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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 12:39:07
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If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why?
This has the making of an interesting post! My choice would be for Szass Tam. SPOILER: His utter destruction of the zulkirs at the end of the Haunted Lands trilogy clearly shows that his magical ability is on a level that few (good or evil) attain. I just think Tam is awesome anyways! |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:36:51
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I would choose him, too. BUT, his recent undertaking is contrary to Mystra's goals. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I would choose him, too. BUT, his recent undertaking is contrary to Mystra's goals.
Perhaps an evil god/goddess of magic is needed |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:46:42
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Shar kinda acts like it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 17:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Sammaster, of course.
He was a Chosen. It's difficult to give the mantle of a Chosen to someone who wanted to be as powerful as the goddess he's supposed to serve. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 18:40:22
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I wouldn't sully my finely evil characters with Mystra's cheap cheating incompetent taint; that's a prerogative I leave to the authors. Evil wizards are wizards after all, they command their own magic and destinies ... they're not glorified lickspittle priest lapdogs subject to the wispy whims of a goody-two-shoes girly god; if they give Mystra any recognition at all it would be mere lip service through the more active worship of Azuth, Velsharoon, and Kossuth.
The hallmark of evil is concern for oneself without concern for others, for evil wizards clearly the only thing of true consequence is power and respect of those who can command power. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2011 18:48:46 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 21:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wouldn't sully my finely evil characters with Mystra's cheap cheating incompetent taint; that's a prerogative I leave to the authors. Evil wizards are wizards after all, they command their own magic and destinies ... they're not glorified lickspittle priest lapdogs subject to the wispy whims of a goody-two-shoes girly god; if they give Mystra any recognition at all it would be mere lip service through the more active worship of Azuth, Velsharoon, and Kossuth.
The hallmark of evil is concern for oneself without concern for others, for evil wizards clearly the only thing of true consequence is power and respect of those who can command power.
Charming. If you're going to criticise Mystra, perhaps you could do it without using her gender as part of it? Faerun has evil gods. It also has evil goddesses. Same goes for neutral and good.
Using 'girly god' as part of your criticism throws the focus onto her being female - that you coupled it with 'wispy whims' strongly suggests a certain stereotype...
Your post seems to suggest that because Mystra is female, she is a poor excuse for a deity; more, it throws in the stereotype of the weak, 'wispy' woman who is driven only by random impulses.
Especially when one considers that Mystra is a greater deity, Azuth a lesser deity; you mentioned him as a preferred god, while also claiming that evil wizards would respect power more. Mystra has more power; why, then, no respect for her? Because she is female?
I certainly hope such misogynistic undertones were merely the result of your neglecting to consider the customary connotations of the words you chose. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 20 Sep 2011 21:09:04 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 21:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wouldn't sully my finely evil characters with Mystra's cheap cheating incompetent taint; that's a prerogative I leave to the authors. Evil wizards are wizards after all, they command their own magic and destinies ... they're not glorified lickspittle priest lapdogs subject to the wispy whims of a goody-two-shoes girly god; if they give Mystra any recognition at all it would be mere lip service through the more active worship of Azuth, Velsharoon, and Kossuth.
The hallmark of evil is concern for oneself without concern for others, for evil wizards clearly the only thing of true consequence is power and respect of those who can command power.
Charming. If you're going to criticise Mystra, perhaps you could do it without using her gender as part of it? Faerun has evil gods. It also has evil goddesses. Same goes for neutral and good.
Using 'girly god' as part of your criticism throws the focus onto her being female - that you coupled it with 'wispy whims' strongly suggests a certain stereotype...
Your post seems to suggest that because Mystra is female, she is a poor excuse for a deity; more, it throws in the stereotype of the weak, 'wispy' woman who is driven only by random impulses.
Especially when one considers that Mystra is a greater deity, Azuth a lesser deity; you mentioned him as a preferred god, while also claiming that evil wizards would respect power more. Mystra has more power; why, then, no respect for her? Because she is female?
I certainly hope such misogynistic undertones were merely the result of your neglecting to consider the customary connotations of the words you chose.
Ayrik's been mad at lady gods ever since one of Sune's priestesses punched him in the himminy-jimminies.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 21:18:43
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| now THAT was funny |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 21:38:32
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I would say that Hesperdan has the potential to be
an evil Chosen, but we have seen so few of his abilities
that this is just pure speculation. Just from what Ed
has said about how he compares to the other titans of
magic leaves me to believe this. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 21:51:21
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| After having read El Must Die, and now in the middle of Bury El Deep, I'm inclined to think that of all the evil wizards, Manshoony should be the one to take the title of "Evil Chosen" of Mystra. And I'm wondering if she's really as "goody-two-shoes" as Ayrik there seems to think. after all, she has been telling Elminster to recruit the War Wizards into her service- and those guys are far from "goody-goody". |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:48:56
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Misogynistic accusations are fair enough, given my above wording, although to be honest I personally think of myself as more of a cynical misanthrope. I was attempting to convey language which would underscore the perspective of evil wizards (since, to my mind, they'd be a misogynistic lot), though yea, insulting Mystra's gender was an unnecessary and careless mistake and there have been plenty of characters (and gods) in the Realms who have demonstrated extreme competence or incompetence regardless of their genders. I apologize if I offended, although sorry, my evil wizard NPCs still won't be changing their ignorantly chauvinistic ways.
