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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 18:52:01
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I'm a little behind the times, but I guess a few weeks ago a new sourcebook was announced for next summer: Menzoberranzan. It's listed under a cities of intrigue line. Makes me wonder if we will be getting entire books on cities in the future.
If we're going to be rocking out and dusting off some of those old school 2nd edition sourcebooks, we need another dwarves deep supplement!
While I'm not a fan of 4E, I certainly hope the book is the size of the Neverwinter guide and crammed full of uber yummy updated lore! I hope ED is working on this again.
I don't know if these are already finished, but I'm hoping we get more than a rehash of the old information. There has to be someone in R&D who is completely neurotic and has named and listed a good 30 or 40 of the drow houses! I hope they do a good section dedicated to the houses where it lists troop formations or the very least nobles, soldiers, and slaves with important NPCs listed. Stats don't matter much to me, but lore does!
Please give us updated maps! I'm guessing we'll get city maps, but it would be totally sweet to have a few noble compound maps to insert our own creations into. I'll settle for detailed maps of House Baenre though. :) I'd also love for it to give tons of info for the bazaar. Heck, even a name of the vendor and what they sell in a word or three after the name would work.
Please remove House Melarn from the city hierarchy. I'd imagine First Matron Quenthel Baenre would have destroyed them by now as their existence would continuously remind her of her failure to become Lolth's chosen. I guess it may be kind of interesting, but I never understood why the House was placed there. I would think they would rather be in Ched Nasad working to rebuild.
I hope it explains house station a bit. Some sources(4e campaign guide) indicate that a house can move up and down in rank without being destroyed. Until this point I had been under the assumption, from novels and such, that a house only moves up when a family in front of them is destroyed. Rules or a general idea of how to run a noble family in the political climate of the city and how to advance would be kind of fun. Mongoose publishing touched on it with their Game of Bones version, but I never much cared for it. Was an interesting idea however.
Hoping we also have tons of information on merchant and mercenary organizations of the city. Some maps of a few special shops wouldn't hurt. One of the biggest things I see lacking in today's products are good maps. I see tactical grids and battlemaps as wastes of product space. Need lots of good maps to work with. :)
I'd be curious to know what's up in some of the various ruined noble compounds. I always pictured Briza Do'Urden still sitting on her stone throne of rotted velvet as a banshee with the bones of her dead mother in front of her, confined to the ruins of the house by Lolth's magic.
I so wish I could see a sneakpeak of this stuff. Summer of 2012 is forever away! I'm seriously hoping this product does a bang-up job and is just as good if not better than Neverwinter.
So what does everyone else want in the Menzoberranzan product? I'm pretty stoked, but what about YOU?
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 11:30:36
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I haven’t purchased much of the 4th edition, so I have little justification for moaning, but I can’t help but feel ambivalent about this news. I’ve heard a lot of praise for the Neverwinter sourcebook, and in these days of want we’ve got to welcome whatever Realms products we get, but . . . it’s a shame we have to go back to Menzoberranzan.
There are so many places in the Realms still to explore – I wish we could go somewhere new. Menzoberranzan was covered so well 100 years ago in 2nd edition, I whilst I’m curious what changes the Spellplague has brought about, I’d rather hear about somewhere else ... even Returned Abeir!
Presumably, Salvatore’s new novel series will be heading Menzoberranzan way!
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 14:56:55
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| Ugh...another overdone area in the Realms. They're never going to cover the areas that need covering, are they? |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 23:25:47
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I've always been a fan of drow and love seeing any new information on them. But I totally understand what you both mean. I love me some dwarves as much as my dark elves and seeing something done with Tethyamar or a reboot of Dwarves Deep would be nice.
I am hoping designers someday elaborate on what this Tyr worshipping area in the Heartlands is all about. Reminds me of the Kingpriest era from Dragonlance where good goes so far as to almost be "evil". Some new Volo's guides would nice, I always loved those books. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 15:50:46
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I hope the info won't be the recycled info from DDGtU or Menzo boxed set or the 4e FRCG...
And I agree with Eilserus... completely. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 16:56:39
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I'll never turn away good Realmslore and books such as this can prove to be a great campaign arch. I think they go this route because it can be easily adapted to pretty much any genre/setting with Drow in it. Take it as is, names and all, and place it in Greyhawk or your own homebrew setting and it works pretty good. The fact that it's also FR is icing on the cake.
That being said, I too really wish we'd get more info and possibly a hard-bound book about another part of the Realms. I wish they'd do the Demonlands (Vaasa, Damara, Impiltur, etc). For one, this could make a really awesome PC vs. Devil/Demon incursion campaign. Secondly, this is one of those regions that received little love overall.
Or, if your more about fighting the growing Undead army....a Sourcebook about Thay, Aglarond, and Rasheman. THAT would be a lot of fun too, I think.
