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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 20:11:53
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So I'm trying to figure out how to give spellbooks the same kind of flavor that they used to have in 1E-3E, and I'm having a little trouble.
Some of the single best moments as a wizard PC used to be:
- finding a new spell scroll in a pile of treasure, and incorporating it into your repertoire.
- killing a mage enemy and adding their books of spells to your own.
- creating a new spell after research and study.
- finding the grimoire of a historical mage and adding their spells to your own.
- gaining access to certain old tomes that would give you a mystical benefit of some kind.
Of course, I'm aware of rituals in 4E, and having a PC find a ritual page (or even a tome of rituals) seems like a good answer to part of the above. Still, if a player finds a ready-to-go 4E ritual page, it's likely not to be all that old (less than 100 years, yes?).
So how about truly old spellbooks found in ruins, or ideas for the others:
- suppose you (as a PC) find a sealed, ancient scroll, or an old spellbook from the 1E-3E era. How would/could this be used? Are most old spells "translatable" into rituals, or perhaps even "new" (or alternate) spell options?
- how much work (for the PC) should be involved in turning an old spell into a new era ritual? So they could use the new spell as a "swap out" for some current spell they know, for example.
- in researching novel, brand new spells, are there any rules/costs that have been developed for this?
- how have you or your DMs handled old spellbooks?
- please bear in mind, I'm NOT wanting this to go all edition warry. Magic has "changed" before, in some ways, in that old Mystryl-era magic wasn't always instantly translatable to 1E-3E spells. My only interest here is that I want to find interesting ways of making old crumbling tomes somehow useful to PCs in 4E, and I'm looking for ideas beyond my own.
- I do want to bring that old glimmer back to the eyes of my wizard players, after they dig up some ancient, priceless mage tome that they can pore over for weeks and add to their Art.
Thanks! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Sep 2011 20:22:12
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4448 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:07:04
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In my 4E Realms games, I allow my wizard to add all her spells (save the At-will Powers) to their spellbooks. This gives them lots upon lots of options during an extended rest. There really isn't anything wrong with this and it's not opposed by the rules. In fact, Mages (Essentials wizard) adds Encounter powers to their spellbooks also.
So when my wife's eladrin (sun elf) Mage levels up she'll gain her normal allotment but if she finds a scroll, book, or some such thing that gives her a spell of X level, she can store it in her spellbook for use later. However, I'd never giver her a spell she couldn't use or if I did, she couldn't use it (even on a 1-shot attack) until the appropriate level.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
- suppose you (as a PC) find a sealed, ancient scroll, or an old spellbook from the 1E-3E era. How would/could this be used? Are most old spells "translatable" into rituals, or perhaps even "new" (or alternate) spell options?
I actually was helping another Poseter on the Wizbro boards about converting 3e spells into 4E spells. The thread was called Forgotten Realms Spells and it worked out fairly well. The poster Aegeri was very critical of our work (which was a good thing) and helped to maintain some of the balance of the spells we re-invented.
Basically, I theorized that to convert 3e to 4e spells, you'd have to look at the description, what it does and it's level. Basically spells in 3E fall into 3 categories (low-mid-high). Low spells are from 1st thru 3rd. Mid spells are 4th thru 6th and High are 7th thru 9th. So this converts to 4E like this Low = 1-10 lvl. Mid 11-20. High 21-30. Of course, this is a very rough estimation and you're going to want to throw some balance in the way of dice being used and area effects and of course the targets of the spell so use offiial spells of the targeted level and differ a bit from there.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
- how much work (for the PC) should be involved in turning an old spell into a new era ritual? So they could use the new spell as a "swap out" for some current spell they know, for example.
I wouldn't make them swap it out at all. From above, I just let them add it to their spellbook, though they can only prep so many per day of course. You could make them do an Arcana check DC = 20 + Spell level or just simplify it to the Medium DC listed in the DMG.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
- in researching novel, brand new spells, are there any rules/costs that have been developed for this?
No, sadly there hasn't been. But as a community project, we can do a good job to come up with one .
