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Brin
Acolyte
17 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 03:30:41
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Apologies for any mistakes in lore, or misunderstandings herein. I love reading Forgotten Realms books and its lore but my knowledge is limited to only the novels, I have not read any of the source books.
In all the novels I've read where Lathander shows up he seems to fail at being a "good" God. I know Lathander is not completely dedicated to good, but it has always seemed that he the God of every generic good paladin so he comes off as being a champion of good. So can anyone either inform me of a time or point me to a time where Lathander actually did something good? I'd like to think these are just isolated instances.
Here are the two novels I've read where he failed (Spoiler highlight to read)
Finder's Bane - Lathander tells his paladin follower that he will watch over the plane traveling winged-woman (It has been awhile and I can not remember their names). Lathander watches over her for a few hours and then ditches her to be caught by the people pursuing them.
Paul S. Kemp's The Twilight War series - Lathander lets a schism occur in his church causing a large number of the clerics and paladins found within to sit idle as the Shadowstorm comes along to ruin everyone's sunny day. Lathander grants spells to both sides, fueling the conflict between the two but refuses to simply explain to his followers that he was indeed performing a transition into the new Sun God? If he'd simply told his people then so much conflict would've been avoided.
Apologies if either of the authors take offense. Your books were fantastic, I am just confused why Lathander fails in these instances.
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Edited by - Brin on 10 Aug 2011 03:42:51
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 03:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Brin
Apologies for any mistakes in lore, or misunderstandings herein. I love reading Forgotten Realms books and its lore but my knowledge is limited to only the novels, I have not read any of the source books.
In all the novels I've read where Lathander shows up he seems to fail at being a "good" God. I know Lathander is not completely dedicated to good, but it has always seemed that he the God of every generic good paladin so he comes off as being a champion of good.
Here are the two novels I've read where he failed (Spoiler highlight to read)
Finder's Bane - Lathander tells his paladin follower that he will watch over the plane traveling winged-woman (It has been awhile and I can not remember their names). Lathander watches over her for a few hours and then ditches her to be caught by the people pursuing them.
Paul S. Kemp's The Twilight War series - Lathander lets a schism occur in his church causing a large number of the clerics and paladins found within to sit idle as the Shadowstorm comes along to ruin everyone's sunny day. Lathander grants spells to both sides, fueling the conflict between the two but refuses to simply explain to his followers that he was indeed performing a transition into the new Sun God? If he'd simply told his people then so much conflict would've been avoided.
Apologies if either of the authors take offense. Your books were fantastic, I am just confused why Lathander fails in these instances.
Because as the god of youth (linked with Dawn and rebirth), he's the unofficial god of bad choices (like in Tymora's Luck where he tries to Fuse her with Beshaba, when his paladin tries to stop him as he was fusing the against their will, he basically asked how she could dare go against her god). |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 07:34:44
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He might not be lucid enough during those occasions. Besides, the gods are not infallible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 08:55:34
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Well, he personally came down with his avatar to destroy Sammaster the lich. And he helped a lot of his servants by channeling his power to destroy a lot of undead and evil creatures.
Perfectionism of the gods is a fault by itself. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 09:15:00
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| He loses interest after a while, he's good at starting thing but not finishing them |
z455t |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 14:15:04
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Gods work in mysterious (or stupid) ways, and mere mortals couldn't exactly comprehend them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brin
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 14:18:57
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| Well I am not saying he has to be perfect merely that I had yet to see an instance of him being a good God. I did not know of his avatar slaying a Lich, so that is good at least he did something right once. It has become a habit amongst my friends to make fun of Lathander calling him the worst God because of his botched efforts at being good, so I figured I might as well see if anyone knows of redeeming information about him or spread word of his incompetence. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 18:13:27
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Lathander also represents youthful exuberance, and that's reflected in his sometimes misguided maneuvers and his sometimes short attention span. It's not that he's evil or incompetent, it's that he is often so focused on the end result that he doesn't think things thru as well as he should.
In the referred to scene in Finder's Bane, I think it was a servant of Lathander, and not Lathander himself. And that servant did not ditch her -- it stayed until Jasmine woke up, as promised. Jasmine then fell back asleep -- but the letter of the agreement was met, though the intent of it was not.
I can't think of any grand deeds Lathander has done that are good, other than fighting Sammy -- but I can say the same for a lot of good deities. Lathander does do good deeds, such as having people working to reclaim Myth Drannor before the Crusade, or giving his priests increased abilities for turning undead. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 18:41:34
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Abelar deserted Lathander for not saving his son, who meant the world to him. Despite that, the Morninglord still granted him enough spells to vanquish a number of wraiths as he and Furlinastis entered the Shadowstorm and fought its undead monstrosities. That's something good on Lathander's part. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 02:49:51
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My thoughts (my opinion) about Lathander/etc ...
To be honest, Talos and Bane and (post-Shadovar) Shar have been reasonably active divine villains, although they really haven't raised the bar at all so Lathander hardly needs to bother expending any effort to combat them. Luckily this works out well enough for the Realms, since Lathander has in actual fact hardly bothered to expend any real effort to combat them. There's always some random local heroes who will take out the bad guys, even clerics of vain Sune and Finder will suffice, even warriors who bellow for Tempus and thieves skulking behind Mask ... no need to deploy those legendary glowing paladins. Let's not even mention the lack of attention Lathander needs to waste on simpering sneering Cyric. What an inspirational leader for the pantheon, eh?