Also, If people want more Realmslore or if people want to flesh things out themselves, I really really really urge you to write up your stuff and submit it to Dragon/Dungeon. FR is one of the most popular (if not THE most popular) setting of 4E still, and it needs more infomation. SO, if your ALL about creating great Realmslore and want to do just that, ask any one of the scribes here about rules/mechanics and I'm sure something can be done to submit a great article. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 17:01:33
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I just hope if they do use 90% recycled material, they at least give the original author credit in the book. I hate it when they don't (something that became common place toward the end of 3e).
Can't say I am interested in yet another source about a region that has been beaten to death. To me, this just indicates they continue to do whatever they want, and aren't listening to the fans (that want something NEW).
Then again... they tried that... it wasn't pretty. 
Maybe they should just recycle the old stuff... at least that was good. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 17:24:10
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I'll tell you exactly what will happen. They'll put the project on some new editor's desk, then pair him with a freelancer. They'll pull together all the old supplements and prune off all of the 2E / 3E edition-specific material. Then, they'll write 5-6 paragraphs of new material, updating the region for 4E: there's spellplague here, there are floaty earthmotes there, such-and-such is now a primordial, etc. But the core will mostly be 2E, with a splash of current history.
Then they'll design some 4E-specific crunch, like a few plaguechanged underdark monsters (which will be derived from other plaguechanged monsters already seen in DDI or other 4E sourcebooks). You'll get a couple spellscar-type things to slap onto your drow PCs, and you'll get a couple epic pathways (the epic 4E spider-kisser, or the epic 4E drider exile), and a couple themes/paths for good measure (drow priestess or Bregan D'aerthe officer, etc). Then a re-hash of the various enemies in the area that threaten Menzo, but with a 4E bent: abolethic soverignty, illithids with spellscars, and perhaps a Netherese outpost that's interested in a nearby broken mythallar.
Oh wait, forgot to tie in Shadowfel and Far Realms. There will be a paragraph or two about the shadowfel leaking into one or two deep underdark areas, and perhaps a broken portal to the Far Realms with a couple nasty monsters setting up shop. There's probably a 10-15% chance that they'll tell us what happened to Eilistraee, and if they do she'll end up having turned into an elite Fey or Exarch of Corellon (best case)... or she might have been absorbed into another deity, or might have "actually been" an aspect of another deity (e.g. she was really Selune, because of the moon affiliation) "all along". If they do have Eilistraee show up, instead of just being a blip in past history, she will be gimped, damaged, twisted, or turned gray-morality such that she won't be a nice, sweet ally but rather dangerous.
Finally, they'll tell Salvatore to make sure that his next Drizzt novel has the ranger going back into the Underdark and visiting Menzo for some contrived reason. That novel will be released around the same time that the supplement is released. Around the same time, they'll stat up Drizzt for 4E in DDI, where he will be an epic encounter "just for fun not for reals" just like they did an insane Elminster encounter awhile back.
They might even find some doofy reason to plop a Dread Ring in some underdark area close to Menzo, and throw in some Ashmadai and / or Thayans doing some naughty things with undead.
The only thing that doesn't spring to mind immediately is how they'll insert something Dragonborn into the Underdark. Maybe a piece of Abeir's underdark somehow merged into a portion of the underdark, something like that.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 28 Dec 2011 18:00:51 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 18:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't say I am interested in yet another source about a region that has been beaten to death. To me, this just indicates they continue to do whatever they want, and aren't listening to the fans (that want something NEW).
And what, pray-tell, are the fans really saying? More importantly, where are they requesting or saying this at? It's not on the FR-specific WotC Boards. It's not on the General Discussion, Future Release, or DDi General boards. I'm a "friend" of D&D on Facebook and i just don't see the sorts of requests and the like on there as well. To be blunt, they're not mind-readers. They know what sells, they know the kind of characters you make (CB is online for a reason), and the influx of Dungeon/Dragon submissions probably give them a sort of undestanding on what kind of crunch/adventures people like to play.
IF you DON'T tell them what you want or do so in a place where they're likely not to hear you, well I can't really call that "Not Listening". Furthermore, there is really no direction, focus, nor desire from the genearl FR fan-base that really screams to them "HEY, WE WANT TO SEE THIS!" I see no petitions, no one talking about submissions, no one discussing way to IMPROVE the Realms besides what WotC is churning out.
But I guess to do this, one might have to actually delve into the rules and current lore of the setting to do that and I've seen too much "Edition Bashing" here to really feel the desire to rally any kind of support. Sure, things are generally smooth from two years ago and we've all enjoyed the wonderful novels that have come out of the Spellplague (and 4E Forgotten Realms) but aside from that, Na-da.
And this isn't a "your not a fan if you don't buy into the new edition" sort of rant. It's a "you haven't been invested, and so really can't complain what gets put out or claim they're not listening" sort of rant.
Also, I hope you don't take offense to this Markus as I generally agree that the Menzoberranzan book has been done to death and would like to have seen something far different. I just don't think they (WotC) can be cited for not listening when I feel no one is saying anything.