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
- please bear in mind, I'm NOT wanting this to go all edition warry. Magic has "changed" before, in some ways, in that old Mystryl-era magic wasn't always instantly translatable to 1E-3E spells. My only interest here is that I want to find interesting ways of making old crumbling tomes somehow useful to PCs in 4E, and I'm looking for ideas beyond my own.
- I do want to bring that old glimmer back to the eyes of my wizard players, after they dig up some ancient, priceless mage tome that they can pore over for weeks and add to their Art.
Thanks!
Hopefully some of this has helped. Spellbooks really took a backseat in 4E but that doesn't need to be the case. Remember that wizards still need them for all their Daily and Utiliy (and in certain cases Encounter) spells so they're vital to a wizard's continuing progress. And when in doubt, use a 3E rule as it's vague enough with 4E. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:12:18
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You could rule that wizards can only *research* certain spells by themselves when going up a level, and in order to get really cool ones, they have to find them from enemy spellcasters. For instance, your wizard might only be able to take D&D Essentials spells normally, but if he wants an Arcane Power spell, it requires taking it from a foe (or a sidequest to find a teacher).
You can also allow players to tweak existing spells through spell research. Maybe your hero wants an acid ball instead of a fireball--spend some resources on it and you now have a fireball that deals acid damage instead. Be careful with this, as breaking the mechanics too much can unbalance your game.
Might I also suggest a new feat . . .?
Spell Creator
Choose one encounter or daily spell per tier (i.e. levels 1-10, 1 spell; levels 11-20, 2 spells; levels 21-30, 3 spells). You create a spell similar to that spell but unique to you. You may alter one of that spell's damage types to any other damage type (you cannot pick non-typed) and pick a different non-AC defense to target (you cannot change a spell that targets AC). These choices cannot be reversed once made unless you retrain the spell or lose the Spell Creator feat.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Might I also suggest a new feat . . .?
Spell Creator
Choose one encounter or daily spell per tier (i.e. levels 1-10, 1 spell; levels 11-20, 2 spells; levels 21-30, 3 spells). You create a spell similar to that spell but unique to you. You may alter one of that spell's damage types to any other damage type (you cannot pick non-typed) and pick a different non-AC defense to target (you cannot change a spell that targets AC). These choices cannot be reversed once made unless you retrain the spell or lose the Spell Creator feat.
Cheers
Question here:
Let's say you alter a fireball into an acid ball (as suggested), thus making ('expending') the alteration for that tier. Would the feat then allow for you to then again take the original fireball spell and create, say, a frost ball, or would it have been 'expended' for that tier, with no further same-tier tweaks possible? And naturally, the question is, how many spells per tier would you say the feat allows? |
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Troll King III
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Spell Creator
Choose one encounter or daily spell per tier (i.e. levels 1-10, 1 spell; levels 11-20, 2 spells; levels 21-30, 3 spells). You create a spell similar to that spell but unique to you. You may alter one of that spell's damage types to any other damage type (you cannot pick non-typed) and pick a different non-AC defense to target (you cannot change a spell that targets AC). These choices cannot be reversed once made unless you retrain the spell or lose the Spell Creator feat.
Cheers
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Is 50 clone accounts overkill? |
Edited by - Troll King III on 09 Sep 2011 21:41:34 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 00:11:47
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Diffan, Erik, & Harpell -
Exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to get going!
Definitely I want to keep the power levels appropriate for any translated spells. Increasing the variety of spells, and "recovering" old spells from legend, that's my main goal. I think current wizard players would love that, and it'd bring back a lot of the flavor magic that seemed to be washed out a bit during the development of balanced classes.
By "swap out" I just meant memorizing a different spell from your spellbook, not actually deleting one in favor of another. I really want to let a wizard PC collect all sorts of useable spells, then change their current memorized repertoire during a rest period as you said.
