothetical customers at the cost of most of your current customers is a suicidal business move.
I wouldn't underestimate the love that people had for the 1E/2E period. Even now, that poll here suggests it's the most preferred (granted, there are sampling issues). But I would see "the big retcon" as an admission that 4E Realms failed, and even as something of an apology. To regain the trust of the old fanbase, I think WotC definitely needs to craft an apology. With only a few exceptions, the staff that was responsible for 4E is largely gone.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:30:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. This would be the death knell of the Realms, I think. I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?
I really doubt that the Realms would "go down in flames" with a massive retcon to get rid of the 4E Era. I actually think it would be better for everyone if they did retcon it all away.
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
A time travel / erasure of 4E would be my best scenario. I could also live happily with 4E being turned into an alternate timeline where it did (and didn't) happen, then follow the timeline where it didn't happen. I'm sick to death of apocalyptic and post-cataclysm scenarios.
Let the 4E enthusiasts be happy with what they have. It's what they told us to do, after all. Take the Realms back to its original roots and give creative direction and control back to Ed Greenwood.
But then you've burned pretty well everybody at some point or another and are now asking them all to trust you again. The transition to 4th burned a lot of people. Transitioning back will potentially burn everyone who stuck around and any new people you picked up. At that point you have no customer base because no one trusts you. If they reset, fans will not come flocking back. Fool me once, and all that. Some would come back, sure. But, will they exceed the number of current customers (again, the people actually buying products right now and filling their coffers) who are upset and leave. I doubt it. Chasing hypothetical customers at the cost of most of your current customers is a suicidal business move.
Of course if they had enough customers to support the current timeline, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
You're confusing the current FR timeline with the 4E game system. Seeing as how just about every novel that we know of for this year is a FR novel, and we know that FR is getting another major RPG book this year making 4 to Dark Sun's 2 (with no signs of anything else for Dark Sun), and we know FR has a board game coming giving them 2, and we know there is a FR specific adventure coming this year, and we know FR will be supported right from the start of 5E with no mention of any other settings, I believe you are very much mistaken in your appraisal of the situation and that you have nothing to back up your claim. WotC is obviously putting a lot of their chips on FR and you don't back a losing bet if you have any intelligence. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
Topic Locked