[Edit: Shar has been especially successful in some of her evil plots - and evidently Lathander didn't, couldn't, or wouldn't do anything to oppose her, beyond sacrificing a single (excommunicated) paladin in the heart of the Shadowstorm. Yay, Lathander finally did something to oppose darkness when nudged to action by shadowy agents of Mask. Too bad Mask didn't nudge Lathander in time to halt Shar from creating the Spellplague, but then again Lathander would probably be impotent as usual against Shar anyhow.]
I realize that Faerūnian powers of any stature can manifest any gender and appearance they prefer, but the reality is that Lathander is most often seen (in the fiction) as something of a radiant patriarchal sky god, although admittedly a young unbearded one, and with his divine office comes a certain expectation of lofty detached authority.
Many people seem to identify more strongly with Torm than Lathander. I suspect this is because while Torm is a weaker power he's generally more involved in the workings of the world, he rolls his sacred sleeves up and gets his sacred hands dirty championing good where he can instead of spending his time lackadaisically staring off at beautifully rosy sunrises. Tyr has always been strangely unpopular (at least when he's not leading the charging vanguard of mighty celestial legions), he's even been arbitrarily maimed and abused by the authors, relegated to more a role of divine apparatchik, a sort of god for snake-tongued lawyers and halfwitted bureaucrats rather than one of establishing rules for fairness and justice. Tymora, Selūne, and the many Mystras are simply very attractive divinities (in both cosmetic and substantive terms) whose feminine company most authors and readers seem to more readily prefer.
So in the end I see Lathander being redundant and almost like a divine figurehead. He doesn't strike me as a god worth worshipping since he (and by extension his church) doesn't seem to do anything significant while the rest of the good-aligned segment of his pantheon constantly struggle to oppose the endless shades of darkness moving across Faerūn. In my opinion Lathander should really just sharpen his ears and frolic away to join the Seldarine, where he clearly belongs. I honestly feel the Realms might've been better off losing Lathander and keeping Waukeen.
My apologies too for any possible offense, none is intended, beyond my personal offense at seeing lazy parasites who are rewarded for no reason other than the fact they were given powerful station. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Aug 2011 03:18:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 03:57:10
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| I wouldn't say that Tyr has been arbitrarily maimed... The one-handed thing comes straight from Norse mythology, as did Tyr himself. Granted, they did take the additional step of blinding him... But at least in the US, there is a saying that justice is blind. And his blinding has never had any effect in game terms, so it's really a moot point, anyway. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 06:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My apologies too for any possible offense, none is intended, beyond my personal offense at seeing lazy parasites who are rewarded for no reason other than the fact they were given powerful station.
Or you could see it as "playing it safe." While he should embody goodness, he must also ensure he retains his station. So as much as he's tempted to help his paladins and followers gain epic victories, he'd rather have them achieve little (but significant) ones, or aid other agents of some deities. Maybe he doesn't want to be marked as target by all the evil-aligned gods. All gods are selfish. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 12:07:12
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I think the question here is power balance. Good deities avoid acting directly as much as they can, because there is a sort of truce of deities not interfering in mortal grounds. Of course, evil gods are much more prone to break the rules, that's why they are more active in the Realms - and remember that they usually act through followers, or the corruption of mortal beings.
Besides, the followers of good deities - adventurers - are, in a way, their eyes and hands on the mortal world. Where would be adventure if the deities solved every risen problem? 
On the other side, maybe the manifestations of the gods of evil could be seen as the ultimate challenges for high-level heroes. Not that I agree with that kind of theme and would use it in my games, but it seems to be a common notion out there. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 12:27:07
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| Lathander successfully interfered with Iakhovas' realms-shattering plans by making Jherek his Chosen (see the Threat from the Sea trilogy). |
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Brin
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 15:45:01
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To Wooly: thanks for clearing up the Finder's Bane... It has been some time since I reread that novel, so I did not have all the details. As for the Gods' deeds going unlooked, I can see that and I do think that that is probably because of the authors. It seems each author has his/her favorite Gods to write about, which is perfectly fine. It is probably even for the best so we don't have the Gods have 30 different personalities depending on the author.
To Arik: You captured my thoughts on it pretty much exactly.
And on a side note I did while rereading Shadowstorm find a small part of the novel where Lathander cured a village (though only one woman in the village was still sick) from plague so that Abelar could ride off to save his son with his men. Lathander did though apparently find it necissary to bless the entire village, not just cure the one sick woman heh. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 19:05:34
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Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents:
Lathander is actually one of my favorite deities (one of the few I've played a cleric for as I usually don't care to play clerics). I see him more as god a of countless (small) good deeds with the occasional grand deed thrown in.
As for his (and others) appearance in novels...I rarely allow the "grand activities that shape the whole Realms" to stand in my personal campaigns. The Avatar trilogy turned out very different for my campaign, the Tuigan Horde was a different kind of invasion force (they weren't 'Mongolian'), and the set of novels that had entire cities from the Moonsea area disappearing for a time did not occur in my home group at all.
Moral of the story: make the Realms your own rather than sticking soley with the 'canon' offered. If you prefer Lathander to have a different flavor for your campaign then adjust him accordingly. For instance, Mystra's third incarnation is true neutral in my campaign (and Midnight wasn't actually mortal in mine either).
Just my 2 cents, it's not my intention to step on anyone's toes or to be critical of novels or other's opinions. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lathander Incompetent?