I was reading one of those old "Pages from the Mages" articles in Dragon, where Ed would detail various spellbooks that were either found in ruins, or as treasure, and I think if one of my players found some of those books as treasure they'd really get hooked.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 10:48:16
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Way back when, before TSR/WOTC invented the sorcerer as an alternative to the wizard (back when we all called them 'magic-users'), the DMs in my roundtable of gamers came up with a house rule. Although we had no real name for it, I'll call it 'spell-swapping'.
The theory is, the spells per day is not what you've memorized - it's what your system has learned to withstand during casting, your system's accumulated resistance to magic as you channel the energy, the amount of sleep/rest you've gotten, and so on.
Thus, Necromancer Bob may have memorized his daily allotment of spells when the party comes across Marizog's Compendium of Splendiferous Necrotic Lucidity in the trove of the monster they've just defeated, and Bob sees that he would actually be able to employ some of these delightful perversities right away.
Under the spell-swap rules, he takes a few minutes to concentrate, and removes one of the spells he's memorized from his mind. This does not remove the daily ability to actually cast that spell, however - he has, say, six first-level spells. But now he has effectively only five memorized, with the stored energy capacity of a sixth spell that as yet has no spell assigned to it. So now Bob can memorize one of the new spells he's just gotten his hands on, and cast it immediately after the few minutes it takes to commit the spell to memory.
One of our number actually took it a step closer to sorcerer - you have (again, for example) six spell slots, you can memorize six spells...but after that, if you wanted to cast, say, six burning hands, you could - and could substitute a new spell from the spellbook for any of those six at any time. The number represented both spells per day and the number you could commit to memory. They did not, however, follow a strictly Vancian path, and came rather close to a sorcerer of current editions.
While I would likely allow the first example for a wizard, the second is too close to a sorcerer to be viable any more, in my opinion, unless you are using earlier editions where sorcerers don't exist. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 14:43:51
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There was a 2E version of the wu jen that had an alternate system... I think it was in a Dragon article. That version could only cast spells from specific, element-based lists, and powered the spells with his own hit points. Obviously, the class got more than the regular mage hit points, but I don't recall all of the details. Spellcasting, though, was a 1hp equals 1 spell level system.
The class also had some other abilities that weren't standard to mages, but that was what I remember most clearly. I got to play one for a couple of sessions, but only a couple. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 18:54:58
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Interesting... sorcerers (and some other early caster options) struck me as a way of getting around Vancian magic. Rather like the "power points" of psionics, or the "essaence limits" of spells in Rolemaster. I'm intrigued by the use of hit points being sacrificed for spells, I'll have to go look up the old Wu Jen.
Still, I don't want to get too far away from the new 4E rules. I not familiar enough with them (yet, I guess) to know if certain things might be overpowered. In a lot of ways, though, I wish they had totally ditched Vancian mechanics for something like power points. I've never really liked the whole Vancian "cast a spell and it's erased from your mind!" thing. But maybe they thought it'd get too far away from the roots of D&D.
So I have a 4E question... what spells can a wizard co-opt from an enemy's spellbook? Could a wizard use the spellbook of a swordmage, for example? Clerical-divine magic would be totally out, but what about picking up a spellbook from any arcane caster class? I suspect there are limits, yes?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 10 Sep 2011 18:55:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 00:05:04
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Some of the 2E Player's Options books presented an excellent spell point system which has seen much use in my gaming, even when shifting to the 3E ruleset; they aren't really workable within 4E, at least not without some major overhaul on the rules. Sorcerors have never been popular with me or my players; there's something of an unspoken rule about them never being used as PCs and only sparingly as NPCs, just to keep everybody happy. We see sorcerors as being "cheats", a symptom of power creep and changing perceptions among the gamers of the era ... whether sorcerors are worth keeping around or not is a controversial issue among fans but not at all an issue at our table; nobody likes the concept at all so we've simply avoided giving it any recognition.