@Therise: Your scenario is probably pretty close, yet I think it'll probably delve more into the intrigues/plots/schemes of the various Drow houses and more campaign-story driven than just a general over view with a heavy mechanic tie in. Much like how the Neverwinter book has been, it's been very lore focued with a sprinkling of mechanics (Themese, maybe a class, some powers, a few monsters). But even if it was nearly what you describe, it is the style WotC has gone with for their setting-splat books for as far back as the beginning of 3E, so it's really nothing new. I figured that your description would be pretty much expected by this point.
EDIT: Addendum
Additionally, what you also described is someone doing a lot of research and making sure continunity remains a somewhat important factor in the supplement. So if the DO all of those things, well more power to them. You also described what a lot of the already published 4E supplement Underdark entails. I HOPE they see realize that re-doing or recreating that material isn't necessary and do something a bit more involved with the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
That novel will be released around the same time that the supplement is released. Around the same time, they'll stat up Drizzt for 4E in DDI, where he will be an epic encounter "just for fun not for reals" just like they did an insane Elminster encounter awhile back
They already did that, prior to the Elminster article, called Hero Battle: Drizzt. The PCs are in The North on some sort of mission for a person to recover this item. Drizzt believes you are possibly Netheril Spies working for said person (she is a Netheril spy, and has either obtained your aid without the PCs knowing her identity, or maybe you work for the Shades afterall). In either case, a quick skirmish ensues and with Drizzt and Guen which will likely reslut in a diplomatic stand-off (if the PCs are good). Drizzt is statted as a 21st level "Solo" with quite a repitoire of abilities at his disposal and, if I may add, is probably the best rendition of his stats/abilities to date.
Also, they did a writeup of all the Weapons/Items of the Companions of the Hall in another DDI article, which gives you an idea of what all their items would look like (4E style). |
Edited by - Diffan on 28 Dec 2011 18:44:11 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 18:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't say I am interested in yet another source about a region that has been beaten to death. To me, this just indicates they continue to do whatever they want, and aren't listening to the fans (that want something NEW).
And what, pray-tell, are the fans really saying? More importantly, where are they requesting or saying this at? It's not on the FR-specific WotC Boards. It's not on the General Discussion, Future Release, or DDi General boards. I'm a "friend" of D&D on Facebook and i just don't see the sorts of requests and the like on there as well. To be blunt, they're not mind-readers. They know what sells, they know the kind of characters you make (CB is online for a reason), and the influx of Dungeon/Dragon submissions probably give them a sort of undestanding on what kind of crunch/adventures people like to play.
IF you DON'T tell them what you want or do so in a place where they're likely not to hear you, well I can't really call that "Not Listening". Furthermore, there is really no direction, focus, nor desire from the genearl FR fan-base that really screams to them "HEY, WE WANT TO SEE THIS!" I see no petitions, no one talking about submissions, no one discussing way to IMPROVE the Realms besides what WotC is churning out.
But I guess to do this, one might have to actually delve into the rules and current lore of the setting to do that and I've seen too much "Edition Bashing" here to really feel the desire to rally any kind of support. Sure, things are generally smooth from two years ago and we've all enjoyed the wonderful novels that have come out of the Spellplague (and 4E Forgotten Realms) but aside from that, Na-da.
And this isn't a "your not a fan if you don't buy into the new edition" sort of rant. It's a "you haven't been invested, and so really can't complain what gets put out or claim they're not listening" sort of rant.
Well, to be fair, I recall a great deal of outcry and "we don't want THIS!" when 4E Realms was first released. People tried on the WotC boards and other boards to describe (often in some detail) what they didn't want, and what they did, but it all fell on deaf ears. Or we were accused loudly of promoting yet another edition war.
I even recall one known, admitted troll who tried to get WotC to either segregate or censor anyone with even a mildly negative opinion.
So... catch-22. When you're told to STFU because this is what you're getting, repeatedly, it tends to drive people away.
quote:
@Therise: Your scenario is probably pretty close, yet I think it'll probably delve more into the intrigues/plots/schemes of the various Drow houses and more campaign-story driven than just a general over view with a heavy mechanic tie in. Much like how the Neverwinter book has been, it's been very lore focued with a sprinkling of mechanics (Themese, maybe a class, some powers, a few monsters). But even if it was nearly what you describe, it is the style WotC has gone with for their setting-splat books for as far back as the beginning of 3E, so it's really nothing new. I figured that your description would be pretty much expected by this point.
That's probably true, there will be campaign themes I'm sure. I'm not sure they'll be really detailed or complex though, because 4E is meant to be rather "sandboxy" (even the 4E Neverwinter CG strikes me that way). And that, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing at all. I prefer sandbox play. But I think the days of getting really super-interesting, highly detailed and devious / compelling plot hooks in the 1E/2E Greenwood style are kinda gone. In fact, many of the really amazing old plot hooks were taken and used by novel authors which subsequently made them unavailable to gamers unless you had a radically modified homebrew Realms.
quote:
Additionally, what you also described is someone doing a lot of research and making sure continunity remains a somewhat important factor in the supplement. So if the DO all of those things, well more power to them. You also described what a lot of the already published 4E supplement Underdark entails. I HOPE they see realize that re-doing or recreating that material isn't necessary and do something a bit more involved with the setting.
