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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:51:01
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Anyways I got the book Darkhold that came with the Castles boxed set (that is the only thing from the box I have). In the book, it mentions the color map of Darkhold, but looking at pics online of the box, I only see 3D castle terrain, which I don't care about, but the map, does it exist? If so, my collection is incomplete without it. Should I spend the money to just buy a sealed box of Castles??
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The map exists. I have it. There was a poster map for each of the three castles detailed in there. Check out the link below for more info on the boxed set. 
http://www.tsrinfo.net/archive/dd1/castles.htm
....I've been swindled by the seller  ....it was so many years ago so i don't remember if it was part of a bundle or what....anyone around here got a spare??? (that's like asking if anyone here has a spare RPGA only 2E FR adventure). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:23:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The map exists. I have it. There was a poster map for each of the three castles detailed in there. Check out the link below for more info on the boxed set.
http://www.tsrinfo.net/archive/dd1/castles.htm
....I've been swindled by the seller ....it was so many years ago so i don't remember if it was part of a bundle or what....anyone around here got a spare??? (that's like asking if anyone here has a spare RPGA only 2E FR adventure).
Sites like NobleKnight.com often have old game stuff for decent prices. I myself found a copy of Castles that was in very good shape -- the box was beat up, but the contents were like new -- just a couple years ago, on eBay. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:41:13
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| Aight thanks Wooly I'll take a look there. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Aight thanks Wooly I'll take a look there.
Good hunting!
My first copy of Darkhold, I got separately, and didn't even know about the boxed set... The second time around, I wound up with another stray copy of Darkhold, then one day decided to look for the entire box. And when I did find it, I paid less than cover price for it. eBay's been really good to me, that way -- I've rarely paid as much as cover price, even for hard to find stuff, like the Iron Kingdoms books or that one Planescape boxed set I needed to complete my collection. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 01:07:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sites like NobleKnight.com often have old game stuff for decent prices.
I saw a copy on dragontrove.com too, a few months back. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 02:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My first copy of Darkhold, I got separately, and didn't even know about the boxed set...
Exactly same thing here. I figured when I started actually reading it (since I've owned it for about 7-8 years) that it was a companion for "Castles", and as I read further on, I found out it originally came in the box. My heart sunk when I read about the color map  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 16:28:33
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Posted on behalf of The Hooded One, who just dropped offline to go to work, but sent me this via smartphone:
Hi, Alisttair. Just wanted to alert you that Ed provided a second part of a reply to a query from you from some months back, in his Questions thread...
love,
THO |
Edited by - Blueblade on 01 Oct 2011 16:29:28 |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2011 : 10:32:37
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You must get that map!
It's a treasure! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 16:41:52
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I didn't even know there was an FR map in that box (I had it, but I don't think I ever looked through it). 
Anyhow, I have a question, and since its the most recent thread with 'Darkhold' in the title, here goes...
What happened to Darkhold after the Spellplague? I know Zhentil Keep was squashed, but what about this fortress/city? And while I am at it, what about the Citadel of the Raven? Were all the Zhent strongholds obliterated by the Netherese? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 16:57:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't even know there was an FR map in that box (I had it, but I don't think I ever looked through it).
Anyhow, I have a question, and since its the most recent thread with 'Darkhold' in the title, here goes...
What happened to Darkhold after the Spellplague? I know Zhentil Keep was squashed, but what about this fortress/city? And while I am at it, what about the Citadel of the Raven? Were all the Zhent strongholds obliterated by the Netherese?
Pretty sure it was only the Keep that was smashed, and that, inexplicably, the Zhents weren't able to quickly rebuild it, this time. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 18:49:56
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| Design move to have the Shades be the "big baddies". Still the Shades are nothing compared to the Zhents, you simply can“t put someone else in the spot they successfully held for nearly two decades. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 19:51:29
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Okay, so they decided to wipe-out the Zhents, and somehow either didn't know the Zhents were spread all over Faerūn, or they gave up (realizing Zhents are like cockroaches). 