Vancian magic systems are flawed, and D&D has always generally treated magic as just another externally-powered tool which can be manipulated (as opposed to a more organic or mystical system), in fact it arguably popularized the entire trope into the mainstream ... but these failings are really just part of the D&D tradition, there are other RPGs available for people more comfortable with non-Vancian expectations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 04:25:17
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| I love sorcerers, myself. It's the perfect solution to the one thing that I've always seen as a huge drawback to D&D spellcasting: trying to plan ahead, not knowing what spells you're going to need during the day. Combat-types never have to choose what specific weapons they're going to use, with nothing else being available until they rest. Rogues never have to plan what abilities they're going to use, with the rest being unavailable... So why do spellslingers have to be psychic? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4448 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 05:55:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So I have a 4E question... what spells can a wizard co-opt from an enemy's spellbook? Could a wizard use the spellbook of a swordmage, for example? Clerical-divine magic would be totally out, but what about picking up a spellbook from any arcane caster class? I suspect there are limits, yes?
Honestly, I'd say that if the Wizard took Multiclass feats for the Swordmage then I'd be OK with them adding Swordmage spells to their spellbook but they'd only be able to "swap" spells as the Multiclass rules suggest. For example a Wizard who take the Swordmage Multiclass feat and Novice Power would only be able to exchange 1 wizard encounter spell for a Swordmage spell BUT they could learn multiple Swordmage spells of that level or lower to be their "One" spell. To me this isn't really an issue of allowing more options but keeping the restriction of what Powers you can prepare and use that stay on Par with the rules.
Though from a mechanical standpoint, if a Wizard wants to take Swordmage powers then they're better off doing one of two things: First is Hybrid Swordmage|Wizard as it's just straight awesome or Second, go Bladesinger and Multiclass Swordmage.
As for 3E sorcerers, my wife really enjoys them, much more than wizards and it's mainly due to preparation of spells before the beginning of the day. To her, it's a bother to have to pick certain spells each and every day instead of just knowing a select few and casting them willy-nilly as is the Sorcerer's M.O. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 18:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So I have a 4E question... what spells can a wizard co-opt from an enemy's spellbook? Could a wizard use the spellbook of a swordmage, for example? Clerical-divine magic would be totally out, but what about picking up a spellbook from any arcane caster class? I suspect there are limits, yes?
Honestly, I'd say that if the Wizard took Multiclass feats for the Swordmage then I'd be OK with them adding Swordmage spells to their spellbook but they'd only be able to "swap" spells as the Multiclass rules suggest. For example a Wizard who take the Swordmage Multiclass feat and Novice Power would only be able to exchange 1 wizard encounter spell for a Swordmage spell BUT they could learn multiple Swordmage spells of that level or lower to be their "One" spell. To me this isn't really an issue of allowing more options but keeping the restriction of what Powers you can prepare and use that stay on Par with the rules.
Though from a mechanical standpoint, if a Wizard wants to take Swordmage powers then they're better off doing one of two things: First is Hybrid Swordmage|Wizard as it's just straight awesome or Second, go Bladesinger and Multiclass Swordmage.
As for 3E sorcerers, my wife really enjoys them, much more than wizards and it's mainly due to preparation of spells before the beginning of the day. To her, it's a bother to have to pick certain spells each and every day instead of just knowing a select few and casting them willy-nilly as is the Sorcerer's M.O.
That, or if the spell shares a descriptor. Using previous editions as an example, say a wizard gets a hold of a wu jen's spellbook, and the spell has the descriptor 'Wood', instead of, say, 'Illusion'. The wizard currently has no concept of 'wood' spells, as that is an entirely Kara-Turan spell classification, so our wizard may have some trouble with it. Not to say it's impossible...just difficult, and that's assuming he knows Kara-Turan script and so forth.
Now if the spell has a descriptor, of, say, 'Evocation, Wood', then he has a frame of reference, as the spell falls under both. He can learn in as an Evocation spell...and in so doing, maybe get a feel for the 'Wood' aspect as well. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 19:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You could rule that wizards can only *research* certain spells by themselves when going up a level, and in order to get really cool ones, they have to find them from enemy spellcasters. For instance, your wizard might only be able to take D&D Essentials spells normally, but if he wants an Arcane Power spell, it requires taking it from a foe (or a sidequest to find a teacher).