As do I. But I'm not holding my breath. As you said, it's been a pretty standard model for WotC to re-hash older sourcebooks (speaking of 3E-3.5E in particular), and that behavior is unlikely to change. They might end up relying on deBie or Greenwood if they want to insert something totally new and creative, but I don't see any in-house designers really giving us something to WOW! about.
quote:
They already did that, prior to the Elminster article, called Hero Battle: Drizzt. The PCs are in The North on some sort of mission for a person to recover this item. Drizzt believes you are possibly Netheril Spies working for said person (she is a Netheril spy, and has either obtained your aid without the PCs knowing her identity, or maybe you work for the Shades afterall). In either case, a quick skirmish ensues and with Drizzt and Guen which will likely reslut in a diplomatic stand-off (if the PCs are good). Drizzt is statted as a 21st level "Solo" with quite a repitoire of abilities at his disposal and, if I may add, is probably the best rendition of his stats/abilities to date.
Didn't know that, as I haven't seen all the DDI.
Well, if they already did Drizzt, maybe they'll stat up Jarlaxle or Kimmuriel, or perhaps Drizzt's new squeeze in the novels (the one with Kozah's needle, something like Dahlia - sp?). It'll be something related to the most currently released novel, most likely.
As to things that I've personally seen people begging for (over decades), which haven't really been delivered in any deep detail: Aglarond, Rashemen, (old) Thay, (old and new) Sembia, Impiltur, the list goes on and on... and still waiting.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 28 Dec 2011 19:11:15 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 21:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Well, to be fair, I recall a great deal of outcry and "we don't want THIS!" when 4E Realms was first released. People tried on the WotC boards and other boards to describe (often in some detail) what they didn't want, and what they did, but it all fell on deaf ears. Or we were accused loudly of promoting yet another edition war.
I even recall one known, admitted troll who tried to get WotC to either segregate or censor anyone with even a mildly negative opinion.
So... catch-22. When you're told to STFU because this is what you're getting, repeatedly, it tends to drive people away.
We were pretty much kept in the dark about the various changes they were going to put out at the start of 4E. We knew from GHotR that the timeline would be jumped 10 years. We knew Mystra and Helm were murdered, Tyr went out in a blaze of glory, and Cyric had been imprisoned. Yes, we didn't want these things but by THAT time, it was far far too late. The inclusion of Eladrin/Dragonborn, Return Abier, the Spellplague are all things that were, for the most part non-negotionable.
So as the saying goes: "We work with the hand we were dealt". And it's from this point moving forward I've heard barely a peep from the fan-based community. By this time though, many were pretty much done with the setting. They didn't like the changes, blamed 4E, didn't like 4E OR the changes, or any reason you like so they had no motivation to voice an opinion on what they wanted to see (or not see) more of. If there were more voices, or more opinions, more attempts to contact WotC, more involvement with the direction the setting is taking then I think we would see more of the stuff we want.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As to things that I've personally seen people begging for (over decades), which haven't really been delivered in any deep detail: Aglarond, Rashemen, (old) Thay, (old and new) Sembia, Impiltur, the list goes on and on... and still waiting.
I'd suggest figuring out what guidelines there are for DDI submissions and make an attempt to thow out what you'd like to see in any one of those areas. The society of Rasheman, the nobility of Impiltur, how the Star Elves have fared in Aglarond....and I think it would be great for a community project (a condensed format would be needed for submission, however). Just saying, as fans we do have a say and from my own experience, WotC has been listening. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 23:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
...So as the saying goes: "We work with the hand we were dealt". And it's from this point moving forward I've heard barely a peep from the fan-based community. By this time though, many were pretty much done with the setting. They didn't like the changes, blamed 4E, didn't like 4E OR the changes, or any reason you like so they had no motivation to voice an opinion on what they wanted to see (or not see) more of. If there were more voices, or more opinions, more attempts to contact WotC, more involvement with the direction the setting is taking then I think we would see more of the stuff we want.
Again, we were strongly and repeatedly given the message, "STFU, and go away while you're at it, we don't need or want you as customers any more." So yeah, when you aren't listened to and they deal a hand you hate, the other option is simply to fold.
After having been treated that way, by WotC and online by Realms-detractors, I have zero interest in supporting them in any way whatsoever. Sorry, but there it is. Working with what's there, the hand they dealt, would mean accepting their vision despite the way we were treated.
And if the WotC Realms forums are almost totally dead now because this vision didn't actually appeal to the Realms-detractors (or not enough of them), and most of those who were so vociferously defending the new Realms are now also gone, that's too bad. It really is a shame, because WotC gambled and everyone lost. Except perhaps Paizo.
quote:
I'd suggest figuring out what guidelines there are for DDI submissions and make an attempt to thow out what you'd like to see in any one of those areas. The society of Rasheman, the nobility of Impiltur, how the Star Elves have fared in Aglarond....and I think it would be great for a community project (a condensed format would be needed for submission, however). Just saying, as fans we do have a say and from my own experience, WotC has been listening.