Anyhow, want to know a useless yet interesting factoid I just discover about a minute ago - if you go by the official 3e campaign map, Zhentil keep and Darkhold are EXACTLY the same distance from Shade. What a co-inky-dink!* 
I guess they never bother to look south. Realistically, they probably just didn't want to get that close to Evereska again. They also wanted to cripple the Zhentarim, but didn't want to invest a monumental amount of time and resources hunting every last one of them down. Or it could just be they were annoyed by the cross-desert route, and just want to put an end to that (forcing the Zhents to take the more southern route through the Stonelands, Goblin Marches, and Tunlands, which would put them in further contention with Cormyr, the Shades' other enemy).
At least thats the logic I am going with.
*For non-Americans, or anyone who doesn't recognize that, its urban-slang for coincidence. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 19:53:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 20:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, so they decided to wipe-out the Zhents, and somehow either didn't know the Zhents were spread all over Faerūn, or they gave up (realizing Zhents are like cockroaches).
Anyhow, want to know a useless yet interesting factoid I just discover about a minute ago - if you go by the official 3e campaign map, Zhentil keep and Darkhold are EXACTLY the same distance from Shade. What a co-inky-dink!*
I guess they never bother to look south. Realistically, they probably just didn't want to get that close to Evereska again. They also wanted to cripple the Zhentarim, but didn't want to invest a monumental amount of time and resources hunting every last one of them down. Or it could just be they were annoyed by the cross-desert route, and just want to put an end to that (forcing the Zhents to take the more southern route through the Stonelands, Goblin Marches, and Tunlands, which would put them in further contention with Cormyr, the Shades' other enemy).
At least thats the logic I am going with.
*For non-Americans, or anyone who doesn't recognize that, its urban-slang for coincidence.
As much as I hate to defend any aspect of the 4E Realms, if dramatically limiting Zhent activity was the goal, going for the Keep instead of Darkhold makes more sense. Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven are Zhentish strongholds, but Zhentil Keep was the spiritual, economical, and political center of Zhent activity. Smashing the Keep is a huge set back for the Zhentarim -- taking Darkhold or the Citadel of the Raven would have been military setbacks, and would not have affected the Black Network nearly as much.
So I think attacking Zhentil Keep makes sense -- assuming there was a reason for the Shades to want to oppose the Zhents in rather dramatic fashion. I personally don't think there was a reason, but if there was, the attack makes sense.
Of course, regardless of whether or not Shade had reason to attack, Zhentil Keep was destroyed once previously and was rebuilt and strong again in less than a decade. I don't see any reason why this didn't happen a second time. Their history in Shadowdale proves the Zhents aren't the type to give up after even repeated and very serious setbacks. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 21:02:46
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I guess after awhile you just give up (although living on a recently-devastated island, and seeing folks rebuilding for the umpteenth time, I have to admit people are pretty darn stupid/dedicated to their locales).
As for the logic of why they went after the Zhents, I am thinking two (major) things. First, someone probably 'messed with' them first (in other words, they caught some Zhents doing Zhent-stuff to THEM). I can see Manshoon - with all his hubris - taking on a prince or two of Shade, and then Telemont annihilating him and the city he came from.
The second thing is less tangible, and its based on stuff in the RotAW series and some recent discussion in Ed's thread: The Shades promised (the dragons) to go after the Cult of the Dragon (which they were doing). Ed has mentioned that there are some connections between the two groups, and such is also alluded to in RotAW series as well (some Zhent BBG's were discussing their 'infiltrators' in both the CotD and the Red Wizards). What if Telemont (and the Shades) discovered multiple connections and decided by going after the Zhents they were also going after the CotD? Ed mentioned (again, recently) that Manshoon specialized in dragon-related magics, and the Shades had a mutual-protection arrangement with the Dracolich King. Manshoon (and the Zhents) may have been viewed as a threat to their allies, regardless of the CotD connections. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 21:04:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 22:30:22
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That strikes me as really, really reaching. There are better ways to go after an organization than going after one person with connections to it.
Plus, the Cult is still going strong in the 4E era. If Shade was working all that hard toward their eradication, they've failed miserably. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 23:37:48
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Well, if there is one thing we've learned about Shade, its that they aren't really very punctual about anything, and they don't finish anything they start. Hell, it took them over a millenia and a half to find their way home!