You can also allow players to tweak existing spells through spell research. Maybe your hero wants an acid ball instead of a fireball--spend some resources on it and you now have a fireball that deals acid damage instead. Be careful with this, as breaking the mechanics too much can unbalance your game.
Might I also suggest a new feat . . .?
Spell Creator
Choose one encounter or daily spell per tier (i.e. levels 1-10, 1 spell; levels 11-20, 2 spells; levels 21-30, 3 spells). You create a spell similar to that spell but unique to you. You may alter one of that spell's damage types to any other damage type (you cannot pick non-typed) and pick a different non-AC defense to target (you cannot change a spell that targets AC). These choices cannot be reversed once made unless you retrain the spell or lose the Spell Creator feat.
Cheers
I like the idea of this, although in some ways "wizard" implies to me that they should just be able to do this as a class feature rather than having to spend a feat. With years, often decades of study under their belt, they should understand key aspects of the arcane power source IMO.
Or maybe it should be more like a character theme? Like the themes in Neverwinter, for example. Some wizards adventure, others devote lifetimes to teaching, still others are innovators and creators that tweak old spells and develop new ones.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 19:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So I have a 4E question... what spells can a wizard co-opt from an enemy's spellbook? Could a wizard use the spellbook of a swordmage, for example? Clerical-divine magic would be totally out, but what about picking up a spellbook from any arcane caster class? I suspect there are limits, yes?
Honestly, I'd say that if the Wizard took Multiclass feats for the Swordmage then I'd be OK with them adding Swordmage spells to their spellbook but they'd only be able to "swap" spells as the Multiclass rules suggest. For example a Wizard who take the Swordmage Multiclass feat and Novice Power would only be able to exchange 1 wizard encounter spell for a Swordmage spell BUT they could learn multiple Swordmage spells of that level or lower to be their "One" spell. To me this isn't really an issue of allowing more options but keeping the restriction of what Powers you can prepare and use that stay on Par with the rules.
Though from a mechanical standpoint, if a Wizard wants to take Swordmage powers then they're better off doing one of two things: First is Hybrid Swordmage|Wizard as it's just straight awesome or Second, go Bladesinger and Multiclass Swordmage.
As for 3E sorcerers, my wife really enjoys them, much more than wizards and it's mainly due to preparation of spells before the beginning of the day. To her, it's a bother to have to pick certain spells each and every day instead of just knowing a select few and casting them willy-nilly as is the Sorcerer's M.O.
I definitely understand wanting to limit things from a mechanical point of view, to keep classes "on track" in a manner of speaking, but can't the new Bladesinger opt to start with certain different spells from the wizard set? Seems like it should also work the other way around for wizards? Or perhaps make "class specific" arcane spells a bit harder for basic wizards to use, like increase the level requirement a bit? Or require additional training of some kind?
I'd agree that there are certain things that should be sacrificed for being a generalist wizard. But there's just something about picking up a spellbook and being able to use/adapt spells that feels right for a generalist. They've studied magic, and should know its deeper secrets.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4448 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 14:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I definitely understand wanting to limit things from a mechanical point of view, to keep classes "on track" in a manner of speaking, but can't the new Bladesinger opt to start with certain different spells from the wizard set? Seems like it should also work the other way around for wizards? Or perhaps make "class specific" arcane spells a bit harder for basic wizards to use, like increase the level requirement a bit? Or require additional training of some kind?
The Bladesinger is a specialized class that's a sub-class of the Wizard. So it automatically gains powers from the Wizard class as well as taking Wizard-specific feats. They also gain a certain number of specific "bladesinger" at-will powers which only bladesingers can use (not even wizards have access to).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'd agree that there are certain things that should be sacrificed for being a generalist wizard. But there's just something about picking up a spellbook and being able to use/adapt spells that feels right for a generalist. They've studied magic, and should know its deeper secrets.
While I don't feel it would make the Wizard too over-balanced, it still might pose an issue where a Wizard obtains Swordmage powers. |
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Spellbooks in 4E