Let's see, they've driven me out of my lovely house, burned it down to the foundation, and then erected a gaudy multicolor tie-dyed pup tent surrounded by metallic balloon displays. You want me to tell them how to now build a house that's better than their tent?
Sure, I could do that. Or I could jump through a time gate and live happily in the past. I can build my own divergent timeline and world, based only on the things I loved most about 1E and 2E.
What choice do you really think I've made?
Now I'm just answering what you've asked... but I think we're going afield of what the OP and intent of the thread was about. I'm glad to talk further about this in a new thread or privately, but getting back on track with Menzoberranzan and future creativity, I'm just not sure what to expect. They may come up with some truly fantastic plot hooks and factions that could make it the best supplement we've seen regardless of edition.
But I kinda doubt it. From what I've heard, 4E is winding down in a lot of ways. This might be one of the last 4E supplements, I don't know. If it is, how much will the really put into it in terms of resources? If they're planning something new, that is.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 29 Dec 2011 00:23:51 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 00:32:00
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Therise, will you eat your words if you're wrong? ;) --I can't help but to think you'll hate anything that ever comes out again. Which is a shame because those looking to the Realms, those who have never visited it, will see what you've written over and over, and be turned off. They'll move on to things such as sparkling vampires and such :D
This book has already been written. I know the designers, I know the editors, and I think you're in for a bit treat. The *wink* *wink* kind of treat.
But who knows.  |
Edited by - Matt James on 29 Dec 2011 00:35:09 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 00:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Therise, will you eat your words if you're wrong? ;)
This book is already written and on to editing.
I don't know, Matt... will you or Brian answer Razz's question in the other thread? Or the PM that I sent you, which I know you read but haven't yet replied to?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 29 Dec 2011 00:34:26 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 00:35:44
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| Sorry, I edited my post since you replied. And no, I won't reply to your PM where you try to bait me into saying something. I didn't think it warranted a response. You're looking for an outlet to vent your personal frustrations with the Realms, and I refuse to be it. |
Edited by - Matt James on 29 Dec 2011 00:36:58 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 00:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Sorry, I edited my post since you replied. And no, I won't reply to your PM where you try to bait me into saying something. I didn't think it warranted a response. You're looking for an outlet to vent your personal frustrations with the Realms, and I refuse to be it.
I'm just answering Diffan, buddyboy.
And Diffan, this kind of treatment is exactly why I haven't been on the WotC boards in about 3 years.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:02:08
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That's quite enough, Therise. A number of scribes have expressed growing concern over your increasingly antagonistic commentary.
I can't expect your opinions to mirror those of others, and I accept that. However, I also can't allow your continued replies to make this an uncomfortable place for other scribes. We're a community of individuals who all share a passion for the Realms. Please try to remember that when you're replying to others in the future.
If you wish to maintain your commentary on certain issues and with particular scribes, I suggest you direct them either through PM or email. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's quite enough, Therise. A number of scribes have expressed growing concern over your increasingly antagonistic commentary.
I can't expect your opinions to mirror those of others, and I accept that. However, I also can't allow your continued replies to make this an uncomfortable place for other scribes. We're a community of individuals who all share a passion for the Realms. Please try to remember that when you're replying to others in the future.
If you wish to maintain your commentary on certain issues and with particular scribes, I suggest you direct them either through PM or email.
Any scribe that has a problem with anything I've said is more than welcome to PM me and I'll honestly try to figure out a way to work it out with them. If they think I might bite, or are worried that their issue with me will land on a deaf ear in a PM, they're more than welcome to Cc a moderator my responses.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:49:49
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I do agree with much of what Therise's first post said - although I strongly suspect it's not quite as trivialized as suggested, the 4E Realmslore I've read (and compared quite critically against earlier lore) clearly had much more to offer than just a few skimpy new paragraphs and monsters, it even contains a lot of new yet "inoffensive" lore which doesn't require any 4E-specific game rules or Spellplague destruction at all to become an interesting and useful part of any edition of the Realms.
Although I do think it's possible to disagree with more tact, belittling insults aren't necessary and do not underscore the validity of a statement. The focus of subsequent posts was simple confrontation, I would have automatically ignored them if I had the option. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 02:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm just answering Diffan, buddyboy.
And Diffan, this kind of treatment is exactly why I haven't been on the WotC boards in about 3 years.
You have answered my questions, and while I don't necessarily agree with your opinions completely, they're no less valid than my own. To comment upon what you wrote, I personally never felt they told me to STFU, to go away, or that they didn't want my buisness. The very fact that FR is the most heavily supported setting in 4th Edition currently is evidence of quite the contrary IMO. Again, this is just to put things in perspective and not to "one-up" you in any way or means. I completly understand the frustration, resentment, and anger of many of WotC decisions on how they handled the Realms. My main point is, being upset about what is/isn't published in the Forgotten Realms or saying that they're not listening to the fans about stuff being published "NOW" is disingenous due to the fact that no one seems to be offering details on what the fans DO want.