Hmmmmmmm... me thinks Sage is Netherese.....
Either that, or they have the worst case of ADD I've ever encountered. "Lets wipeout the Phaerimm... wait! Lets wipe out Evereska and Cormyr! Wait! Lets kill the Cult of the Dragon...NO... the Zhents! Better yet... lets take over Sembia! No, wait!!! I've got another idea... SQUIRREL!!!" (ad infinitum)
Then they sit around for 1600+ years arguing about what to do and how to do it. Sounds like Congress.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 23:40:57 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 12:00:25
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| A simple design move, believe my words, everything 4e cooked up in defense of the strike against the Keep and the Zhent not hitting back, which they can, doesn“t convince me. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 14:53:52
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Oh... we know full well what it was (and when lore is that meta-gaming obvious that should be some clue to how bad it is).
I was just trying to figure out some decent logic for why things went the way they did. Its fairly obvious they weren't trying to obliterate the Zhents, since they left all their other strongholds intact (and the Zhents have plenty of those, all over Faerūn). Ergo, the reasoning has to be they just wanted to hurt them, and hit them where it would hurt the most. Either that, or after destroying Zhentil Keep, something else stepped-in and stopped them, which seems far more unlikely (since they've been portrayed as so friggin' uber).
Possibly the Phaerimm, or that city of beholders (that makes the most sense, if you were going the 'saviors' route) since Zhents get along with beholders. It could have been an army of Manshoon clones for all we know, that would be REALLY hokey (I never cared for the 'clone wars' lore myself). Anyhow, anyone 'saving the Zhents' (even other Zhents) seems highly unlikely, which is why I don't think the Shades were really trying to wipe them off the face of Toril (because in the past, the Netherese were VERY single-minded and efficient about such genocides). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 03:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess they never bother to look south. Realistically, they probably just didn't want to get that close to Evereska again. They also wanted to cripple the Zhentarim, but didn't want to invest a monumental amount of time and resources hunting every last one of them down. Or it could just be they were annoyed by the cross-desert route, and just want to put an end to that
No idea about 4e, but as it was before - Shades searched for Netherese legacy. In this area, it would inevitably make Shades discover the existence of Sshamath. Conversely, the local fun folk would hear about Shades sniffing out old caches and stashes, and distrust them (even more than usual, that is). After which any campaign against Darkhold should be seen in a very different light - bluish and clingy.
Spanking incompetent Zhents where they are already surrounded by old enemies is one thing, but threatening the main road of a big drow magocracy that already became flinchy looks like something waiting to turn into very unhealthy mess. Even in the best case, they quite obviously will come up with some toys good against Shades, and then simply won't stop production as long as anyone on the continent wants to buy any.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to defend any aspect of the 4E Realms, if dramatically limiting Zhent activity was the goal, going for the Keep instead of Darkhold makes more sense. Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven are Zhentish strongholds, but Zhentil Keep was the spiritual, economical, and political center of Zhent activity.
And geographically. Cutting out the center leaves both other bases hanging on their own. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 14:26:40
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Another interesting way to spin it would that the Shades were allied with Darkhold. Its no small secret that the eastern and western branches hated each other.
With the northern city defunct, and the cross-desert trade route no longer supported, the main flow of (illicit) goods would be across the marches and past Darkhold.
This could have been Semmenon's greatest victory over Manshoon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Dec 2012 14:27:35 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 18:05:51
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Manshoon was not running the Zhents anymore like he used to and Semmenon left the Zhents and is on the run. Fzoul was the man leading the network and the strike against the Keep and the justification for the Church of Bane not retaliating which is even dictated by their dogma is shady, yes pun intended, at best. The alliances the Network had are too much of a obstacle for the Shades to pull off, you brought up the beholder and they are not the only ones who benefitted from their deals with the Zhentarim.
The only "sense" for the move was to have their eastern flank secure, hence why they destroyed the Citadel and the Keep, no other settlements were taken out by the Shades from my knowledge, not even Phlan who we all know is usually a traget for such cases. Still i do not buy the design push, it was a bad made move to style the Shades as the new baddies of 4e.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 16:13:44
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| Pretty-much AGREED. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Darkhold - Castles
