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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!

So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!

So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.

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WotC's basic stance has been that nothing of interest happened during the timejump. Until the current design directive changes, that blank spot in the history of the Realms is going to remain mostly untouched -- because WotC doesn't do lore, now, they only care about adventures. We might get some nuggets here and there, if it supports the current adventure, but that's it.

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Originally posted by Eldacar

While I haven’t gone heavily into my 5e sources to check beyond SCAG, are there actually many or any big temples to Mystra that are mentioned in them? Adventures, or even Adventurer’s League. I genuinely can’t think of any. Halruaa was busy being a crater or the equivalent during the 4e era, and that was a big chunk of Mystra worship. They did come back in 5e after sending themselves to Abeir for 4E, though, so they should be intact.

The only thing that comes to mind above all is that the Knights of the Mystic Fire (her paladin order) are a valid background for a character to pick.

While the Harpers exist and have possibly included promotion of Mystra resurrected and her faith, the actual “Church of Mystra” as an organisation is probably still in a shambles. And Mystra herself is likely still as of current time in 5e FR (since she was whole again by 1487) putting her church back together, given that the most recent adventure is Descent into Avernus and that was 1494. Less than a decade isn’t much time.

Halruaa going to Abeir and coming back whole would mean that her entire organisation there is roughly (ish?) in a state where it could be rebuilt, but I doubt that there would be major, grand temples like what she used to have. The Silverymoon moon bridge returning along with Mystra also would probably kickstart some Mystra worship there (Silverymoon is stated in SCAG to have a number of shrines or temples to her), and her faith is now “pervasive” (but a lot of clerics and priests and clergy doesn’t equate to organisation, mind). And there are the Mystic Fire Knights I mentioned, too. Half-elves are “often” choosing Mystra as a patron goddess if they are wizards.

Azuth is probably busy rebuilding his clergy. 5e said that “few pay homage to Azuth” so he is probably very limited organisationally right now. His SCAG profile mentions that his shrines are scarce and clerics are extremely rare.

Anyway, this is mostly just rambling now and I might poke through AL stuff or the adventures I have later, but from the looks of it Mystra’s church is probably quite decentralised at the moment, and ripe for a loyal “player character follower” to devote themselves to rebuilding it as it once was. Which may be intentional, I don’t know.

But on the Sword Coast, I would expect a very decentralised and probably not very organised clergy, no major temples, just smaller more personal shrines and low level itinerant priests, even Waterdeep probably doesn’t have anything of note besides Laeral running the place (and Baldur’s Gate would have even less of importance for her church). In the North more generally, she is likely centering her church in Silverymoon, so you might see larger more organised religion there. In the South, Halruaa again most probably. Heartlands and Sea of Fallen Stars? No idea.

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Originally posted by Eldacar

That sounds like you’re writing something that is basically the same as the Nether Scrolls. The Scrolls are a repository of knowledge as well, and a “backup copy” of the Art as set up by Mystra (and to a lesser extent Azuth). Unless the comparison/duplicate aspect is intentional.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!

So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

No, it isn't magical in the least bit. If you don't know already how to cast arcane magic, it won't do you any good. And it doesn't give you the answer. It is just a thaumaturgical research aid that will help an arcane caster get to being able to reliably cast spells in the new environment in a shorter amount of time. Any arcane caster can come up with the same "fix" without the book.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Any input is helpful. I am just trying to determine how a Mystran temple would react. I can see wizards going there for advice after magic gets messed up. Once the priests provide the help they can (via the previously mentioned book), what do they do? In 2e, a priest could get back up to level 3 spells (I think it was level 3, may be level 2) if they couldn't reach their deity. I don't think that would apply now since the deity in question is gone so they would be completely without magic. So, you have a group of very faithful people with high willpower. I don't see them just going "well, it was fun while it lasted but I think I will take up farming now". I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).

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Originally posted by Eldacar

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).

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Quite a lot of them lost the faith. Faiths and Avatars discussed how "many" followers and churches turned to other faiths, there was utter pandemonium among the clergy, and when Lliira's prophet showed up to say she'd hold the portfolio in trust, "the Waukeenar temples, already battered by a loss of respect and worshipers, readily agreed" and their entire faith was simply folded into Lliira. Any dissenters moved to Tymora/Lathander/Shaundakul/Beshaba. After she escaped Graz'zt, the Waukeenar who went to Lathander and Lliira returned to Waukeen, but the new Tymorans and Shaundakuns noticeably did not (again, per F&A).

Using that as a basis, it's also worth noting that Waukeen's disappearance was for a mere five years before her church very nearly entirely collapsed even with Lliira to safeguard the portfolio. Really, you could say it did collapse and be pretty accurate, since Lliira's church more or less took over at that point. Even then, there was significant difficulty once Waukeen came back after 10-12 years, because many of her followers didn't leave their new gods to go back to the old one.