Insofar as arguments about power, it's not about who's got the bigger god. It's about the fact that wizards directly command power that is (at least in their own opinions) utterly independant of the gods; they control their own limits rather than being trickled conditional power through some powerful parasitic middleman.
If/When evil wizards are forced to recognize Mystra's governance over their power they would likely interact through a "lesser" and probably evil god. Why? Because Mystra's good alignment imposes some inconvenient rules they'd rather not waste time obeying (no torture, murder, sacrifice, betrayal?), while somebody like Kossuth is probably rather easily appeased (and thus more inclined to bestow power) by the evil wizard's intended application. Only fools would utterly ignore a being of such power as Mystra, of course, but the less foolish would still probably circumvent her attention as much as possible by interacting through whatever evil shortcuts are made available.
I assume that being Chosen is a mutual agreement? Or can Mystra (or any other deity) simply impose her divine will upon any mortal individual as she sees fit? What if the mortal quite simply refuses or rejects the god? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2011 22:54:20 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:54:19
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True enough. If they weren't so keen on breaking rules, they wouldn't be evil!   
Well, if they did refuse (she never forces them, AFAIK) then they wouldn't be a Chosen. for the power she gives, I'd think there are plenty of evil wizards who would like to be a Chosen. They tried hard enough to learn the secret of Spellfire, after all.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 20 Sep 2011 22:56:57 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:04:07
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And that might be why I prefer pragmatic evil. Pragmatically evil villains won't discriminate between the sexes in their ranks unless there is a genuine advantage to it.
Female wizards can run the gamut of good and evil the same way the male ones can.
Stupid Evil characters might discriminate, but... well, wizards. As in, key stat is INT. You'd think they'd be bright enough to realise that it hardly matters whether your apprentice has dangly bits or not, compared to how devoted they are to the cause, and their magical potential.
When push comes to shove, and your conclave of evil is going toe-to-toe with the good guys, are you going to want a male wizard beside you just because of the contents of his pants? Or are you going to want strong allies, no matter which sex they come from?
Honestly, it strikes me as a rather tired old trope: if you want the bad guys to be bad, apparently they have to kick puppies and think girls have cooties. A practical, coldly efficient villain is in my opinion far scarier; he or she is not going to waste energy on the petty things, and as a consequence has all of that cold focus to direct toward getting power. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:27:45
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It is indeed tired old cliché. Exactly as much as trying to establish good guys are good by dedicating some screen time to showing them befriend animals and small children, not to necessarily further the story/plot in any way, only to assert how good the characters must be. Populations have become sophisticated enough to move beyond the dissatisfyingly predictable square-chin noble heroes into antiheroes and protoganists of rather darker nature. Yet villains have, largely, been stuck in their melodramatic rut forever, still twirling their moustached monologues and laughing their diabolical laughs.
So what is high fantasy if not a mountain of old tropes? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2011 23:31:26 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It is indeed tired old cliché. Exactly as much as trying to establish good guys are good by dedicating some screen time to showing them befriend animals and small children, not to necessarily further the story/plot in any way, only to assert how good the characters must be. Populations have become sophisticated enough to move beyond the dissatisfyingly predictable square-chin noble heroes into antiheroes and protoganists of rather darker nature. Yet villains have, largely, been stuck in their melodramatic rut forever, still twirling their moustached monologues and laughing their diabolical laughs.
So what is high fantasy if not a mountain of old trope?
It's a genre, and genres get updated. Certain things were once more acceptable, and now are not. Conversely, some things are now more acceptable than they were. (See Ed Greenwood's frequent comments about how the bad guys once upon a time weren't allowed to win anything, leading to their looking strangely ineffective because they lost in every book, even in the early books of trilogies, where an eventual loss was deemed not enough. Now? The bad guys can triumph to a far greater degree.)
-4 STR meme has been out of date for a while... |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Female wizards can run the gamut of good and evil the same way the male ones can.
Sometimes they are more ruthless than the males. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 02:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
True enough. If they weren't so keen on breaking rules, they wouldn't be evil!
It is the main reason Mystra [as Ed noted] tends to recruit goodly or chaotic ones than evil wizards. The less likely they break the rules and go about pursuing their selfish goals, the more likely they could serve her better. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 02:22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Female wizards can run the gamut of good and evil the same way the male ones can.
Sometimes they are more ruthless than the males.
