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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 22:32:05
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| How the hell do you guys follow this conversation? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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raist
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 01:07:54
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| I follow solely due to the fact that any conversation about the drow intrigues me and has my interest lol. |
Moderator @ http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 01:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How the hell do you guys follow this conversation?
I'm inclined to agree.
And, folks, for those involved in the current bout of side-topicness, can I ask that you all take it to PMs or emails, instead of cluttering this otherwise productive discussion?
Thank you.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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raist
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 17:14:18
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| I found out some good news yesterday. I was talking to the man, R.A. Salvatore himself and he said that he has got to read the book and that he gave the writers advice on it and also gave them the info on future drow stuff he is writing. So, I see this as an extreme positive. I hate when core books come out and then a novel that releases later changes the entirety of the core book, but at least we know that won't happen with this one. |
Moderator @ http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 17:56:18
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| -As long as his influence isn't too great. No offense against the man, but I don't think his depictions of Drow society are very 'accurate', if you will. That's probably a bi-product of the fact that he's only a writer, and 99.9% of the Forgotten Realms Drow stuff that he writes about is centered upon conflict of some sort. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 18:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by raist
I found out some good news yesterday. I was talking to the man, R.A. Salvatore himself and he said that he has got to read the book and that he gave the writers advice on it and also gave them the info on future drow stuff he is writing. So, I see this as an extreme positive.
Me too.
I like it when game designers are able to interface with people whove had a big influence on what the designers are working on.
Were you able to chat with him in person on his message boards?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 20:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by raist
I found out some good news yesterday. I was talking to the man, R.A. Salvatore himself and he said that he has got to read the book and that he gave the writers advice on it and also gave them the info on future drow stuff he is writing. So, I see this as an extreme positive. I hate when core books come out and then a novel that releases later changes the entirety of the core book, but at least we know that won't happen with this one.
That's cool. I imagine he had to let them know what's happening in Menzo in his novels so it lines up with what will come out in the sourcebooks or vice versa. Wonder if we're finally going to see the Baenre family topple from power. I somehow doubt it, but I guess you never know. ;) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 22:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-As long as his influence isn't too great. No offense against the man, but I don't think his depictions of Drow society are very 'accurate', if you will. That's probably a bi-product of the fact that he's only a writer[...].
I'm inclined to disagree with your characterization of him being "only a writer". He is THE writer who first incorporated the drow into the Realms. AFAIK, Ed had no intentions of doing so, himself.
The game sourcebooks are supposed to be mechanical interpretations of his (and other drow-related authors') stories.
It would seem to me that it is the sourcebooks (ironically labeled, since the novel Homeland would seem to be the true source of the idea of drow in the Realms) whose accuracy should be drawn into question.
But if you want to talk about the idea of some of his stories possibly contradicting one of the sourcebooks that he has had a hand in, such as the original Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], then yeah, I could concede that his novels might not be the most accurate in such an instance. Heck, sometimes his newer works even diverge from his own older novels!) 
With all that being said, I don't think it's even possible for RAS to have "too great" an influence on anything drow or Menzoberranyr. Any influence he might have would have to be described as being just about right.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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raist
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 10:13:47
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Nah, I chatted with him on facebook and he more or less made it sound like his input was merely input. Sounds like it was for the most part complete and he might have just said hey this is gonna happen in my book such and such.
On a side note, I agree that Homeland is pretty much a core book for drow information though. I also think that the WOTSQ novels are really good cases for how drow lives are played out in a lot of ways as well. They did a really good job detailing a the interactions between the various social classes of Menzoberranzan drow IMO. |
Moderator @ http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 17:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I'm inclined to disagree with your characterization of him being "only a writer". He is THE writer who first incorporated the drow into the Realms. AFAIK, Ed had no intentions of doing so, himself.
-Doesn't change the fact that his primary contributions to the setting are in the forms of his novels (and short stories), while his involvement in sourcebooks (especially in the present and in the past) are minimal.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It would seem to me that it is the sourcebooks (ironically labeled, since the novel Homeland would seem to be the true source of the idea of drow in the Realms) whose accuracy should be drawn into question.
-As compared to sourcebooks, which detail complete Drow society, in both Menzoberranzan (and especially Menzoberranzan), the depictions that he has in his novels of Drow are fairly limited and incomplete- primarily because he is an author first and foremost, and he is generally keeping to his own conceptual ideas of the stories he is writing. Compare to Elaine Cunningham who, in Daughter of the Drow, presents a much more complete picture of Drow society in Menzoberranzan (and then, of course, of other Drow in other settlements as Liriel Baenre travels and encounters them). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 22:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Doesn't change the fact that his primary contributions to the setting are in the forms of his novels (and short stories), while his involvement in sourcebooks (especially in the present and in the past) are minimal.
No, it doesn't change the fact.
But it does counter your notion that his being a novelist somehow leads his writings to be inaccurate. His contributions by novel (especially the biggie, Homeland) are what got this ball rolling.
And they're also what set the stage for sourcebooks about drow in the Realms.
So that completely undermines your theory that his being a novelist somehow makes his novels inaccurate. HIS NOVELS are what set the stage for drow in the Realms. He set the standard. The sourcebook designers (in concert with him during the writing of the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set]) went on to make that standard more precise over time, but he set it in the first place. So their results should be tested against his, and not the other way around.
quote:
-As compared to sourcebooks, which detail complete Drow society, in both Menzoberranzan (and especially Menzoberranzan), the depictions that he has in his novels of Drow are fairly limited and incomplete- primarily because he is an author first and foremost, and he is generally keeping to his own conceptual ideas of the stories he is writing.
