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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 08:50:31
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While working on the 'minotaur realms' for my homebrew world of Amasaria, I started thinking about the minotaurs of published official worlds. Probably the most well known would be the Minotaurs of Ansalon and Taladas on Krynn in DL.
But what about the Realms?. There has never been much in the way of minotaur related topics or realms when it comes to Faerun, so why is that?. Also, have any FR DM's perhaps, ever created a minotaur realm for their own home FR campaign?. If so, I would like to hear about them.
I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss, so let's hear your thoughts and opinions of the subject...
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:18:00
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It's probably fine that they didn't. Since there is already a minotaur realm in DL, why do one in FR? Besides, like the original minotaur, I personally prefer them as more individual creatures, sort of divine or arcane magical alterations to create a guardian. No need for a society full of them...
Also the 'generic' minotaur from the MM doesn't even resemble its more advanced cousin of DL. At best one would have a savage tribe of these brutes in some remote mountainous area. (Thar?) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:28:50
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Hmm...interesting.
It's certainly one interpretation.
I wonder...perhaps it would be interesting to write-up a small realm of minotaurs for use in FR. Maybe this is something I can work on and then add to my Travelogue in the Adventuring section.
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:31:18
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Well Minotaurs have only been mentioned as part of the Realms in Condemnation (War of the Spider Queen book 3) and is mentioned briefly in the recent Underdark book as part of the Labyrinth region in the North.
Then theres also the video at the beginning of Neverwinter Nights, which shows a minotaur battling within some ruins (as to where that is based, if anywhere, is unknown to me). |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:35:45
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Most of Toril is no longer Terra Incognita - with the exception of the Underdark. It would be very unlikely to find a culture of minotaurs above ground, unless it would be a very remote and isolated area - and there aren't many of those left...
Of course in the underdark there are options enough to put something there, yet even the Underdark is becoming more and more crowded already. When once species would be clasified as rare or very rare, with the addition of recent products and novels, it seems that they have come out of their closets and turned in to common - almost so much that one would stumble over a drow on every streetcorner in the Realms above (figure of speech) |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Most of Toril is no longer Terra Incognita - with the exception of the Underdark. It would be very unlikely to find a culture of minotaurs above ground, unless it would be a very remote and isolated area - and there aren't many of those left...
Of course in the underdark there are options enough to put something there, yet even the Underdark is becoming more and more crowded already. When once species would be clasified as rare or very rare, with the addition of recent products and novels, it seems that they have come out of their closets and turned in to common - almost so much that one would stumble over a drow on every streetcorner in the Realms above (figure of speech)
Well theres no part of Faerun itself unexplored, but since the release of FR 3rd ed. there are a number of large land masses undiscovered which have maybe been put there by WotC to allow DM's to develop something which wont be touched in an official way (much like Sembia used to be). I guess an area such as that could be used for a minotaur settlement. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 10:47:47
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True, these landmasses on seperate continents (existed also in 2e - see the Interactive Atlas) and they might be locations where one conceivably put a Minotaur culture.
However with the majority of events still going on in Faerun proper, what 'value-add' would this be for the world as a whole, other then potentially lifting a DL concept over to FR? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 20:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rad
Well theres no part of Faerun itself unexplored
I don't think so. There are surely large areas of mysterious, monster-haunted wilderness little travelled or understood by civilized nations and cities, or Faerūn would be a depressing place. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 05:39:24
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I agree Faraer. I like the thought that there are still areas of the Realms - and Toril at large for that matter - that are still uncharted. In fact I play most of my FR campaigns under this assumption.
There are wide expanses of land throughout most of the southern reaches of Faerun that could conceivably support a monstrous civilisation, albeit a small- to moderate-sized realm.
We also have the multitude ranges of mountains that are scattered across the land, most of which are home to various orc, orge and giant tribes and clans. Who knows what else could be living among the heights of some of those harder-to-reach ranges?.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 09:11:49
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I think it's one of those things that should be open to interpretation by the DM. My favorite such instance is Sage's version of Chult. (I seem to be quoting that one a bit, aren't I?  )
Oh, and minotaurs were outside the ruins of Myth Drannor in Eye of the Beholder III, if you recall. And there were minotaurs in Dungeon Hack as well. Neverwinter Nights wasn't the first. Though that video is much better. (Just wish I could actually get the game to play right on my computer. *&^^$ waste of money.) |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 09:58:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Rad
Well theres no part of Faerun itself unexplored
I don't think so. There are surely large areas of mysterious, monster-haunted wilderness little travelled or understood by civilized nations and cities, or Faerūn would be a depressing place.
