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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 17:49:32
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I get that feeling although realistically they could dominate the realms. Since the demise of Ostoria has there ever been a serious push for the Giant races to reunite?
Also can giants interbreed? For example a stone giant and a fire giant etc?
Finally what is your favorite type of Giant?
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 18:48:41
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Since the Twilight Giants trilogy, I haven't heard much of the giant races at all. I don't necessarily think this means they're going extinct or any such thing, just that they haven't really been involved too heavily in any of the RSEs of recent.
Since there are half-giants, primarily in the Dark Sun setting where a human and a giant can have children, I cant imagine how two different types of giants also could not. I've never heard of any funky giant crossbreeds anywhere before so perhaps the children end up favoring one of the parent's races only. I'm sure the whole breeding (ahem) process might be quite painful for a frost/fire giant combo.
Personally, I have always loved the nordic/viking feel of the Frost Giants. Of course, the recent Thor movie might also have had a small effect on this,
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 21:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Since the Twilight Giants trilogy, I haven't heard much of the giant races at all. I don't necessarily think this means they're going extinct or any such thing, just that they haven't really been involved too heavily in any of the RSEs of recent.
Since there are half-giants, primarily in the Dark Sun setting where a human and a giant can have children, I cant imagine how two different types of giants also could not. I've never heard of any funky giant crossbreeds anywhere before so perhaps the children end up favoring one of the parent's races only. I'm sure the whole breeding (ahem) process might be quite painful for a frost/fire giant combo.
Personally, I have always loved the nordic/viking feel of the Frost Giants. Of course, the recent Thor movie might also have had a small effect on this,
Yes Frost Giants are pretty much like big Barbarians. I believe the Demon Prince Kostchtchie was originally a Frost Giant...
I like Firbolgs and the whole inability to lie thing.
Eldritch Giants intrigue me
...we need to see more of them
Finally Storm Giants - Love he whole idea of having 20 foot tall, generally good aligned, chaotic ranger types running round tossing lighting bolts....
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 21:47:16
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Some of my research into the far North and Giant realms has lead me to believe there have been at least two periods of Ostoria, and at least three separate 'Giant Kingdoms' in the far north.
Bear in mind Ancient Ostoria was composed of at least seven Realms - one for each son of Annam - and perhaps even a few sub-provinces representing the Giant-Kin; this means that some of the later Giant Kingdoms (including Jhothûn and the somewhat later iteration of Ostoria) may have been 'survivor states'. Just because their empire fell at one point does not mean that several of it's pieces could not have survived into modern times.
I think the Giants have been in decline since their war with the Dragons. FR's canon history is a bit fuzzy on this point, since the Twilight Giants trilogy (and associated short story) leads one to believe they brought-about their own destruction. I personally feel it is some combination of the two (giantish history being unwilling to give any credit to the dragons for their fall).
I also feel the Elves were somehow involved, although it could have been indirect - the First (non-Eladrin) Elves to arrive on Toril were sent by the Fey to stop the Dragons (to stop them from accomplishing what, exactly, is unknown). There is also some primordial (period of time, not BEING  ) connection between dwarves and giants, also very vague and yet to be explored (their runes and Rune-magic appear to be related, and both are races 'of the earth').
So we have canon history that Elves, Dwarves, and Giants have all gone to war with Dragons in ancient times. There doesn't seem to be any specific animosity between Elves and Giants (perhaps both are some sort of 'eldritch race'), but their is quite a bit of hatred between Dwarves and Giants (which makes me wonder what would happen if those two groups were mutually threatened by a pack of dragons).
I would probably just chalk all of this up to Elves manipulating 'lesser races' (read: anyone besides other Elves/Eladrin/Fey) to do their 'dirty work'. Elves and dwarves have never had much love for each other either, but as far as I know, their has never been any 'great war' between them (discounting local disagreements and other planes of existence).
My own take: I think True primordial Giants were 'Caretakers of the Earth', when the world(s) were first created, and were probably present (but hidden) when the Creator Races ruled on Abeir-Toril. Somehow, when the 'great disaster' struck (WoL&D?) and nearly wiped-out the Creator-Races, the Dragons rose to prominence, which created an artificial imbalance and forced the Giants to once-again take a more active role.
This means that giants go into a hibernation-like state, akin to the Elven retreat, and withdraw from the 'mortal world' until needed.
Also, I think the ancient giants were ruled (if not created) by THE Primordials, and not deities, which would make Annam a Primordial. It just makes more sense that way, IMHO. The primordials seem more connected to the Elements and the maintenance of the natural world, rather then the creatures that dwell upon it. The Giants own indifference toward most other races lends itself well to this outlook. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2011 21:52:08 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 01:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some of my research into the far North and Giant realms has lead me to believe there have been at least two periods of Ostoria, and at least three separate 'Giant Kingdoms' in the far north.