That his novels focus on selected characters, Houses, or aspects of House rivalry does not in any way make them less accurate.
It makes them less comprehensive.
Few novels are ever as comprehensive as reference works, though.
quote:
Compare to Elaine Cunningham who, in Daughter of the Drow, presents a much more complete picture of Drow society in Menzoberranzan (and then, of course, of other Drow in other settlements as Liriel Baenre travels and encounters them).
Compare the publication dates:
- The Dark Elf Trilogy, Book I: Homeland, AUG-1990
- Menzo [Boxed Set], DEC-1992
- Starlight & Shadows, Book I: Daughter of the Drow, AUG-1995
Just from looking at that list, one should be able to see very easily that Elaine had tremendous resources to draw from when telling her first drow tales, which Bob did not have when he began. Of course she might be able to present a more complete picture of Menzo than Bob was able to, years before. (I wouldn't know, because I still haven't read her books, yet.)
But a greater degree of completion does not equate to greater accuracy. It equates to greater precision. And those are not the same thing at all.
I know that Bob explored inter-House rivalries and matronly intrigue on a far wider scale in his "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series, in which he drew extensively from details that had just been hammered out in the M[BS]. He had only scratched the surface in Homeland.
And the "WOTSQ" books, especially Byers's Dissolution (JUL-2002), described life in the city with much more visceral detail than I had ever read before. I really enjoyed being able to read about the sights and sounds of Menzo that an average citizen might experience, as opposed to just the perspective of a privileged noble son.
But at no point did I think to myself, "Whoah, that's so cool, and it goes further into detail about 'X' than I ever thought possible before, but it sure means that Bob is wrong, though."
So I don't get where you're coming from, LK. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 02:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But it does counter your notion that his being a novelist somehow leads his writings to be inaccurate. His contributions by novel (especially the biggie, Homeland) are what got this ball rolling.
So that completely undermines your theory that his being a novelist somehow makes his novels inaccurate. HIS NOVELS are what set the stage for drow in the Realms. He set the standard. The sourcebook designers (in concert with him during the writing of the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set]) went on to make that standard more precise over time, but he set it in the first place. So their results should be tested against his, and not the other way around.
-His novels simply focus on his stories (as novelists do). Various aspects of Menzoberranzan's culture that are not relevant to the main characters or events in the books that take place in or are otherwise related to the city don't particularly get featured, and as a result, Drow society in books that he has penned only show an incomplete picture of what Menzoberranzan's society is like. Reading only the Dark Elf trilogy, and the snippets of novels and short stories that take place in Menzoberranzan, the Drow and the city seems overtly 'militaristic' and centered/dedicated wholly around the worship of Lolth- at times, seemingly to the point of dourness, in some characters/ This is in some contrast as compared to to other Forgotten Realms authors who have written about happenings in the city or characters from it and have painted a more complete depiction of Menzoberranzan's culture. We know, given all of the sourcebooks and novels and everything else detailing Menzoberranzan that residents, and Lolthite culture in general is not as 'militaristic' as R.A. Salvatore novels present it to be (because they primarily involve nobles and other establishment figures engaging in political machinations).
-Chronologically, more data is available to later authors, as more about Drow in general is written in both D&D and in the setting, sure. Does that change the main complaint, that depictions of society aren't wholly accurate? It adds an asterisk and an explanation, but doesn't change that they aren't, in light of the information we have. Various Greek scientific manuscripts contain all kinds of enlightening information, but contain premises that we know are inaccurate- the geocentric cosmological model, for example. Their descriptions of stars and planets aren't wrong, but they are inaccurate, as we know the heliocentric cosmological model is correct.
-Less comprehensive, if you will. I define that as less accurate, however. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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raist
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 09:04:19
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quote:
HIS NOVELS are what set the stage for drow in the Realms. He set the standard. The sourcebook designers (in concert with him during the writing of the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set]) went on to make that standard more precise over time, but he set it in the first place. So their results should be tested against his, and not the other way around.
That was basically my point, IMO he should always at least be consulted considering he created the ways that they live and the environment in which they live within.
But all this ultimately boils down to me, that, there is a new sourcebook coming out and I'll take it lol. Any further detail on ANY part of the drow is good for me and worthy enough for me to purchase it. And it will have new pics, which is ALWAYS a good thing. :) |
Moderator @ http://www.menzoberranzan2.net/info |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 17:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by raist
But all this ultimately boils down to me, that, there is a new sourcebook coming out and I'll take it lol. Any further detail on ANY part of the drow is good for me and worthy enough for me to purchase it. And it will have new pics, which is ALWAYS a good thing. :)
If you've seen the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, then you'll probably agree that WOTC definitely knows how to deliver a great lore-filled product these days. It's exciting to see what they'll make of Menzo, now! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 22:45:42
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| The upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook will be a pleasant surprise to many of you. Meaning, I expect many to have preconceived notions of what it might be. Fans of Realmslore should very much enjoy it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 23:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
The upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook will be a pleasant surprise to many of you. Meaning, I expect many to have preconceived notions of what it might be. Fans of Realmslore should very much enjoy it.
It clearly is something I am hoping for, something welcomed.
I trust you are doing well these days? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 00:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
The upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook will be a pleasant surprise to many of you. Meaning, I expect many to have preconceived notions of what it might be. Fans of Realmslore should very much enjoy it.
It clearly is something I am hoping for, something welcomed.
I trust you are doing well these days?
Hey Kentinel, good to hear from you. All is well, and I have no complaints. Life is peachy :)
I think you'll enjoy this book, as will many others. |
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New Menzoberranzan Sourcebook in the works!
