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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 22:39:08
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| I suppose that Brian R. James has no comment on my questions on the 1st page of this thread? Pity. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 02:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I suppose that Brian R. James has no comment on my questions on the 1st page of this thread? Pity.
Maybe he has missed them? Brian doesn't visit Candlekeep as much any more, unfortunately.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 07:01:41
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Not to disrupt the discussion, but re: the dread ring in Neverwinter: sculpting a mystery in the Realms is not "failing" at continuity. It is doing exactly what makes the realms a cool and wide-ranging setting: providing hooks for your DM, fostering a sense of discovery and mystery, and weaving a complex story.
And also, just because you don't "know" an explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. I can envision about a dozen possibilities off the top of my head, all of which are quite in keeping with the lore.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 25 Aug 2011 17:05:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 11:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And also, just because you don't "know" an explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. I can envision about a dozen possibilities off the top of my head, all of which are quite in keeping with the lore.
Yes. However, it would seem to contradict reason that Szass Tam is creating Dread Rings in the very place where he can easily be crushed by his potential enemies. Unless, again, if the DR in Neverwinter is nothing but a decoy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 18:40:46
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| Is there a timeline available for the Thayan Dread Ring stuff from RLB's "The Haunted Lands Trilogy"? I haven't read it, yet, and I'd like to see how Gauntlgrym's stuff fits in. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 00:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes. However, it would seem to contradict reason that Szass Tam is creating Dread Rings in the very place where he can easily be crushed by his potential enemies. Unless, again, if the DR in Neverwinter is nothing but a decoy.
I suspect that "Szass Tam" and "can easily be crushed" don't belong in the same sentence. Maybe he could be defeated, but the cost of doing so would be high indeed. (I plan to kill at least two PCs should the group I'm running ever attack him.)
That said, in your own game, you need to make up the explanation that makes the most sense for you. If it's a decoy, it's a decoy. We left it purposefully vague for just that reason. 
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 08:04:08
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Maybe WotC intends to brew yet another major RSE, and Szass Tam's peculiar move in the Sword Coast is just one symptom. Thay versus Netheril. Hmm. If only... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 13:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Maybe WotC intends to brew yet another major RSE, and Szass Tam's peculiar move in the Sword Coast is just one symptom. Thay versus Netheril. Hmm. If only...
It wouldn't surprise me. We've not had an RSE for almost three days...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 13:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Maybe WotC intends to brew yet another major RSE, and Szass Tam's peculiar move in the Sword Coast is just one symptom. Thay versus Netheril. Hmm. If only...
It wouldn't surprise me. We've not had an RSE for almost three days...
I wouldn't mind, as long as I get to see my favorite characters in action again. Besides, peace spawns boredom. 'Tis time to yet again shatter some things. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 13:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Is there a timeline available for the Thayan Dread Ring stuff from RLB's "The Haunted Lands Trilogy"? I haven't read it, yet, and I'd like to see how Gauntlgrym's stuff fits in.
I will look into it later. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 16:45:37
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For those who think that Szass Tam was defeated in the Neverwinter Wood campaign, consider:
1. The fire primordial's trap beneath Mount Hotenow was shaky and dilapidated before. It's still that way, now. That thing could blow at any point, all over again--Tam or no Tam.
2. While Dahlia pettily declares Sylora's Dread Ring to have failed, we don't necessarily know that. It will not be fed a lot more dead bodies right away, with the primordial locked up again. But that doesn't clear that scar in the ground right away, either. Does it?
Q: Must a Dread Ring be constantly fed and actively maintained, in order to avoid shriveling up? Or does it remain for some indefinite time, like a toxic waste site? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 18:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Q: Must a Dread Ring be constantly fed and actively maintained, in order to avoid shriveling up? Or does it remain for some indefinite time, like a toxic waste site?
I would say the latter. Though Szass Tam is finely attuned to them. That's why he would know if something disrupts or destroys it, as the case in The Haunted Lands when his fellow zulkirs obliterated one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 01:08:48
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I've always viewed magical pollution as being the Realms equivalent of nuclear waste. It's an extreme biohazard, mutagen, carcinogen, zombiegen ... bad stuff, very dangerous and it takes close to forever to fade away to safe background levels. It can also contaminate anything which comes in contact, it can even ruin other magic.