Bear in mind Ancient Ostoria was composed of at least seven Realms - one for each son of Annam - and perhaps even a few sub-provinces representing the Giant-Kin; this means that some of the later Giant Kingdoms (including Jhothûn and the somewhat later iteration of Ostoria) may have been 'survivor states'. Just because their empire fell at one point does not mean that several of it's pieces could not have survived into modern times.
Interesting theory, certainly seems plausible...
quote:
I think the Giants have been in decline since their war with the Dragons. FR's canon history is a bit fuzzy on this point, since the Twilight Giants trilogy (and associated short story) leads one to believe they brought-about their own destruction. I personally feel it is some combination of the two (giantish history being unwilling to give any credit to the dragons for their fall).
I also feel the Elves were somehow involved, although it could have been indirect - the First (non-Eladrin) Elves to arrive on Toril were sent by the Fey to stop the Dragons (to stop them from accomplishing what, exactly, is unknown). There is also some primordial (period of time, not BEING ) connection between dwarves and giants, also very vague and yet to be explored (their runes and Rune-magic appear to be related, and both are races 'of the earth').
I too have noticed the connection between dwarves and Giants,and I'll add, why do Fire Giants look like blown up dwarves? Something is going on there....
quote:
So we have canon history that Elves, Dwarves, and Giants have all gone to war with Dragons in ancient times. There doesn't seem to be any specific animosity between Elves and Giants (perhaps both are some sort of 'eldritch race'), but their is quite a bit of hatred between Dwarves and Giants (which makes me wonder what would happen if those two groups were mutually threatened by a pack of dragons).
I would probably just chalk all of this up to Elves manipulating 'lesser races' (read: anyone besides other Elves/Eladrin/Fey) to do their 'dirty work'. Elves and dwarves have never had much love for each other either, but as far as I know, their has never been any 'great war' between them (discounting local disagreements and other planes of existence).
Well I don't believes the elves ever enslaved the Dwarves and logistically they favor different environments so I'm guessing they probably didn't rub shoulders too often.
quote:
My own take: I think True primordial Giants were 'Caretakers of the Earth', when the world(s) were first created, and were probably present (but hidden) when the Creator Races ruled on Abeir-Toril. Somehow, when the 'great disaster' struck (WoL&D?) and nearly wiped-out the Creator-Races, the Dragons rose to prominence, which created an artificial imbalance and forced the Giants to once-again take a more active role.
This means that giants go into a hibernation-like state, akin to the Elven retreat, and withdraw from the 'mortal world' until needed.
Also, I think the ancient giants were ruled (if not created) by THE Primordials, and not deities, which would make Annam a Primordial. It just makes more sense that way, IMHO. The primordials seem more connected to the Elements and the maintenance of the natural world, rather then the creatures that dwell upon it. The Giants own indifference toward most other races lends itself well to this outlook.
Again you could be on the something here, something big - pardon the pun  But it's interesting to note that many Titans tend to think of themselves as Gods. Well perhaps (if they are indeed directly related to Primordials ), they are "Gods"of a sort.
But according to some history of the F.R. time line I read somewhere, Giants were pretty much at their peak when the first Dragons started popping out of the sky not in stealth mode...
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 11:14:34
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| Drizzt Do'Urden has certainly killed a good few giants in his career, maybe they are going extinct ... |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 11:46:34
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They have to be rare otherwise they would rule the planet
in my homebrew world humans and giants are related, not dwarves
Eldritch, death, firbolg, Fhoimorien and rune giants are my favorite types |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 12:18:58
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| Maybe the decline of giants is connected to Annam's retreat into isolation to become an overpower |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 20:34:07
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Toril is a BIG place (I forget the exact percentage bigger it is then Earth). I even demonstrated in another thread that an entire (large) continent can fit between Kara-Tur and Maztica/Achorome', without any squeezing. There are many, MANY undetailed regions, including Katashaka, Anchorome', and Osse, along with at least 5 immense islands.
In other words, the giants may be 'rare' in the Realms (which I actually don't believe to be true), but that doesn't mean they are rare elsewhere, and could even be the dominant species elsewhere.
I can't remember any giants in the Maztica material but Native Americans did indeed have myths about giants, so it would make some sense if the FR derivation (northern Maztica & Anchorome) had them.
Zakhara DEFINITELY has giants - several groups, in fact - as does K-T. Oriental Giants appear to be more Hill-giant sized, and interact with their non-giant neighbors. AFAIK, the K-T giants are of one race, and somewhat more intelligent then standard Hill Giants (they may be related to the ancient Ogres of Faerûn, which were smarter and more advanced then the modern ones).