I did mention that the FR boards are quite slow as compared to how it was over 3 years ago but keep in mind that there really wasn't THAT many posters, probably about 30 or so "regulars" that really moved things along. Of those 30, a small fraction stayed and contribute but others have left. Now it's new people with lots of questions that are answered in 10-12 posts and the thread then sits there. There is a LOT of bare-bones parts of the Realms that I feel the community could help fill and that comes with Customer Feedback. If there is no Feedback, then there is no advancement or un-focused advancement.
As for how this ties into the new Menzoberranzan book, if it's already done (or mostly) then why wait for so long to put it out? I'd have liked to seen it mid 2nd Quarter, but it could be because they want to hold off on further saturating the market. I am excited to see what it entails and I'm pretty sure my wife is as well. For some reason she really enjoys throwing us into Drow encounters and plots....better go grap that poison resistance armor...
One thing I think they can skimp a bit on is Drizzt being mentioned in the tome. I love the character, think he's great, and find his adventures quite thrilling.....but he needs some "off-screen" time. He has his own game, own DDI article, his 2 new books, and so on. I hope they actually get ahold of Elaine and see if she'll write up something.....ANYTHING on Liriel. Even if it's just a small block write-up about what happened to her in 100 words. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 04:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
You have answered my questions, and while I don't necessarily agree with your opinions completely, they're no less valid than my own. To comment upon what you wrote, I personally never felt they told me to STFU, to go away, or that they didn't want my buisness...
Thanks, and I can more than agree with that. I only intended to explain my viewpoint (and that of many others) back at that time several years ago. I also agree that recently things have gotten better as far as publications. Not enough for me to get into 4E Realms (yet?) but who is to know what this new supplement might bring? And I think I've been fairly positive about at least a few of the new novels. I totally reject another poster's suggestion that I'm some kind of universal 4E-hater, as well as the silly suggestion that my commentary could even remotely make someone stop buying product.
quote:
...One thing I think they can skimp a bit on is Drizzt being mentioned in the tome. I love the character, think he's great, and find his adventures quite thrilling.....but he needs some "off-screen" time. He has his own game, own DDI article, his 2 new books, and so on. I hope they actually get ahold of Elaine and see if she'll write up something.....ANYTHING on Liriel. Even if it's just a small block write-up about what happened to her in 100 words.
Oddly enough, the new Drizzt novels have been "okay" in my book, and that's why I predicted above that somehow he will figure into this new future sourcebook. Anything from Cunningham would be more than welcome as well.
Finally, if anyone is hurt, harmed or offended by my comments here, or future comments, I invite you to PM me so we can hash it out. I don't bite. Unless you ask me to. 
Therise
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 06:22:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
This book has already been written. I know the designers, I know the editors, and I think you're in for a bit treat. The *wink* *wink* kind of treat.
But who knows.
I'm reading this as Ed worked on the project. Yes? Maybe? :)
@Diffan - I'd totally be down for submitting articles for DDI, I just don't have the mindset or want to learn 4E rules. I'm probably just getting old, but it seems so different from the simple 2nd edition days.
It took me a while to get used to the Spellplague idea, but I just looked at it as sort of a post apocalyptic scenario. Points of light amongst the darkness and all that. I just look at it as everywhere is practically the frontier and unknown lands now, and that is cool. I just wish they could keep the new dangerous lands feeling and crank out sourcebooks by the truckloads like back in the 2nd edition days.
Really if this Cities of Intrigue line is about detailing a major city and surrounding areas of Faerun it might work well. Many folks are dying for updated information in 4th edition since the campaign guide was pretty sparse on alot of things. If WotC is going to put out books like Neverwinter CG that includes updated lore and adventure hooks and information on various areas across the Realms, I'm going to buy them.
And someone please resurrect Laduguer. I just can't get my head around duergar worshiping Asmodeus and shooting beard quills and stuff. ;) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 14:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
@Diffan - I'd totally be down for submitting articles for DDI, I just don't have the mindset or want to learn 4E rules. I'm probably just getting old, but it seems so different from the simple 2nd edition days.
After reading Ed's articles on DDI, I have a very distinict feeling he handles all the fluff while someone else throws in some crunch. Same ideas are applied here. Come up with an awesome write-up, be somewhat focued, make sure that it's maleable enough for "Sand-Box" play, and apply it to the current setting. An example could be a write up of Hathran, their role in Rasheman society, and possibly tie in mechanics such as feats, a theme, or even a whole Paragon Path for them. The people here, me included, really enjoy doing the crunch part of the game, but......well I'm not a very good writer.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
It took me a while to get used to the Spellplague idea, but I just looked at it as sort of a post apocalyptic scenario. Points of light amongst the darkness and all that. I just look at it as everywhere is practically the frontier and unknown lands now, and that is cool. I just wish they could keep the new dangerous lands feeling and crank out sourcebooks by the truckloads like back in the 2nd edition days.