Mystra and Azuth and Savras were dead for a hundred years. That is an order of magnitude more. Entire generations have gone by, of humans and half-elves and even an elf generation (ish). And these gods weren't just mysteriously absent with nobody knowing what happened, as Waukeen was. Cyric and Shar and Asmodeus killed them.

So initially you may have the makings of a Waukeenar situation, but from the outset there are going to be different elements. They didn't just go down to the store for cigarettes and never return, and aren't just letting the prayer-phone ring off the hook. I feel reasonably safe in saying that their churches and clergy likely collapsed more quickly than the Waukeenar faith did, especially with no other god stepping in to hold the portfolios in trust.

After a hundred years? They're rebuilding from square one save for the exceptional situations (Halruaa, Silverymoon). Even those exceptions are going to get an almost total overhaul. It's unlikely that many people more broadly worship them unless they're an older elf or a new convert. Believe that they're back and exist again? Sure. But actual clerics, priests, clergy is a different matter.

Anyway, those are just some more rambling thoughts, bouncing off the Waukeen mention.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).

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Originally posted by Eldacar

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).

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Velsharoon survived the initial collapse, but only lived for another forty years or so. I think it’s the 4e FRCS that talks about it. He was mysteriously burned up as part of something (I forget what) that happened in Aglarond, which also allegedly killed the Simbul (she survived it obviously, per Ed’s novels). Meanwhile, the Aglarondans claimed his corpse, which to me says that Mystra dying and the Weave going haywire probably knocked him out of divinity and down to some sort of quasi-god status. He may well have been attempting, together with the Simbul, to somehow resurrect the Weave and Mystra (or do so with him as the new Mystra, using the Simbul as a catalyst). Instead he ends up burning himself to “death” and turning into some sort of vestigial entity until Mystra returns, the Sundering happens, and Ao perhaps restores him to godhood.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!

So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.

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This is PARTLY one of the reasons why I like my idea that "some gods actually went to Abeir". If there's returning cities and such that never lost the worship of Leira, Deneir, Savras, Mystra, Mask, Lathander, Talos, or ANY of the other gods who are coming back, we can see them quickly possibly "moving in" to recover old temples and such in the past few years. So, maybe the temple in Waterdeep was abandoned.... but as Halruaa returns it sends a representative to Waterdeep to refurbish the place.

The same may be true of places that "transferred" to Abeir but whose gods remained in Toril. There might be a returning of clergy into these returning lands seeking to repopulate the temples.

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The same question needs to be asked for a LOT of temples
Mystra, Azuth, Auppenser, Savras, Deneir, Eldath, Mask, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Talos, and Velsharoon all disappeared in the years leading up to the spellplague and prior to the start of 4e... and that's just the faerunian pantheon without the various racial pantheons or pantheons outside of Faerun taken into account. Also, with some that disappeared in 2nd/3rd edition (Myrkul, Bhaal, Leira, Iyachtu Xvim, and even in theory Malyk who shows up in MToF) that are or may also be back. Granted, some we were given explanations for (Lathanderites rebadged as Amaunator, Talos supposedly became Gruumsh, Tyr's worshippers started worshipping Torm or Bahamut)

For example, did the former temples of Talos become temples to Gruumsh or Auril or even possibly Istishia? What's happening with them now?

In the case of Mystra its especially interesting though because ALL of her servitor deities except for Velsharoon died following the spellplague's start.... and even "alternate" deities like Deneir whose ethos might have been able to stretch some also seemed to go away. You only get left with like Selune, Oghma, and Lurue.... and I don't see any of those 3 EXCEPT maybe Oghma accepting Velsharoon as a servitor. Nor do I see Mystrans accepting Velsharoon as the new "god of magic". Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).

On an aside here, with both Mystra and Helm gone, this is when I felt that the Red Knight might make an effective "goddess of spell and magical strategy".... essentially, when Mystra comes back, this goddess just might be serving both Tempus and Mystra (like Velsharoon had been doing to a degree, so its not an unheard of situation).