Youre quite right Faraer, I meant that the lands of Faerun are mapped....to a certain extent. Whilst there are vast amounts of wilderness already plotted, its not to say that there arent undiscovered colonies or features. Take the Shaar, or the Endless Waste.... on a map looks to be just empty wilderness\plains, but im sure there are many features over that expanse. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 10:25:43
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| It wouldn't really be in the classical character of a minotaur to be comfortable in open plains and such, either. Likely the only natural-feeling place on the surface would be a mountainous region cut with nigh-endless ravines. Taking refuge in abandoned runins and the Underdark isn't really out of character for a minotaur. I could even see some universal themes developed for social structure in these places. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 10:43:30
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As nomadic, barbaric tribes roaming the endless tunnels of the Underdark, I could envision some sort of Minotaur culture, but definately not one on par with the Krynn Minotaurs.
Being creatures of low intelligence, they will not have developed advanced societies, and their nature also steers them away from such.
The underground would also fit in with the stats of the creature in the MM: any underground. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 12:21:26
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Bookwyrm said -
quote:
It wouldn't really be in the classical character of a minotaur to be comfortable in open plains and such, either.
Indeed, I agree. However there has been evidence in some fantasy settings that would suggest a differing alternative.
To again use the Krynnish minotaurs as an example, their main homeland (at least on Ansalon anyway) consists largely of two islands with sparse vegetation and plain-like environments.
To quote an excerpt from DLCS on the WotC site book archives -
quote:
Kothas: Just south of Mithas is the island of Kothas. Minotaurs and pirates rule this land. Kothas has sparse vegetation and no volcanoes. Most of the isle's population dwells in the capital city of Kalpethis (Large City, 17,095) and along the coast.
Mithas: Just south of Karthay is Mithas, which is the home of the minotaurs. Mithas is a volcanic island with four active volcanoes that overlook scrub plains. The capital is Lacynos (Large City, 20,457) -- or "Nethosak" in Kothian -- which lies shielded from the Blood Sea by the Horned Bay.
So there is at least fantastical evidence to support a plain-raised minotaur culture.
In any case, I tend to see a Faerun Minotaur closely resembling (at least in terms of attitude, outlook, and stats) the MM and Savage Species interpretation of the monstrous creature, and not the DL modified version for 3e.
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 17:34:30
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With a rag - which closely resembles the one Winthrop used - Mumadar wipes his head. "Phew... Sage, you had me worried. Your initial thoughts seemed to hint that you'd be interested in seeing the Krynn version of the Minotaur in the Realms. However, the last statement seems to wipe away my doubts and fears."
"Now that this point seems cleared up... With the interpretation from the Monster Manual tome and the Savage Species scrolls, the Faerunian Minotaur appears to be an (primarely) underground dwelling savage creature with low intelect and plenty of (survival) instincts. Not a race who'd have left behind a legacy of fantastic ruins."
"I'd think these brutes came to Faerun as the result of summoning spells or inter-planar gates. Having arrived in sufficient numbers, they have been able to reproduce and populate areas in Faerun's bowels."
"The sightings of the creatures near the ruins of Myth Drannor therefore doesn't surprise me at all, considering the amount of Demons and Devils roaming the area." |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 22:32:33
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| Well... technically... if you go by some of the novels, i believe it was Evermeet or such that hinted that humans were the only true race of faerun... elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, etc. all came from their own world, it was their gods that provided a portal or such for them to arrive in toril... or at least i recall reading that somewhere... but then my memory is faulty... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2003 : 05:39:48
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal said -
quote:
Your initial thoughts seemed to hint that you'd be interested in seeing the Krynn version of the Minotaur in the Realms.
Yes, that is definitely not something that I would like to see anywhere on Faerun.
To me at least (although there are some gamers that I know of who wish otherwise) the Minotaurs of Krynn fit well with the general theme of that particular campaign setting. Their societal attitudes, world outlook, and racial bearing all contribute to the general feel of the DL saga. There just isn't any type of theme in the FR storyline to support a 'Krynnish Minotaur League' in an FR environment.
I think, if I intend to go ahead with this idea, of creating a minotaur realm for Faerun, I will start from what we know of the race as presented in the MM and Savage Species.
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Fibura Gauntlet
Seeker
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2003 : 15:37:56
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Honestly! I come to Candlekeep to escape the debate raging on Krynn as to whether Minotaurs (Kaz in particular) have hooves or feet and what do I find? They're everywhere  quote:
I think, if I intend to go ahead with this idea, of creating a minotaur realm for Faerun, I will start from what we know of the race as presented in the MM and Savage Species.
