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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 03:19:37
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It seems like in the realms the forces of good and evil are very well represented but no individuals (or organizations) seem to stand out for the tenets of Neutrality.
If any of you are familiar with GreyHawk, the neutrals had a pretty strong and powerful representation.
Are the Outsider Neutral arch types (Archons/Slaadi) sleeping on the job when it comes to spreading their particular flavors of neutrality to Abeir-Toril?
Also a related question. Which outsider archtype represents "true" neutrals. We have the Guardinals for Neutral Goods , we have the Yugoloths for Nuetral evil , and for Neutral Neutral we have .....?
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 03:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Also a related question. Which outsider archtype represents "true" neutrals. We have the Guardinals for Neutral Goods , we have the Yugoloths for Nuetral evil , and for Neutral Neutral we have .....?
Rilmani are the true neutrals (though they were preceeded by the older and largely vanished Kamarel). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 18:10:16
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I have always felt that nature deities and their servants represent neutrality in the Realms - they are all about 'The Balance' of things.
Just my own gut feeling, is all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 19:31:54
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| Oghma's church is a good example of neutrality too. He even helped Cyric trap Mystra down, just because he asked and knowledge shouldn't be hidden from anyone. I think Mystra herself and her philosophy on maghic is pretty neutral, at least in my games. As for neutral outsiders, I agree that they do not get half the spotlight of demons/devils or celestials. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 01:04:07
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| I think powerful druidic organizations like the Emerald Enclave make up at least one branch of distinct neutrality in the realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2011 : 18:44:21
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According to the FR deity wiki, regarding neutral powers, "In the Forgotten Realms, they take a more subsidiary role than in other campaign settings due to the larger number of nature deities".
So I was right. 
Check the Guardinal entry near the bottom of This List. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:09:50
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In Elminster's Daughter, Mystra showed a surprisingly neutral position when she bade the Symbul to keep hunting Red Wizards for the atrocities they commit, yet at the same time decreed that she wanted their operations to continue.
Also Mystril, the "first" magic deity had to be very neutral to let Karsus finish his spell. If anything could have had knowledge of what was going on and try to stop Karsus, it would be Mystril.
Gond is very neutral, as he will be on the side of anyone who is interested in his contraptions. He assisted both Cyric by giving him firearms and Mystra by giving her mechanical cages to trap Cyric's new minions.
However neutrality isn't an actual "side", like it is in other worlds like Dragonlance. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:42:42
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Mystra is supposed to skew neutral but has in the 2nd/3rd edition been on the "good" side more than neutral. I think it just works with her chosen mostly being goody goody.
The Symbul is Chaotic Neutral ruler but "good tendencies" due to her sisters and Elminster's influence.
Malfiir rules Hillsfar is supposed to be neutral but racist, but he's skewing more evil because he's so racist and has an evil toady whispering in his ear.
I would think Denier, Oghma, Candlekeep, and the nature Gods would be more neutral and balance than evil/good, too. |
Edited by - Seravin on 12 Dec 2011 16:43:46 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:53:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Mystra is supposed to skew neutral but has in the 2nd/3rd edition been on the "good" side more than neutral. I think it just works with her chosen mostly being goody goody.
The Symbul is Chaotic Neutral ruler but "good tendencies" due to her sisters and Elminster's influence.
I think Mystra is selecting 'good' chosens mostly because they are more likely to accept the self-destructing paths she asks of them, for the good of all the Realms. I'd guess that such selfless devotion is rare in non-good followers. Sammaster is a good example of what could go wrong with ill-chosen chosens.
Also, the Avatars novels and the F&P sourcebook displayed Mystra as a good deity, but events in the last novel of the serie suggests that she goes back to a more neutral position. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 17:22:00
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| The harpers claim to be neutral... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 19:38:18
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| The Harpers are many things, but neutral and uninvolved they are not. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 20:22:43
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| Those meddling Harpers... |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 21:00:22
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| I'd think of Harpers as chaotic good for sure. Neutral good...maybe. But true neutral no. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 21:04:34
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A political agenda is a political agenda is a political agenda no matter how you slice the goblin.
Just speculating and wondering (not intentionally hijacking the scroll) but I would think that neutral forces would manifest in one of two ways: either as someone who abstains from picking a side in a conflict, similar to WWII Switzerland or as someone willing to aid either side simply for the asking. Does anyone else have any other thoughts?
Also, I'm curious if anyone has developed a system for measuring how a character's alignment varies from strongly good to strongly evil and all the greyness and ambiguity in between. The same for the Lawful-Chaotic axis. In other words, how do you know when your group's paladin has fallen, your monk's dedication has wavered, or your cleric has lost the favor of their deity?