Without descending into the corrosive mire of Political Correctness, female opponents are far more dangerous than male ones, evil or not. My players have come to worry when facing any woman that they are sure is more than just an 'extra'. I plead guilty to the charges that have often been leveled at me of being an exceedingly cruel DM, even if I am not running a death-dungeon.
One of my biggest real-life heroes is a lady, one that I would be very, very worried if she were angry with me, even though she is in her mid-80's.
To the topic: I would choose Halaster Blackcloak. To me, he is the anti-Elminster (although I have no issues with Elminster, just to be perfectly clear), and has already dealt with Mystra one-on-one. It just seems...appropriate.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 21 Sep 2011 02:27:31 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 04:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why?
Larloch,assuming he actually is evil. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 05:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why?
Larloch,assuming he actually is evil.
I don't see Larloch being limited to the role of a Chosen. Some of Ed's replies on the subject would seem to suggest that Larloch is somewhat beyond the powers and perceptions of Mystra's Chosen. Look to the bits from Ed posted in this scroll over the years. A few of Larloch's plots are "so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are." This could imply that Larloch simply occupies a "special position" that is all his own -- and not something that can be easily categorised. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 05:29:54
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It should be noted that Mystra (that is, old LN Mystra) was indifferent about the alignment of her Magisters, at least in 1E and early 2E descriptions. What mattered was their competence in magic, and their inclination to propagate a lot of magic as often as possible ... evil Magisters served this purpose just as well as good ones.
I don't see any particular requirement for Mystra's Chosen to be non-evil in alignment; I suspect the reason they are is because Chosen were only given official definition and stats (and history) later on, after NG Midnight/Mystra had already been installed, and the game rules had already established that one cannot actively solicit the favour of a deity with opposing alignment. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Sep 2011 05:32:45 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 08:20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't see any particular requirement for Mystra's Chosen to be non-evil in alignment; I suspect the reason they are is because Chosen were only given official definition and stats (and history) later on, after NG Midnight/Mystra had already been installed, and the game rules had already established that one cannot actively solicit the favour of a deity with opposing alignment.
There isn't any rule against having an evil Chosen of Mystra. However, Ed's replies have stated that while Mystra has had evil Chosen in the past, they almost invariably fell into the category of "hoard magic to themselves" in the end, contrary to their job description ("spread magic"). I believe (paraphrasing slightly) he described it thus:
"Nay, Lady Mystra, the people aren't yet ready for this bit of magic! I'll guard it for a while longer until they're prepared for it!"
"That's what you said six years ago, when will they be ready!?"
Or something to that effect. I'm sure somebody can dig up his exact words. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 09:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If you were to choose an evil Chosen of Mystra, who would it be? And most importantly, why?
Larloch,assuming he actually is evil.
I don't see Larloch being limited to the role of a Chosen. Some of Ed's replies on the subject would seem to suggest that Larloch is somewhat beyond the powers and perceptions of Mystra's Chosen. Look to the bits from Ed posted in this scroll over the years. A few of Larloch's plots are "so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are." This could imply that Larloch simply occupies a "special position" that is all his own -- and not something that can be easily categorised.
I'm inclined to agree. Larloch is like a "walking god." To him, Chosen-related tasks may appear shallow and unfulfilling. His plots are as [or maybe more] complicated as the gods'. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 15:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Evil wizards are wizards after all, they command their own magic and destinies ... they're not glorified lickspittle priest lapdogs subject to the wispy whims of a goody-two-shoes girly god; if they give Mystra any recognition at all it would be mere lip service through the more active worship of Azuth, Velsharoon, and Kossuth.
The hallmark of evil is concern for oneself without concern for others, for evil wizards clearly the only thing of true consequence is power and respect of those who can command power.
In Elminster in hell, when halaster saw Mistra face to face, he didn't sound so sure of himself.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
To the topic: I would choose Halaster Blackcloak. To me, he is the anti-Elminster (although I have no issues with Elminster, just to be perfectly clear), and has already dealt with Mystra one-on-one. It just seems...appropriate.
- OMH
I had to agree here, after all, halaster seemsto fit very well with the "spreading magic" attitude than, let's say Manshoon.
Of course he do it his own way, which means mostly, finding new monsters for Undermountain 
More seriously, at the end of Elminster in Hell, many readers thought that Mystra made him a chosen. |
-The black knight is invincible!
- You’re a looney. |
Edited by - glitter on 22 Sep 2011 15:54:12 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:55:28
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I have never had the impression, looking through
the Undermountain modules and his character bios
in other assorted game products that he spreads
magic for the reason to spread magic. I have allways
had the attitude that what he sprinkles around
Undermountain is bait! to lure in the adventurer
for his twisted entertainment.
But at the end of Stardock, one of the rewards for saving
him is the chance to apprentice somebody. I don't know
what to think about him.
Does the Joker take his underlings and teach them how to
be murderous clowns? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 01:17:30
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Maybe at some point he was. But when Mystra realized she could not heal his insanity, she just left him alone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Evil Chosen of Mystra