You've described how I also feel about the Spellplague, but I don't think it's as bad as post-apocalyptic (like The Book of Eli, The Road, Land of the Dead. I think it's revereted to a place with more danger, which requires guards for caravans to deter Monsters, not just common human briggands. As for the amount of immersion and depth of setting like 2E days, those days are probably long gone honestly. WotC has been more focused on putting emphasis on "Making it your Own" type of game and it's hard to do that with loads of Canon-Lore for players to sift through. Many people like that but I can see merits of it being a little more loose for PC incursion/motives/plots that canon might discourage.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Really if this Cities of Intrigue line is about detailing a major city and surrounding areas of Faerun it might work well. Many folks are dying for updated information in 4th edition since the campaign guide was pretty sparse on alot of things. If WotC is going to put out books like Neverwinter CG that includes updated lore and adventure hooks and information on various areas across the Realms, I'm going to buy them.
And someone please resurrect Laduguer. I just can't get my head around duergar worshiping Asmodeus and shooting beard quills and stuff. ;)
Agreed. I thought Neverwinter received no love from the TTRPG industry and the only thing going for the area was the games (non-canon mind you). So the fact that they used that city as the first real focus is pretty awesome. Them doing Menzoberranzan.....I'm sorta "meh" about because I already own 3E's Underdark, City of the Spider Queen, Drow of the Underdark supplements and I could just as easily adapt that material to any sort of Drow campaign I want. Same goes for the 4E Underdark sourcebook. So I HOPE they use this supplment to tell us about the history of the city, the major drow houses, major threats of the area, how to incorporate "GOODLY" PCs into the campaign, a few cruch bits about Drow, Driders, Duergar, and maybe a few other suprises. I'm not as enthralled about what sort of mechanics they put out because, as often as not, it'll be helpfull for a few niche character builds.
As for the duergar worshipping Asmodeus and quills......yea I can't say I'm a fan (more about the quills than the devil-god). I just kept Laduguer alive and gave them a homebrew feat that allows them the use of either Invisibility or Giant Growth 1/encounter (which mimics the Drow powers). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 05:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, I hope you don't take offense to this Markus as I generally agree that the Menzoberranzan book has been done to death and would like to have seen something far different. I just don't think they (WotC) can be cited for not listening when I feel no one is saying anything.
Actually, we have been saying PLENTY, here and on the Wizbro boards, and elsewhere, since early 3e.
STOP saying 'there is nothing new to explore' in the old Realms, when 50% of Faerun is still largely undetailed, and over 85% of the planet itself is completely undetailed. Ed could have written 'Volo's Guides' until the end of time, based on just his notes, and would still have to be heavily edited for space.
Not 4e detail - where you give a sparse overview of entire realms - old-school (1e/2e) detail, with NPCs major and minor, and tons of plothooks and interesting locales. Thats what the Realms are all about - the STORIES.
The geography is just a stage; its the actors that mattered.
As for this product, I thought the Neverwinter one was very good, so I have hope that things are as Matt says, and we will get something new after all. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2011 16:51:20 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 13:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, I hope you don't take offense to this Markus as I generally agree that the Menzoberranzan book has been done to death and would like to have seen something far different. I just don't think they (WotC) can be cited for not listening when I feel no one is saying anything.
Actually, we have been saying PLENTY, here and on the Wizbro boards, and elsewhere, since early 3e.
STOP saying 'there is nothing new to explore' in the old Realms, when 50% of Faerun is still largely undetailed, and over 85% of the planet itself is completely undetailed. Ed could have written 'Volo's Guides' until the end of time, based on just his notes, and would still have to be heavily edited for space.
Not 4e detail - where you give a sparse overview of entire realms - old-school (1e/2e) detail, with NPCs major and minor, and tons of plothooks and interesting locales. Thats what the Realms are all about - the STORIES.
The geography is just a stage; its the actors that mattered.
As for this product, I thought the Neverwinter one was very good, so I have hope that things are as Matt says, and we will get something new after all.
I very much believe that the days of 90% Lore, 10% crunch of 2E or the 60% crunch, 40% lore of 3E are long, LONG gone. If we're lucky, we'll get great supplements like the NCG (Neverwinter Campaign Guide) or Shadowfell: Gloomwrough and Beyond which was far more in depth Story/flavor/setting wise than filled with lots of mechanics for a 4E book. Furthermore, both Neverwinter and Gloomwrought could easily be placed in pretty much ANY setting with very little to no changes. That's the thing, it can be Forgotten Realms, but it has to be maleable for sand-box campaigns as well. I say this because I'm a realist and I don't think they'll accept it any other way.