I'd be interested to see if a plausible society could be constructed using the standard Minotaur. I tend to prefer Minotaurs as cursed individuals or magical guardians rather than bull-headed ogres. I'm thinking you could use the old "village labouring under a curse" routine to explain a small out-of-the-way group of Minotaurs, but I'm not sure about anything larger. That said, I'd be as loathe to see every Minotaur stomping round a de facto Labyrinth as I would to see every Dragon sat on a big fat pile of gold waiting to be burgled  |
- Fibura Gauntlet
A scrib(bl)e on the margins of Candlekeep |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2003 : 19:42:57
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| A minotaur civilization in the realms could have been similar to that of the Quaggoths: enough intelligence to establish a functioning albeit primitive society, but unable to compete with other, expanding Underdark civilizations. There could even have been an "enchanced" ruling class created by Baphomet, similar to Sess'innek creating the Lizard Kings. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 06:56:09
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Fibura Gauntlet said -
quote:
I tend to prefer Minotaurs as cursed individuals or magical guardians rather than bull-headed ogres.
Perhaps you should look into the Warhammer Armies: Beasts of Chaos tome. There is a great deal of useful material in that book that details minotaur (and goat-headed) type creatures which follow this 'cursed' theme. In fact when I was starting development on my own Minotaur realm, I 'borrowed' an idea or two, then expanded upon those ideas, and ended up generating an entirely original mountain-dwelling minotaur society complete with very unique cultural traits.
lowtech said -
quote:
There could even have been an "enchanced" ruling class created by Baphomet, similar to Sess'innek creating the Lizard Kings.
That's an interesting idea, but that is probably as far as I'd take it. No need to say that this hypothetical ruling class was corrupted by another deity to be used as that same deity's personal servants.
What would be interesting is to have this ruling class represent Baphomet's word on Faerun. Since the Minotaur god has difficulty sending avatars to the Material Plane, this ruling elite could take advantage of that fact and present their own agenda as Baphomet's word.
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 19:35:19
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| hmm... well since no one responded to my comment... wanna know if anyone else recalls reading such info as i mentioned just a few posts up... about each race having their own planet or such and came to toril through some gate... anyone care to agree to having read that anywhere... or to tell me i'm nuts :P |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 07:07:51
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Sorry Zacas, I did read your post, however I had other replies rolling around in my head at the time... .
I do remember reading something akin to that theory several years ago, although I think it was a PS tome...maybe the Planewalker's Handbook...I can't remember. I'll check anyway and let you know.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 07:14:34
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| Well, i'm not that much of an expert on minotaurs. Some might think them magical creations from a long dead wizard. I know nothing of their culture (if they have any). Although it is possible that in eons past they had a civilization of sorts. Not unlike another realm in which I have tampered with long ago. Of course I wouldn't take Mishra's idea too far. The man was a spoiled brat... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 07:43:49
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I will never allow such a sugar coating. He betrayed Urza.. he deserves to rot for eternity.... Misguided or not the man was scum... unsalvagable, unredeemable, unuseful scum...
As for the minotaurs, wouldn't it be something if they did have a supperior civilization in ages past? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 07:51:57
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In an odd and very, VERY twisted way, Urza and Mishra remind me alot of Raistlin and Caramon...
A superior civilization of Minotaurs in ages past...?, hmm...certainly an interesting idea, but not something I would like to see in Faerun's history.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 08:06:10
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| Perhaps, But (while not skilled in Dragonlance much) I have heard that Raistlin had long Crying jags. Appearently Raistlin suffered sever beatings from Caramon when Caramon's temper and his cups got the best of him.... Only stuck with Caramon becuase he was a loyal brother if nothing else... Shame really... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 08:12:13
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Caramon never struck Raistlin  . Caramon cared deeply for his brother, even after everything Raistlin did (almost). I suggest you read up on these two wonderful characters. Just use the link in my profile. It will explain all.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 08:32:05
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Tis the truth I swear!
As told by the great and mighty Highlord Toede. One who knew and gave the fledgling heroes of the lance, their start.
Lord Toede, my favorite DL char (followed closely by the Kingpriest and Highlord Verminaard ) Tis the truth as Told by Toede in 'Lord Toede' (which is by Jeff Grubb. YAY!).
But Anyways, why not. The Minotaurs could have had a great civilization but fell to the brutality of uncultured Elves... Perhaps that is what the Ruins in the Farsea marsh? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 09:40:37
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Me, I stay away from the world of Krynn. Not my sort of place. The dragons are too strange there, always wanting me to take sides in something.
Yessiree, I stay right here in Faerun . . . .
::hides a box marked non-Faerunian studies from Alaundo's view:: |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Minotaurs in the Realms
