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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12223 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 11:48:26
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Hey, I was thinking about something and wanted to just throw some gathered facts out and see what comes back. We know Zhengyi was in alliance with Orcus (possibly a servant). We know he was at least level 30 when the Throne of Bloodstone module came out. We know that he had only been undead for "nearly four centuries" in 1357. We know that he was "formerly" one of the wizards of Thay. We don't know if he was still in Thay when the rule of Zulkirs was established in 1030 DR, so it may be safe to assume that he was one of the rebels within the newly forming Thayan government who didn't want to see "an ultimate ruler over all other necromancers in the kingdom". Do we have any other interesting knowledge of his "formative" years?
NOTE: This is all theoretical (though at some point, I may actually develop a stat sheet for him for the fun of it). Given the changes over the years, I'd obviously do a slightly different take on Zhengyi's classes. If anyone has any ideas that fit, I'd be interested in hearing them. He was definitely a necromancer with ties to the abyss. Despite being a "wizard of Thay", I don't see him with that prestige class. I could see him as a "master specialist" prestige class, maybe some levels in archmage. I could also see him as a warlock in addition to being a necromancer, possibly with the prestige class that builds both of those paths. Are there any really good DEMON focused summoning classes (besides Nar Demonbinder, which he may have some of as well)?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 12:26:38
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Zhengyi the Witch-King is the lichy villain from the Bloodstone Pass modules (possibly written by RAS) and the Sellswords novel trilogy (definitely written by RAS). Wikipedia and FR Wiki both offer brief articles which summarize the basic facts known about Zhengyi. His name and title are often mentioned in various articles about Damara, Vaasa, and other Moonsea regions.
Numerous histories are recorded throughout the ether although many of them repeat variations of the above summaries or include elaborations of dubious authenticity. This one appears almost legitimate, if somewhat sparse. This one (like many others) provides the sort of detailed information necessary to wage a campaign against Zhengyi's evil, a useful source of ideas if nothing else. I could find no lore specifically addressing Zhenghyi within the grand floating libraries of the Wizards, although some might perhaps be located behind the DDI warding magics I am unable to penetrate.
This old scroll provides a few hints about about Zhengyi's past, as well as a few hints about where best to look for more information. I personally find the mystical google orb is more capable at divining knowledge from Candlekeep's scrolls than the keep's search genie when given multiple directives.
I am of the opinion that Zhengyi was constructed with 2E rules, or more accurately, firmly (re)located into 2E from vaguely 1E origins. If no further writeups have updated him to 3E and beyond then I think it's safe to say that no more lore exists ... I suspect you might get little from Ed or RAS, although it certainly wouldn't hurt to try asking. Records about Zhengyi's past may have been deliberately erased, and it's never impossible for reports of his death to have been greatly exaggerated ... |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Aug 2011 12:59:55 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 12:59:12
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I thought it had been fairly established in fantasy that the title “Witch” is exclusively for females. Is Zhengyi a hermaphrodite? Formerly female? A female inhabiting the “bones” of a male? Gay?
Anyway, did he make another appearance after Promise of the Witch-King? He was defeated and destroyed, but as we all know, there's no such thing as utterly dead in FR. So maybe his contingency phylactery is just lying somewhere, or maybe had long been activated; and now he walks Faerun once again... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Aug 2011 13:08:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 13:16:59
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Zhengyi is the only example I know of a male in the Realms who bears the title Witch, and I suspect it was inspired by Tolkien's Witch-king.
Witch-type males in the Realms seem to typically be called warlocks, necromancers, or dark priests. I doubt it has anything to do with gender or sexual preferences - perhaps Zhengyi was indeed gay, or whatever, in life, carrying a mixed-gender title across the centuries? It's also not impossible Zhengyi was female, a few centuries of lichy decay might result in a rather indeterminate gender, perhaps she was assigned a masculine pronoun by ignorant subjects (and enemies) with chauvinistic assumptions about invincibly powerful warrior-wizard kings? For all I know the Red Wizards were once a male-only organization and female Zhengyi confused the issue with whatever deception was necessary to graduate from their ranks. Indeed, such a deception might still be in effect.
There are precedents in our own history with female Lords and male Countesses ... the result of awkward feudal laws being tangled with titles and bloodlines and messy accidents of ascension and inheritence.
I presume Zhengyi is/was male and Witch-King is an essentially unique title. It could even be the result of imperfect translation through dead languages. Doesn't bother me at all.
I'm unaware of any further development of Zhengyi once Bloodstone and Sellswords ended. Frequently mentioned in historical passages yet no new information is ever detailed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Aug 2011 13:29:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 13:26:33
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Thanks, Arik, for that reference to the Witch-king of Angmar. I guess it's just that witch is "conventionally" deemed a female title. We already have one neutral term for spellcasters: wizard.
This made me recall Warhammer's Witch Hunters, who do not just hunt female spellweavers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Aug 2011 13:27:06 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 13:29:02
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The are the witch-lords of the Wyvernwater, led by the Witch-duke (male). And witch doctors.
Maybe the Witch-king means he enslaved a lot of Rashemi witches. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 13:49:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Maybe the Witch-king means he enslaved a lot of Rashemi witches.
An intriguing prospect. Though how he managed to do that would need a very convincing explanation. Szass Tam is (arguably) more powerful than Zhengyi and is geographically near Rashemen, but even he didn't manage to do such feat. So... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 14:32:49
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I agree that Zhengyi probably didn't enslave many Rashemi witches. It's just not mentioned anywhere in Rashemen's history, whereas endless magical conflict with Thay is a central theme.