I'd also like to point out that there have been constant changes at WotC from many many directions. So it's no wonder the people running the show now might not have heard the complaits 7 years ago, or even the ones during 4Es debut. Also, the messageboards on WotC are pretty big and voices get lost in the shuffle. If people want their opinions herad, it's better to get ahold of someone via E-mail and make sure there is a large collective doing so. And it's going to have to be focused, not 16 different suggestions and desires about 16 different aspects (gods, cultures, information pre-1479, regions, NPCs, yadda-yadda). It has to be "We want a DDI article focusing on Amaunator's clerics, and some lore about the church during the transition between Lathander and Amaunator. We want the region of Calimshan detailed more. How have Genasi become so popular and where do Tieflings fit in there?"
These are examples of what we can/should be asking for. Whether it's in a setting book such as Neverwinter or in various DDI articles in the Realms. Another such example of a great Realms article is the Artificers of Gond. It was interesting, lore-filled, and had a good amount of crunch for people who just want more artificer stuff.
I also believe there is lots to explore with the Realms, other continents and all that. I'd have liked to seen Returned Abier take over the continent below Maztica, the one that sorta looks like Austraila. But again, you want this information to try to appeal to everyone, and that means that extreamly focued details are going to fall to the wayside a bit in lieu of more known areas of the Realms, and probably more crunch. I'm not saying this is a good way of doing things, but it's reality. |
Edited by - Diffan on 30 Dec 2011 13:01:45 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 20:28:15
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I am of course not an expert or an insider, nor did I do much work on the Menzo book (just a little feedback/plot design). But I have SEEN the Menzo book, know the lead designer working on it, and can assure you that it does NOT fit with Therise's nightmare scenario. Chiefly, it's being designed by a lead designer who is GREAT at story and realmslore. I understand and sympathize with the heartache to get cool stuff (I've felt it as well), and I honestly think that the Menzo book is on the right track.
I'm glad Gloomwrought and the NWCS were brought up, as I feel those reflect the right design path to take (focus on story with heavy lore, which increasingly outweighs the crunch), and I feel Menzo continues the trend (though in its own special way).
I can only recommend you wait and see. I think you'll be pleased.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 21:07:19
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I never described my prediction as some kind of "nightmare scenario". It's just my expectation, based on the past.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 21:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I never described my prediction as some kind of "nightmare scenario". It's just my expectation, based on the past.
Oh no, that was my description of what you outlined. I consider that to be nightmarish, and would hate to see design done that way. (As I think some things have been done in the past.) I'm sorry you have that expectation, but I completely understand why you might. Fortunately, I don't think the Realms is heading in that direction.
Not meaning to put words in your mouth, Lady Therise.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Dec 2011 21:10:28 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 01:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I am of course not an expert or an insider, nor did I do much work on the Menzo book (just a little feedback/plot design). But I have SEEN the Menzo book, know the lead designer working on it, and can assure you that it does NOT fit with Therise's nightmare scenario. Chiefly, it's being designed by a lead designer who is GREAT at story and realmslore. I understand and sympathize with the heartache to get cool stuff (I've felt it as well), and I honestly think that the Menzo book is on the right track.
I'm glad Gloomwrought and the NWCS were brought up, as I feel those reflect the right design path to take (focus on story with heavy lore, which increasingly outweighs the crunch), and I feel Menzo continues the trend (though in its own special way).
I can only recommend you wait and see. I think you'll be pleased.
Cheers
Continues the trend in its own special way? Now that has me interested as to what the theme of the book will be about. :) Maybe we'll see rules for inter-house warfare or running a noble house politics campaign. Only thing I can think of at the moment.
Although there was some odd passage in one of Salvatore's books about Menzoberranzan almost seems to be a place out of time since the Spellplague. Maybe we'll see what that means? And who here wonders if Quenthel Baenre is old Yvonnel Baenre returned in a younger form? I remember reading somewhere(starless night?) Quenthal was referenced as the most similar in appearance and capabilities as her mother.
Man I miss old Matron Baenre and wish we could have seen more of her in action. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 15:53:57
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Wonder how they'll manage it. I despise 4E and post-Spellplague Faerun with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns, but I'm still morbidly curious about how it'll turn out.
Who knows, maybe there'll be bits that are worth being ported back into 3.5Edition.
Things like 'Are they going to tell us WTF is going on with Narbondel now that drow have darkvision, not infravision?' Because there are some bits of 2E drow lore that don't work properly with later editions.
Though admittedly, some of the more drastic lore changes in 4E will be difficult to reconcile. (A lot of drow tactics, psychology and so on being influenced, in the past, by spell resistance and certain innate powers they lack in 4E...)
But working out how things go with the darkvision would be nice. As would any bits of 'how we got here' history that fills in plot developments up to that point (if we know that, say, fifty years ago House X crushed its rivals and became far more powerful, then in campaigns set earlier, one could throw in hints of their slowly increasing power, as their plots gradually come to fruition), provided said history hasn't been mangled too severely by the need to make it fit a 4E status quo. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:14:36
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| I'm also eager about this new book, though I do understand the concerns about it. But recently I think WotC published some really good books. At least, I really do like the Neverwinter Camapaign Setting even thouh I still play 3.5E. |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Topic |
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New Menzoberranzan Sourcebook in the works!