That discussion might be better placed on a scroll in the Running the Realms area though. |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 12 Dec 2011 21:06:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 00:33:43
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What earlier D&D editions called "True Neutral" would more accurately be described as "Champion of Neutrality" ... people who will constantly switch sides to actively lean the ever-moving cosmic scales more towards the middle, to them every goal is transitory and ultimately abandoned to serve the great cause of Balance. This has always struck me as a somewhat ridiculous attitude - how can you understand Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos yet think of them as completely interchangeable extremes which should all be blindly opposed? - but I suppose it works for Ao and is appealing enough for many others. It has at least been a challenge imposed on those of my PCs who would play druids and otherwise observe no moral/ethical alignment restrictions whatsoever.
Later D&D editions present neutrality, and True Neutral alignments, as more of a passively "Unaligned" sort of attitude. People who basically don't particularly care about the battles between Good and Evil, Law and Chaos; they'll let others fight over such stuff, thinking that it's pointless to champion or die for abstract philosophies. Neutral in this context seems to indicate more of an acceptance that every person is capable of some goodness and some badness, can sometimes prefer structured order and sometimes a little spontaneous chaos. My problem with this "extreme mediocrity" is that it doesn't seem to compel people to become exciting heroes and villains, it reads more like all the what-you-want-to-hear promises in a horoscope than as a serviceable template to model a personality onto.
I agree that the classic D&D 2-axis 9-peg alignment system is quite arbitrary and oversimplified and has caused as many issues as it's resolved. But it's always been around, it's still here now, and it is a fundamental component of what I think D&D is (or should be). Yes, I've implemented guideline metrics to assess how much an alignment is affected by particular attitudes and actions; there's fanatically extreme LG characters who are utterly intolerant of the merest hint of non-Law or non-Good whenever they hear of it, just as there's passively pliant LG characters who try to do the right thing and follow rules but will never champion anything until forcibly confronted. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Dec 2011 00:39:26 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 15:24:16
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There are more types of neutrality, god-like ''lords of balance'' include Primus, the mediators, archfey, slaadi lords, aurumachs, Lady of Pain, Lendys, Chronepsis, Brahma and so on. 4th edition also has the primal spirits.
Many Harpers are druids, they are neutral in their own way |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 18:04:37
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| I would think that nature as a force would fall under the Unaligned attitude. It cares not if you do good or ill. She will sink an evil trading cabal's ship just as indifferently as a renowned pirate hunter's. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 19:37:09
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I'd thought of Primus as Lawful in the extreme, the ultimate manifestation of purest Law, "Lawful" and not "Lawful Neutral"; he is a creature of absolutely imposed order and structure who can hardly comprehend the notions of Good and Evil and cannot possibly see them as relevant - in the mind of Primus, things are Lawful or they are un-Lawful (perhaps to varying degree), and nothing else exists or matters, except as it relates to Lawful order.
I think "Neutral (Balanced)" is given as an alignment descriptor for the Lady of Pain only because her actions collectively express every alignment possibility, unpredictable each moment; she appears to be some kind of avatar of the many-aligned planes themselves, constantly shifting within herself as the planes (or Sigil) progress along their incomprehensibly complex multi-dimensional orbits. A more accurate alignment descriptor would be "Varies/Random". She is like a palette of wild colours which, seen from a distance, blend together into an indescribable neutral tone.
Brahma (in D&D) is really more like an all-encompassing monotheistic deity, he embodies all things - including Good and Evil, Law and Chaos - so "Unaligned" seems like the best descriptor for him, he is a complex composite of infinitely subtle shades. His purposes and actions do not align themselves along the standard axes, he does not champion any alignment causes. Alas, this depends which of the many rewrites about Brahma you accept as definitive; he's been altered (not evolved or improved, just altered) numerous times across several D&D editions.
Slaadi are Chaotic aligned, in no uncertain terms, a manifestation of true randomness. They are as generally disinterested with Good-vs-Evil as are Primus and his modrons.
The enigmatic "Lords of Balance" served by Ao might be True Neutrals, at least it seems like Ao is himself. Then again, Ao seems almost more of an impersonal technician sent to service/repair/replace broken machinery, he certainly seems to lack soft skills and isn't really one for pious smalltalk; just go on-site, fix the problem, do the job, finally submit a report along with the bill. Almost a reluctant version of what druids aspire towards; he remains completely uninvolved (even while the Balance wobbles around) until his intervention is unavoidable, at which point his actions are decisive and final, and I daresay invariably clumsy and heavyhanded. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Dec 2011 21:01:03 |
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Who are the "Lords" of Neutrality in the Realms?
