| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 02:42:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Yes you're right of course, I was considering Szass pre-the garbage written for the Spellplague transition to 4th edition.
I know many are still rattled about the changes to 4e, but we really don't need commentary like this. Please try to keep it more respective of the work involved. While you may not agree with the many changes, the 4e Realms is still indicative of the grand effort of designers and writers to ensure a fresh perspective on the world.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 04:31:14
|
| Hmmm, perhaps my impression of Mystra is not properly informed - I admit that I've become largely disinterested in post-3E canon and thus haven't followed it in detail. So, is the "informed" consensus that Mystra's morals are essentially neutral or ambiguous while her primary focus remains solely on maintaining magic? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 05:17:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmmm, perhaps my impression of Mystra is not properly informed - I admit that I've become largely disinterested in post-3E canon and thus haven't followed it in detail. So, is the "informed" consensus that Mystra's morals are essentially neutral or ambiguous while her primary focus remains solely on maintaining magic?
That's been her status since late 2E: in matters arcane, she's neutral. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 06:22:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmmm, perhaps my impression of Mystra is not properly informed - I admit that I've become largely disinterested in post-3E canon and thus haven't followed it in detail. So, is the "informed" consensus that Mystra's morals are essentially neutral or ambiguous while her primary focus remains solely on maintaining magic?
I believe you know a lot about Larloch, right? So you know about his "special relationship" with Mystra, despite his evil alignment [as per Ed]. That alone is clue enough that Mystra doesn't care if the one who furthers the Art is evil or good. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 08:23:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmmm, perhaps my impression of Mystra is not properly informed - I admit that I've become largely disinterested in post-3E canon and thus haven't followed it in detail. So, is the "informed" consensus that Mystra's morals are essentially neutral or ambiguous while her primary focus remains solely on maintaining magic?
That's been her status since late 2E: in matters arcane, she's neutral.
Which is why we have Meleghost Starseer, the lawful evil head of Mystra's temple in Waterdeep.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 13:13:54
|
| Ayrik, Mystra's outlook as it crosses with human concerns is about magic and its possibilities, connections and responsibility; likewise that of her clergy. She's good to the extent that the Weave's health goes with Toril's, she doesn't share and sometimes opposes the malice of the 'priesthoods that are violent', Midnight's personal 'pilot intelligence' is inclined that way. But her servants don't act to promote good like those of Lathander or Tymora do or line up against the 'threats' in Faerūn of messageboard lore; her goals are long and strange and often seem unintelligible or harmful to individual mortals; she isn't viewed chiefly in ethical terms, so that many evil mages worship her (probably most, though not all as most favoured god), she supports them in turn, and no one is surprised she has a significant minority of evil priests and other servitors. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 13:46:34
|
Was the last Mystra more chaotic than neutral, or more neutral than chaotic? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:32:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Was the last Mystra more chaotic than neutral, or more neutral than chaotic?
She's never really been chaotic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:40:28
|
I must have misunderstood Ed's rather elaborate reply. Now, I really have to look for that post...
I usually compile Ed's replies to my queries [with dates], specially about Netheril, the Shades, Mystra, and the Chosen. But for some reason I forgot that one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 15:15:03
|
quote:
I know many are still rattled about the changes to 4e, but we really don't need commentary like this. Please try to keep it more respective of the work involved. While you may not agree with the many changes, the 4e Realms is still indicative of the grand effort of designers and writers to ensure a fresh perspective on the world.
You're the moderator. Apologies; I hated that series/lore and to me it's just not good. If I'm not allowed to hold/voice that opinion when relevant, I guess like many others have done I'll have to take my leave.
On point, in Red Magic, Szass Tam worked with Harpers to thwart a takeover of Thay and was benevolent to them rather than evil. In The Simbul's Gift he was hardly as sadistic as Aznar Thrul or some of the other Zulkirs. To me, in pre-transition-to-SpellPlague lore combined with his being the most accomplished of the Red Wizards made him a good candidate for a Chosen of the goddess of Magic (as much so as Halaster or Netherese Arch Wizard or Sammaster). And the changes for the transition to 4th Edition realms threw all that away.