Then again, Zhengyi wouldn't have been constrained by the necessities of maintaining a power balance against seven murderously competitive Zulkirs, numerous political ambitions within Thay, and countless enemies outside of Thay. It's not impossible that he could've done some real damage to Rashemen if that were his focus. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 14:42:14
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Initially Zhengyi had close relations with the Grandfather of Assassins, so perhaps he intended to use assassination as the main means of securing a position of power in Thay. After the Zulkirs got wind of this he and the guild of Bhaal worshiping assassins might have gone underground in Gehenna, eventually traveling to the Abyss to meet up with Orcus and gain lichdom.
Though the Witch-King sounds distinctly masculine, I can see Zhengyi being used as a female mulani name, so perhaps the Witch-King was female in her human form, but doesn't see itself as a genderized mortal anymore. I also agree with Arik that RAS probably stole from the list of Bad-Ass names that Tolkien used, and thought of Zhengyi as purely male. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 16:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Though the Witch-King sounds distinctly masculine, I can see Zhengyi being used as a female mulani name...
Sounds like a Chinese girl's name. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 16:41:55
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In real-life modern pagan Wicca, male practitioners call themselves "witches" along with women. Perhaps it's a cultural "thing" from the region, or a derivation that indicates the type of power he used (like "druid" vs "mage"). "Witch" in the Realms probably isn't derived from "Wicce" (as in real life), but likely from "Wychlaran".
We do know that male Rashemi with magic are called "vremyonni" or "Old Ones", and don't act as the wychlaran. Instead, the males go into a kind of seclusion and make magic weapons, serve as advisors to Rashemi berserker lodges. Either they go into seclusion in these hidden refuges, or they leave Rashemen.
So perhaps, "Witch"-king is a title meant to say, "I have the power of the wychlaran, even though I'm a male."
Additionally, Zhengyi arose 400-plus years ago, and tons of things could have been different. Not just culturally, but also in terms of magical differences, training by the Red Wizards, perhaps he even studied the magic of the Wychlaran -with- one of the female witches and that might be why there's a cultural split between males and females in Rashemi society today. We often like to think that things remain stable culturally, but 400 years is a -very- long time.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 16:51:08
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That's an interesting postulation, Therise. I specially like the “"Witch"-king is a title meant to say, "I have the power of the wychlaran, even though I'm a male."
Or maybe it was from the durthans that he learned Rashemi witchcraft. In the first place, many of the durthans have been known to be great necromancers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 21:20:49
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I am quite certain that 1E and 2E sources do not have any mentions as to the origins and formative years of Zhengyi in the Realms. The Bloodstone quartet (by Doug Niles, initially, and definitely no R.A. Salvatore involved; his first involvement was FR9-The Bloodstone Lands) was originally not set in the Realms; out of the four modules, only the last bears the Forgotten Realms logo, and it is the first time that Zhengyi is referred to as "Formerly one of the wizards of Thay" . Judging from a reply from Big Ed to one of my more inane questions ("Why Red?"), I get the impression that prior to the Thayvian rebellion, there may have been several sects of wizards in Thay, of which the future reds were but one.
Zhengyi is mentioned quite often in the Northern Journey series, which makes him a Red Wizard (as did FR9), and which makes him leaving Thay a relatively recent event, for running afoul of Szass Tam.
In my years as a DM, I've throught about Zhengyi occasionally, and worked on him. I've always considered him as one of the original Red Wizards; his affinity for the Abyss would fit in, as the Reds relied heavily on demons / tanar'ri (also see: Eltab) in their war against the Mulhorandi. Although in canon, Zhengyi is always referenced as male, I've re-written the NPC as female (Zhengyi the Witch-Queen), and as a Tam, a contemporary of Szass Tam. One of the major NPCs in several of my campaigns was a seriously beefed-up cambion; I made Zhengyi his mother, Orcus his daddy, and the birth of junior the trigger for transformation into a lich (in 1E and 2E, a cambion birth resulted in the death of the mother; Zhengyi died, and her lich preparations triggered upon her death).
I also placed the demise of Orcus at around 1235-1240 DR, since at the time I was more interested in running the Planescape modules concerning the old boy's return from the dead, rather than fitting him into the Realms (the "Orcus" defeated by the Bloodstone Heroes was a simulacrum of sorts, in my Realms, with ties into my overall metagame - cute, but pretentious word, that  , which, in turn, led to the Planescape series of modules, in that the destruction of the simulacrum was the kick near-dead Orcus needed to get revived). I placed Zhengyi's fall from grace at around the time of Orcus's demise; figuring that Orcus might be vying with Myrkul for adherents among the necromancers of Thay, Orcus's sudden silence would have been a good opportunity for the not-Orcus camp to downsize the overhead a little bit.
As for mechanics - I'm still stuck in AD&D 2.5, but when it comes to the build in 3.0 / 3.5 / Pathfinder, I'd say - go wild. I've gotten the impression (again, answers to the "Why Red?" question that people like Szass Tam are far older than they are assumed to be on the basis timelines made available to the general public. Zhengyi would fall into that category - any obscure "lost" prestige class that fits the character's mood can probably be brought up. (s)He would not even have to be a Red Wizard proper, so... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 07:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Are there any really good DEMON focused summoning classes (besides Nar Demonbinder, which he may have some of as well)?
There's the demonbinder from Drow of the Underdark, except it has the drow requirement.
long ago I did stat Zhengyi as Necromancer/Binder/Anima Mage/Wyrm Wizard |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 08:32:06
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quote:
... except it has the drow requirement.
Meeting that requirement by acquiring a drow can't be too hard. All you really need are the talking parts anyhow. Even the dead can be interrogated. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 08:32:21
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| he could graft drow flesh on his withered skull, there's lots of them below Vaasa |
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Zhengyi - the red wizard