I need to say at this point that for years, MY FR has been diverging from the canon one, more and more as time went on, in order for my game world to better fit with my own cosmology. I finally made the decision awhile back to completely divorce my setting from FR, and the giant-lore had a big part in that decision (but NOT the biggest part... but that's fuel for another thread). I decided I truly hate lore that makes certain things way too FR-specific, because that doesn't work within my cosmological framework - I can't rationalize Annam creating the various races on Toril, because they exist everywhere else as well (and many pre-date the FR giants).
There is even a major continuity glitch regarding Titans in the GHotR, so if the designers can't reconcile the non-sensical lore, then how are we supposed to? Troy Denning did no-one a favor with his series (which I have no problem with if it was a stand-alone setting, but I feel its connections to FR are non-existent, and just creates more problems). If anything, I would place Twilight Vale off-world - perhaps in the Feywild - and it would work better. In fact, I give my full permission for WotC to use that - now that I am thinking on it more, it is the best possible fix. The time-distortion effects of Faerie could even explain some of the continuity gaffs.
Homebrew:
In my setting, all giants are of one race, and they continue growing throughout their near-immortal lives (similar to Gloranthan/Runequest Giants). They make certain choices during their lives, which leads to the various groups (like choosing an Elemental calling, for example). Also, all giants are male... sort of...
Female giants are called Hags. 
So you can see why I had to make a clean break from FR and D&D for my gaming. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Oct 2011 20:47:25 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 00:38:11
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It's stuff like this I'd love to see more articles in the DDi articles on. But for some reason they keep giving us info on some arrogant noble family in one city, some vague fluff on some magic items tied to a small organization, or some vague NPC in some vaguely described town. The Realmslore on DDi have been very...slim pickings, so to speak.
Whatever happened to articles on entire cities? (Heliogabalus is long overdue, still don't even have a map of the place) Or articles on deities or pantheons? Regional articles? (Only one I remember was the one Vaasa article they did in Dungeon #177, how about one on Sossal?)
To keep in line with this topic, they can do a Realmslore article on some much helpful historical fluff on the Time of the Giants era. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 01:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
It's stuff like this I'd love to see more articles in the DDi articles on. But for some reason they keep giving us info on some arrogant noble family in one city, some vague fluff on some magic items tied to a small organization, or some vague NPC in some vaguely described town. The Realmslore on DDi have been very...slim pickings, so to speak.
Whatever happened to articles on entire cities? (Heliogabalus is long overdue, still don't even have a map of the place) Or articles on deities or pantheons? Regional articles? (Only one I remember was the one Vaasa article they did in Dungeon #177, how about one on Sossal?)
To keep in line with this topic, they can do a Realmslore article on some much helpful historical fluff on the Time of the Giants era.
I agree the Lore seems to be missing from the realms...I'm really not into the royal court intrigue stuff, it's quite boring IMO. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 10:03:44
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Giants are hardly my favorite race. However, I find Storm Giants interesting somewhat. And if I’m not mistaken, they are used in the novels more often than others. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 13:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Giants are hardly my favorite race. However, I find Storm Giants interesting somewhat. And if I’m not mistaken, they are used in the novels more often than others.
I would have to go with Hill Giants as my favorite. Their intellectual contribution to novels and the setting is unmatched. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 19:50:42
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| If that were true, Bladewind, then why stop at human-size? Why not continue to generate subsequently smaller "giants" until they become halfling-sized or pixie-sized? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 20:12:56
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Because 'human size' is the goodest size that ever wasest - everyone knows that!
Lets not forget that Firbolga can alter their size, as can Spriggans (and I think Duergar could, originally, IIRC).
Firbolgs shrink to near human size, and spriggans can grow even larger then a human (IIRC). Some interesting correlations, there. Hags were also known to be able to alter their size (although I can't recall if any of the D&D varieties can) and appearance.
Most Fey races - including the ones not normally associated with Fey, like goblins, trolls, giants, etc - can alter either their appearance or size, or both. Considering the Fey penchant for illusions (Glamours), one must wonder if the Fey have taken illusions to their ultimate level - an illusion that cannot be disbelieved is pretty much real, for all intents and purposes.
Could this also be some sort of evolutionary 'trick', where these ancient peoples have learned to either hide from humanity, or blend into it? Those creatures in the second Hellboy movie spring to mind.
I always knew my neighbor was a troll.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2011 00:59:52 |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2011 : 12:55:09
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| Firbolgs & Fomorians are my favorite types of giant (kin). |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Are Giants becoming extinct in the realms?