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Originally posted by SaMoCon

If you are talking about the effects of the Spell Plague and loss of many key gods for many generations, an absent and completely overlooked aspect of this is the sudden and irrevocable loss of real power by the civilizations of humans, elves, gnomes, halflings, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. All civilizations used magic to bolster their capabilities and depended upon supernatural powers for their projections of force. We only needed to look as far as the PrC-centered organizations/armies and their dependence on magical powers to see the truth that magic was essential for civilizations to defend themselves and keep order. The sheer number of clerics and other faith based casters whom were suddenly abandoned as well as all surviving arcane casters whom were suddenly powerless would have created chaos and a power vacuum. "Might makes right," would have been the rule of that time period with many opportunistic leaders of bully-boys seizing power thus precipitating a rise of the warrior aristocracy. It would not have taken long for the savage humanoids outside of these civilizations to figure out that the fulcrum of power has shifted in their favor foreshadowing the doom or diminishing of long-standing nations bordering hostile barbarian/inhuman hordes. This should have been more devastating than the collapse of the Roman Empire in bringing a dark age upon the FR in depopulating lands and depriving the few descendants of many rights & freedoms that their ancestors enjoyed once the likes of powerful & intelligent monsters enslaved the people who could not flee to the reduced centers of power and the newly displaced who did make it were relegated to the bottom rungs of society. There were great ecological calamities that wrought destruction across the land destroying topography in such a way that the much more frail infrastructures, land works, and structures would have been damaged if not destroyed. Resource trade would have been in disarray because of disrupted transportation networks, destroyed industries, and ruined harvests. What follows is pestilence, disease, famine, and war - truly dark days.

But WotC just blithely ignored that and the very likely outcome that humans would no longer have a dominant hand in controlling the land some 100 years later. What should have followed was the age of the monstrous humanoids with humanity clinging to a few isolated bastions or otherwise prostrating themselves for the protection by the undeniably powerful giants, dragons, and other entities with which bargains of sanctuary can be made. The banners of orcs & goblinoids would wave over many formerly proud human cities. At least, that's my take.

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Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, we do have a documented ten years where "magic wasn't the greatest". I'm sure someone will come along and quote something that says magic was dead entirely, but we have clear cut cases that that wasn't the state of things. I agree, there should have been a rise in the warrior class for a few generations. Even after that, magic just wasn't as powerful as pre-spellplague (and ostensibly even post second sundering it still isn't, though there are SOME things that are). We should be seeing more places in Faerun where the leadership of a warrior caste has taken root more (for instance, while Rashemen always had a reverence for warriors, I can see there being a lot more power in the huhrong over the wychlaran now... he would be less symbolic and would probably have his own surrounding council of which the wychlaran would be one piece..... similarly, in Aglarond, it would be much more focused on leadership with rangers and such very involved.... in Impiltur, well that's so changed that I have trouble picturing how they went from a shining, knight filled realm to a realm filled with fiends and demon cultists sacrificing humans in just a century, so I'd rather picture it emerging with a young king rising up to refound the country for a third time)

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Time travel? I would say that would be blocked by ripples of the timestream caused by the Spellplague (otherwise, someone may have fixed the Spellplague out of existence).

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

One question I have is about wild magic/dead magic zones pre- and post-Spellplague. Would the "reset" done to magic have cleared those or would they be back either after things settle down(1395) or when Mystra came back?

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Originally posted by SaMoCon

If you are talking about the effects of the Spell Plague and loss of many key gods for many generations, an absent and completely overlooked aspect of this is the sudden and irrevocable loss of real power by the civilizations of humans, elves, gnomes, halflings, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. All civilizations used magic to bolster their capabilities and depended upon supernatural powers for their projections of force. We only needed to look as far as the PrC-centered organizations/armies and their dependence on magical powers to see the truth that magic was essential for civilizations to defend themselves and keep order. The sheer number of clerics and other faith based casters whom were suddenly abandoned as well as all surviving arcane casters whom were suddenly powerless would have created chaos and a power vacuum. "Might makes right," would have been the rule of that time period with many opportunistic leaders of bully-boys seizing power thus precipitating a rise of the warrior aristocracy. It would not have taken long for the savage humanoids outside of these civilizations to figure out that the fulcrum of power has shifted in their favor foreshadowing the doom or diminishing of long-standing nations bordering hostile barbarian/inhuman hordes. This should have been more devastating than the collapse of the Roman Empire in bringing a dark age upon the FR in depopulating lands and depriving the few descendants of many rights & freedoms that their ancestors enjoyed once the likes of powerful & intelligent monsters enslaved the people who could not flee to the reduced centers of power and the newly displaced who did make it were relegated to the bottom rungs of society. There were great ecological calamities that wrought destruction across the land destroying topography in such a way that the much more frail infrastructures, land works, and structures would have been damaged if not destroyed. Resource trade would have been in disarray because of disrupted transportation networks, destroyed industries, and ruined harvests. What follows is pestilence, disease, famine, and war - truly dark days.

But WotC just blithely ignored that and the very likely outcome that humans would no longer have a dominant hand in controlling the land some 100 years later. What should have followed was the age of the monstrous humanoids with humanity clinging to a few isolated bastions or otherwise prostrating themselves for the protection by the undeniably powerful giants, dragons, and other entities with which bargains of sanctuary can be made. The banners of orcs & goblinoids would wave over many formerly proud human cities. At least, that's my take.

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