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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 15:35:10
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good point  |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 19:47:41
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Let's not sell Jarlaxle short. He merits a place on our list of manipulators.
While Szass Tam is superb at issues within Thay and playing his fellow Zulkir like finely tuned fiddles, and may have sights set outside the borders, Jarlaxle, by comparison, has several manipulative campaigns under his belt. At one time, encompassing nearly the entire span of the Sword Coast in their planning, setup, and execution. Not to mention, the fact he necessarily grew up as a master of plotting, misdirection, and intrigue with his roots in Menzoberranzan. At one point, wasn't it suggested that he had a plot in place to manipulate several of the great houses and that House Baenre (the ruling house at the time) would not necessarily approve of it?
The way that LS described him above as '...skips in, schemes his way through a place, then prances out again, laughing all the way....' had me laughing to myself and thinking that he is far to successful for that to be random chance or luck. He is clearly a master planner and manipulator to most always have things work out to his advantage. And along with that line of thinking, wouldn't a true master of manipulation, in addition to setting events up in such a way to provide opportunity for him/her to profit, also have the skill of being able 'go with the flow' if despite months of careful planning and preparation, one mistep by a key player could throw all that planning out the window? Schemes within schemes. (/speculation on) Maybe he's someone's Chosen? Someone who is known for schemes within schemes. (/speculation off)
Still, this is a great discussion able to be adapted and used to generate tons of plot points.
Good Hunting,
Wolfhound |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 23:32:46
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| The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 01:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions.
Frostrune, one of their members, fell prey to Khelben's manipulation. But then again, that's just one member out of the many. And it's likely that the cohesive, manipulative effort of their entire cabal is more far-reaching, well-cloaked, and intricate than their individual goals. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 02:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions.
Frostrune, one of their members, fell prey to Khelben's manipulation. But then again, that's just one member out of the many. And it's likely that the cohesive, manipulative effort of their entire cabal is more far-reaching, well-cloaked, and intricate than their individual goals.
True on both parts, Dennis, but a tiny bit incomplete.
Part of the reason why Khelben had less trouble than he might've normally in herding/manipulating Priamon Rakesk was the tacit (and hidden) aid of his fellow Twisted Rune members....culling him from their number without any direct effort on their parts.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 03:33:12
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Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 04:24:54
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I think the answer would be easier if we would see
more of these grand manipulators in print. We really don't
have enough to go on for some of these names. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 07:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I think the answer would be easier if we would see
more of these grand manipulators in print. We really don't
have enough to go on for some of these names.
My sentiments exactly...for Larloch. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 13:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune?
Page 297 of Blackstaff notes Khelben's aid from the Rune.
As far as I ever planned/thought, Priamon was the only one drummed out of the Rune simply because he raised their visibility too high and made them a target--something at which they excel at avoiding. After all, if people don't even recognize you're there pulling the strings, they don't notice the strings either.
Steven
who now has Bela Lugosi babbling in his head....gee thanks for that, Ed Wood.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune?
Page 297 of Blackstaff notes Khelben's aid from the Rune.
As far as I ever planned/thought, Priamon was the only one drummed out of the Rune simply because he raised their visibility too high and made them a target--something at which they excel at avoiding. After all, if people don't even recognize you're there pulling the strings, they don't notice the strings either.
Steven
who now has Bela Lugosi babbling in his head....gee thanks for that, Ed Wood....
I see. Thanks, Steve. That's a logical resort for the Twisted Rune, I believe. Though, if they deemed Priamon to be of great value, they could have just "forced" him to change his identity or fake his death to cover his tracks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 07:36:58
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Oh no love for Wendonai? If Malkizid played the Vyshaan like an elven minstrel, then surely Wendonai webbed up the rest of the Ilythiiri in fine spidersilk. He also played Elisstrae, Qilue and Cavatina quite masterfully (even though I dislike the entire trilogy as a whole).
On a sidenote, Lloth really played everyone for a fool. From Malkizid and Wendonai, to the other deities of her pantheon and beyond. Too bad Corellon seems to always one up her.
P.S Thread Necromancy >=). The Hand of Vecna strikes again! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:22:31
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| If I wanted to know everything there is to know about Malkizid, where would my reading begin? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
If I wanted to know everything there is to know about Malkizid, where would my reading begin?
The sourcebook, Champions of Ruins has a whole entry devoted to Malkizid. Also there is a trilogy of novels by Rich Baker which has Malkizid as the primary antagonist, the trilogy being the Lost Mythal trilogy. I am not sure if the Lost Empires of Faerun has any info on Malkizid though (cos he was a major influence on the Vyshaanti elves of Aryvaandar) as Wendonai was a major corrupting influence on the Illythiiri. |
Edited by - Aes Tryl on 27 Feb 2012 08:43:08 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:48:12
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| Afaik there is not much info about him. I guess the Grand History and the Last Mythal Trilogy are your best chances |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 09:16:18
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| Thank you, Scribes. That's what I got from the wiki. I thought there may be more. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 09:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Thank you, Scribes. That's what I got from the wiki. I thought there may be more.