I still would love more lore on Hesperdan. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 15:31:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
On point, in Red Magic, Szass Tam worked with Harpers to thwart a takeover of Thay and was benevolent to them rather than evil. In The Simbul's Gift he was hardly as sadistic as Aznar Thrul or some of the other Zulkirs. To me, in pre-transition-to-SpellPlague lore combined with his being the most accomplished of the Red Wizards made him a good candidate for a Chosen of the goddess of Magic (as much so as Halaster or Netherese Arch Wizard or Sammaster). And the changes for the transition to 4th Edition realms threw all that away.
It's possible that Szass Tam's plan to annihilate the world and ascend as the one and only god existed long before Richard wrote the HL trilogy. Which means that even before the SP, Szass Tam could never be a Chosen of Mystra, as his goals simply contradicted hers. Unless, of course, he could convince or indirectly make her believe that all he wanted in the end was to be a god, not to kill all the gods, [including her]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 16:13:38
|
Mystryl and Mystra-1 were Lawful Neutral, which can essentially be considered her "base" state for eons. However, Mystra-2 was Neutral Good by stats in Forgotten Realms Adventures, the main FR guidebook for 2nd edition; this was supported by her behavior immediately following the Time of Troubles.
Yes, Mystra-2 did eventually "resolve" her mortal-influence problem and distanced herself from Kelemvor. One might say that her base deific nature somewhat re-asserted itself over the mortal influence of Midnight. BUT she was still listed as Neutral Good in the 3rd edition FR campaign setting.
So when people say that her good alignment was a "misconception", how is that reconciled with her alignment as stated in 2E and 3E sourcebooks?
I'm not arguing for a NG Mystra, by the way; it's just there, printed clearly in black and white. Personally, I preferred the old LN Mystryl over the other Mystras. But honestly, it's canon that she was Neutral Good for a lengthy period. Whether that was adequately reflected in novels is another question entirely.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 27 Sep 2011 16:17:59 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 16:51:57
|
| We're not saying her NG alignment is a misconception; it's just potentially misleading if one was to jump to the unfounded conclusion that she's an activist militant goodie who would never, say, have an evil Chosen. Each of the alignments in D&D's simple nine-square grid encompasses a wide range of natures and behaviours, from moderate tendencies to fanaticism to other possibilities (especially where it comes to non-humans) the system doesn't measure very well. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 17:03:34
|
Finally found it:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
Ed is back home from Paizocon, which he VERY much enjoyed, and back "on the job." When he received my latest e-mail of posts in this forum, he came right back with a reply to Dennis, re. this: "Hi, Ed! Is there a Phaerimm Chosen of Mystra? Given that Mystra is neutral in her treatment to magic-users, does she have a Chosen who is of evil alignment?"
Ed replies:
To your first query: NDA. To your second: she has had many. Including some familiar-to-many Realms characters that "no one yet knows" (except, in some cases, WotC staffers or TSR ex-staffers who read my 1986 Realms turnovers or players in my "home" Realms campaign) are Chosen.
And to you and Arcanus: be careful in all assumptions re. the alignment of deities. Not only can alignments shift over time, the notion of alignments applies poorly to many deities - - because divine beings can be partially beyond the comprehension of mortals (who are, after all, almost always sharply limited in what they really know about a god or goddess).
Eldacar's recent post is "right on" regarding Mystra's evil Chosen, and their hoarding-magic "human nature" tendencies, which if followed place them in direct opposition to Mystra's main aim (of spreading magic to everyone, and making magic ever-greater and in ever-greater use).
[snip]
love to all,
THO
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 17:13:11
|
Had Mystra recruited a devil or demon as Chosen? If not, would she? Or does she think it highly impractical, as it's a devil/demon's nature to betray his master at every given opportunity? But then again, humans can be worse than demons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Sep 2011 17:44:22 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 17:19:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
We're not saying her NG alignment is a misconception; it's just potentially misleading if one was to jump to the unfounded conclusion that she's an activist militant goodie who would never, say, have an evil Chosen. Each of the alignments in D&D's simple nine-square grid encompasses a wide range of natures and behaviours, from moderate tendencies to fanaticism to other possibilities (especially where it comes to non-humans) the system doesn't measure very well.