Elves bury away all those ancient magical swords for good reason, as deeply as they can, just like we bury radioactive waste. We have sites like Chernobyl and Hiroshima; the Realms has Ascalhorn and the Helmlands. From time to time the magical toxins seep out of buried Netherese spellbooks and into the water table; older stockpiles are more prone to containment failure. Bumping into improperly disposed magical pollutants is an occupational hazard for most dwarves and adventurers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 09:09:43
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The ubiquity of undead in Thay---and that alone---already speaks of how polluted the land is, both nature- and magic-wise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 13:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Is there a timeline available for the Thayan Dread Ring stuff from RLB's "The Haunted Lands Trilogy"? I haven't read it, yet, and I'd like to see how Gauntlgrym's stuff fits in.
I will look into it later.
In 1375 DR, The Year of Risen Elfkin
Here began Szass Tam's machinations towards his ultimate goal. Nothing was mentioned about the Dread Rings, but it might be safe to assume he started laying the foundations at this point in time.
In 1385 DR, The Year of Blue Fire
Szass Tam was extremely weakened by the Spellplague. He bargained with Bane to grant him enough power to accomplish his goals; and in return, after a thousand years, Bane could do anything he wished to his soul.
Presumably, he completed all the Dread Rings in Thay, if not all the concepts, at the very least the physical bastions that anchor the Rings' powers to the Prime Material Plane.
In 1478 DR, The Year of the Dark Circle
The Zulkirs, Aoth and Jhesri destroyed one of the Dread Rings in the hope that the destruction of one would render the rest inactive, or the Grand Ritual ineffective. Much to their dismay, Szass Tam created more Rings than what was stated in Fastrin's unholy notes. Szass Tam severed the connection of the shattered Ring so as not to “pollute” the rest or mess up the design.
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It was noted that the Dread Ring in Neverwinter had been “activated” 1462 DR. So that would not make sense. The Dread Rings in Thay had been rendered impotent in 1478 DR. Why would Szass Tam be wandering in Neverwinter when he had to secure the Rings in his realm?! Even if that one in NW was a decoy, he wouldn't be foolish enough to waste his time and resources there when he had the combined forces of the zulkirs battering his door. I am not underestimating his capabilities. It's simple and obvious: someone in WotC didn't bother checking the timeline, which would have taken just one call to Richard or his editor. {Sigh} |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 15:58:06
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Thank ye kindly, Dennis!
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It was noted that the Dread Ring in Neverwinter had been “activated” 1462 DR. So that would not make sense. The Dread Rings in Thay had been rendered impotent in 1478 DR. Why would Szass Tam be wandering in Neverwinter when he had to secure the Rings in his realm?!
Strictly speaking, Tam, himself, was never explicitly said to be in Neverwinter. He sent his lackeys Dalia and Dor'crae, and then Sylora and her Ashmadai soldiers decided to crash the party. Tam remained behind in Thay.
I have only suggested that he might have been the one to belatedly, personally activate the NwW Ring around 1462 DR, but it's never clearly stated who actually did that.
What I'm wondering about is that Thayan Dread Ring that was erected between 1448 & 1451 DR at the beginning of Gauntlgrym. Was this truly a new Ring, in addition to those already completed in "The Haunted Lands"? Could it be just a renovation or expansion of one of those very same Rings? Or Was it the final specimen of one of the original Rings?
Could the NwW Ring have been an attempt to begin an additional, concentric ring around the original ring of Rings in Thay? Might this have been part of a vision to increase the power/efficacy of the original ring of Rings?
Here's a loose analogy. I live in Houston, Texas, USA. We have a series of four concentric highway loops that run around the city, which are all supposed to feed into one another with connecting highways, relieve traffic one one another, offer bypasses in cases of construction shutdowns of the others, etc. The two inner loops are complete, while the two outer loops probably never will be. The further out one goes, the larger the loops get, but eventually one runs into the coastline of the Gulf of Mexico.
quote:
Even if that one in NW was a decoy, he wouldn't be foolish enough to waste his time and resources there when he had the combined forces of the zulkirs battering his door.