I am not so up to date on my Dragon magazine resources, so the more knowledgeable scribes, of which there are many in Candlekeep, would probably know better 
But having gone and pulled out my Champions of Ruin, I do feel that the Malkizid entry has a most comprehensive breakdown of the archdevil/yugoloth lord's background, motivations and goals. It has more info than the forgotten realms wiki provides. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 10:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Biggest Mortal Manipulators and Masterminds: [...]
Manshoon - persistence personified
He's certainly ambitious, but his organization ends up as a sinkhole of incompetence infiltrated by everyone who bothered to. Manshoon himself was splattered again and again, using up a lot of those Stasis Clones.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Elminister- master of benevolent manipulation?
Quite good, but not quite "mortal" - and as a semidivine being, almost supposed to play such games.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Khelben.
In semidivine league again. Even then, Blackstaff is good at direct confrontations and occasionally pulls something sneaky, but... he's too heavy-handed too often. And not all that good at being on top of the situation even with the Western branch of Harpers and later Moonstars as a spy network.
As to manipulations as such, remember his confrontation with Lhaeo in Lands of Intrigue? Heavy-handed plunge into unknown again. Of course, Haedrak himself is exceptionally sneaky and well-trained, but still.
Slarkrethel, if we count semidivines - and he had an impressive resume before he was "adopted".
Shoon VII definitely deserves a mention.
Inselm Hhune may count too. He had a lot of setbacks, but always was ridiculously deft with damage control and seems to be unsinkable. Haedrak III managed to get him somewhat under control, but still had to keep the old double-dealer close and on a high position - however dangerous, he's way too powerful and useful. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 27 Feb 2012 10:18:23 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 13:52:53
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| Elaith is a pretty good manipulator of people. He has built an empire from nothing in Waterdeep albeit a criminal one. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:44:33
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Szass Tam deserves an honorable mention for outsmarting a bunch of (mostly) competent zulkirs and tharachions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 22:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Seethyr, you don't know how much respect you just gained in my eyes for mentioning Malkzid. I would actually place him above Sonneillon, but for reasons that are currently under NDA (muhahahahahahaha)
*cough*
So... will the NDA on Malkizid be resolved with something seeing print within this decade, or is this yet another case of "grit your teeth, make it up for yourself, and hope you guess right"? (Which philosophy, btw, seemed to be the underlying theme of the present (outgoing) edition...)
Anyway... Larloch, Halaster, Manshoon, Mask, and Mystra are my top five. Khelben, Elminster, Shar, Szass Tam, and Asmodeus round out my top ten. I would give honourable mention to Malkizid, who might edge out Asmodeus depending on what Mr. James is referring to... but we'll probably not find out within our lifetimes without becoming WotC employees. Or so I've come to believe when it comes to any of the "big, burning questions" of the Realms. As I've recently asked Ed, what good are all these layers of manipulation and detail if nobody is ever allowed to see them without working for the Company? (And I use that capital "C" deliberately there.)
Edit: I agree that products must be planned in advance, and we don't want clashes between old lore and new lore... but we've had far more issues with the latter since RSE-mania began, with nothing to do with the writers or keeping secrets from the fan base. It's all about research... if you don't like doing research, you shouldn't be working on the Realms, and if you want to work on the Realms, learn to deal with the research. As DMs, it's our choice to pick and choose from past canon; as shapers of that canon, I respectfully suggest to those who would do so (and have done so) with less sensitivity that it's not their call to make. My ideal FR supplement would consist of Ed's notes, even if the handwritten stuff is just scanned, not even retyped, and as many pages of them as you can legibly fit into one book. Of course, not having seen Ed's handwriting, I realize there's a possibility that I've bitten off more than I can chew there... but that brings me back to topic. The single biggest mastermind in the Realms of all: Ed!  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 28 Feb 2012 22:24:53 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 01:02:27
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@Jakk
Interesting top 5. But Larloch and Halaster are very rarely involved in real world affairs and their schemes are pretty blatant most of the times. Ie How Priamon "Frostrun" Rasek and the rest of the Twisted Rune got the jump on Halaster. Halaster has always seemed a bit more heavy handed in the use of his power. And Larloch, as I have mentioned previously, is normally so introspective and focused on his own research that he doesn't bother manipulating anything much. The one major gambit we do hear about (blueflame ghosts and the Imprisoners) had already been traced to it's source and took the express forbiddance from Mystra herself to allow that plan to blossom into fruition anyhow. That doesn't really smack me as being a mastermind tbh
Also the only reason, I think Manshoon gets so many mentions is cos he is a cockroach and makes liberal use of the "clone" spell. If he hadn't, most of his schemes and far reaching influences would have been moot. Kinda like a one-trick pony or a specific schtick PC character (whose DM would probably have banned the clone spell after that)
@Lord Karsus
Yeah Semmemon is a player! He's played all sides (including Manshoon) and eventually managed to end up right where he wanted, through dint of intelligence, scheming and desperation. |
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Biggest Masterminds and Manipulators in the Realms