I agree with you, it's not simple. She has selected evil Chosen, and will again, I'm sure.
But Wooly has repeatedly stated that her good alignment was only a misconception and only minor plot-point in one short novel. That just doesn't jive with the fact that she's been listed as neutral good alignment throughout 2E and 3E, and stated as such in those sourcebooks. So it's not a misconception that she's NG, because she's definitely listed that way - and has been through two editions.
That said, I agree that alignment is not a terrific measure and it's problematic as a determiner. Mystra, as a NG, would still select evil Chosen if it suited her overall purposes. Too often, I think, alignment puts PCs, NPCs and other statted-out characters (including the gods) into a straight-jacket. And that's unfortunate, because motivations and intentions should be very complex, especially for a god. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 18:47:49
|
| It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 18:54:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
I know many are still rattled about the changes to 4e, but we really don't need commentary like this. Please try to keep it more respective of the work involved. While you may not agree with the many changes, the 4e Realms is still indicative of the grand effort of designers and writers to ensure a fresh perspective on the world.
You're the moderator. Apologies; I hated that series/lore and to me it's just not good. If I'm not allowed to hold/voice that opinion when relevant, I guess like many others have done I'll have to take my leave.
No one has stated you can't put forth a negative opinion. Indeed, I myself have more than once come under fire for not liking the 4E Realms. I'm also no fan of the 4E ruleset, and I've also stated that while I love Ed's lore and worldbuilding, I don't really care for most of his FR fiction.
We're just asking that any opinions -- no matter what they're on -- be stated a little more respectfully than calling something garbage. There's quite a difference between "this is utter garbage!" and "I find this illogical and in defiance of prior canon". |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:02:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
What novel? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:22:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
That's the problem, though. Misconception is the wrong term. She's NG in sourcebooks, and she was portrayed as good in that novel. Since then, we haven't seen her balanced approach in action. So to say that it's a misconception or misperception isn't really fair to people who are reading the sourcebooks when there isn't much evidence to support her definite return to the old LN attitude re: magic.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's unfair to tell people they're having a misconception when the sourcebooks strongly suggest otherwise. Misprint, or the lack of 3E errata, is more appropriate and doesn't blame the reader for some kind of personal misunderstanding on their part.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 27 Sep 2011 19:25:17 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:40:26
|
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:05:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a misconception because her good alignment has only been a factor in her stewardship of magic in that one novel. Yes, she's good. But she is neutral with regards to magic... How she feels is not always the same as how she acts. It's like being in customer service: you're smiling and polite to your customers, but you're really wanting to throw large, heavy objects at them.
That's the problem, though. Misconception is the wrong term. She's NG in sourcebooks, and she was portrayed as good in that novel. Since then, we haven't seen her balanced approach in action. So to say that it's a misconception or misperception isn't really fair to people who are reading the sourcebooks when there isn't much evidence to support her definite return to the old LN attitude re: magic.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's unfair to tell people they're having a misconception when the sourcebooks strongly suggest otherwise. Misprint, or the lack of 3E errata, is more appropriate and doesn't blame the reader for some kind of personal misunderstanding on their part.
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:31:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
OT time. I don't want to post this as another thread, 'cause I think it doesn't need an in-depth discussion... Do the greater gods have the power to prevent lesser deities from hearing their faithful's prayers? Does Ao allow such anomaly?
I'd be surprised if they could. Mystra has the power to do so (she did it on Cyric) by cutting him off from the Weave, but she has been forbidden to do so again on anyone. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 20:54:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:24:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
I'm wondering if you're understanding the point I'm making: Mystra's alignment has never had an in-game effect. Never. Her favoring good spellslingers and hampering evil ones was a plot point in a book, and was never reflected in any sourcebook. With regards to how she deals with magic, in terms of the rules, Mystra has always been neutral.
So, with regards to the setting, Mystra's good alignment has never been a factor. Saying it has been is a misperception, because it's ignoring the fact that it's never even been paid attention to outside of a single novel.
Besides, people misperceive what's in the rulebooks all the time -- just look at how poorly some people understand alignment in general. A lot of people think CN means be evil one day and good the next, and a lot of people think CE = murdering psychopath. It's explicitly stated otherwise in alignment descriptions, but that misperception remains. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Sep 2011 21:27:00 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:48:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is it strongly suggested that Mystra's alignment had any effect on her stewardship of magic? In what sourcebook is it even implied?
Are you even trying to understand my point, or is it more important to "win" an argument?
You and I both know Ed's views on the gods and their alignments, and about alignment issues generally. But it's a little disingenuous to tell people less familiar with those intricacies that it's their problem when the sourcebooks clearly have strong implications.
I'm wondering if you're understanding the point I'm making: Mystra's alignment has never had an in-game effect. Never. Her favoring good spellslingers and hampering evil ones was a plot point in a book, and was never reflected in any sourcebook. With regards to how she deals with magic, in terms of the rules, Mystra has always been neutral.
So, with regards to the setting, Mystra's good alignment has never been a factor. Saying it has been is a misperception, because it's ignoring the fact that it's never even been paid attention to outside of a single novel.
Besides, people misperceive what's in the rulebooks all the time -- just look at how poorly some people understand alignment in general. A lot of people think CN means be evil one day and good the next, and a lot of people think CE = murdering psychopath. It's explicitly stated otherwise in alignment descriptions, but that misperception remains.
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:19:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 23:10:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me.
Hey, you're totally allowed to hold on to a rigid and inflexible perspective. Just trying to point out that maybe that attitude doesn't serve you very well.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 23:31:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dude. I understand everything you're saying. However, I'm trying to point out that you're breaking "Wil Wheaton Rule #1" because you're so freaking stubborn about this.
Anyone, anywhere, with anything, can misperceive just about anything. But this is in print, which pushes people toward conclusions, so give people a little freaking slack.
Not familiar with that rule.
I've seen the same stuff in print, and I was not pushed towards those conclusions. No in-game effect has ever been mentioned, so how people could conclude that something offstage is a problem is beyond me.
Hey, you're totally allowed to hold on to a rigid and inflexible perspective. Just trying to point out that maybe that attitude doesn't serve you very well.
So it's rigid and inflexible to think that if there is nothing in print that even implies that something is the case, then there's no reason to assume it is? If that's rigid and inflexible, then I'd hate to see a definition for defending that which actually is in print...
But either way, I'm out of this discussion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 00:10:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So it's rigid and inflexible to think that if there is nothing in print that even implies that something is the case, then there's no reason to assume it is? If that's rigid and inflexible, then I'd hate to see a definition for defending that which actually is in print...
But either way, I'm out of this discussion.
Did you miss the whole part where I mentioned that Mystra was clearly labeled as neutral good in both 2E and 3E? It's printed, in canon sourcebooks. Alignment gives a general indication of what a PC, NPC, or other character (such as Mystra) is likely to do. Not a perfect one, but it does reflect general tendencies. Being neutral good means she's strongly likely to do good things with respect to her mission/portfolio: magic; the neutrality in "neutral good" relates to the law/chaos axis. You're holding on to the old "lawful neutral" alignment of Mystryl when you think she's neutral with respect to magic.
If such were not the case, then why would Amaunator and Lathander and similar deities who promote goodness be labeled as "good" instead of "neutral"?
So yes, you're being stubborn and inflexible when you suggest that the reader is somehow at fault for misjudging Mystra's alignment in 2E and 3E. They're reading what's in print, and making a natural conclusion. It would be a totally different story if they'd never put "neutral good" for Mystra in both of those editions' sourcebooks and had left it blank, but they didn't.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Evil Chosen of Mystra