How long were Tam and the Zulkirs battling each other? Was this right before 1478 DR, or for years/decades? Would he have known that they were plotting against him and his Rings in 1462 DR?
quote:
It's simple and obvious: someone in WotC didn't bother checking the timeline, which would have taken just one call to Richard or his editor. {Sigh}
Bob has said in the past that the design team tries to hash out stuff in advance, and they send him off to do his thing. He says that he entrusts others to catch this sort of thing. I don't know how this escaped notice early on, unless the powers-that-be were just too busy.
We need that old Realmsian Traffic Cop real bad... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 30 Aug 2011 16:00:33 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 22:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I have only suggested that he might have been the one to belatedly, personally activate the NwW Ring around 1462 DR, but it's never clearly stated who actually did that.
Thanks to his former two apprentices, Szass Tam had already learned his lesson well about trusting anyone. So yes, it is reasonable to assume he wouldn't let anybody learn about the secrets of the Dread Rings, let alone how to activate one. He himself must have activated that one in Neverwinter. If he didn't, well, no surprise there. Obviously, no one bothered to read Jean Rabe's Red Ambition nor RLB's The Haunted Lands.
quote:
How long were Tam and the Zulkirs battling each other? Was this right before 1478 DR, or for years/decades? Would he have known that they were plotting against him and his Rings in 1462 DR?
A few years before the Spellplague till 1478 DR. The zulkirs and their armies were exiled to Wizard's Reach after their defeat. Szass Tam thought they would stay there for good, or be crushed by the Aglarondans. But eventually, with the help of Malark's spies, he learned of their plot to retake Thay. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Troll King
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 12:59:48
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Too right, Erik! Thanks for clearing this up!
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not to disrupt the discussion, but re: the dread ring in Neverwinter: sculpting a mystery in the Realms is not "failing" at continuity. It is doing exactly what makes the realms a cool and wide-ranging setting: providing hooks for your DM, fostering a sense of discovery and mystery, and weaving a complex story.
And also, just because you don't "know" an explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. I can envision about a dozen possibilities off the top of my head, all of which are quite in keeping with the lore.
Cheers
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 14:16:15
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| What are the dread rings exactly, are they like the ley lines substituted with negative energy? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 14:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
What are the dread rings exactly, are they like the ley lines substituted with negative energy?
To quote myself:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Dread Rings are not just the stone walls and bastions. They are more like a focus point. The real Dread Rings are the complex webs of inexhaustible power. Here's an explanation from the novel Unholy:
quote:
Last but most clearly of all, she discerned the Dread Ring itself like a festering wound in the earth. Like a well of unnatural and inexhaustible power. Arcing away from it were lines of force linking it to other such talismans, defining an immense dark circle of death on the face of the land.
That was the Dread Ring that Jhesrhi and her allies had to destroy. Not the stone walls and bastions, although some of those might crack and crumble as an incidental effect of their assault, for battlements and towers could be rebuilt. They had to attack the concept, the potential of the Ring. If they could obliterate that, it would spoil the whole pattern, and none of the similar castles scattered across Thay would serve its intended purpose anymore.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 16:02:13
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| It is vague, sounds like the ley lines when energy is manipulated with megalithic structures forming a pattern. I don't know tough from where the well drains the energy. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 13:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
It is vague, sounds like the ley lines when energy is manipulated with megalithic structures forming a pattern. I don't know tough from where the well drains the energy.
Szass Tam created a pocket universe. It was there where he erected the real Dread Rings. Fastrin must have specified in his notes that such magical constructs would not exist in the material plane, for whatever reason; and that the only way for their power to reach the Prime was to build a magical conduit via the stone-made bastions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 17:16:06
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More like Shadow-Nodes.
That makes them more like Earth Nodes in functionality. One can assume there are nodes for each elemental source (harkening back to the days when positive and negative energy were grouped with them). In 4e terminology, I suppose each 'power source' could have nodes - a martial node would be a rather interesting twist.
Also, theoretically, {old school} alignments could have nodes - Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil. I would imagine most Good & Evil Nodes would be places of worship, but others are possible.
The Weave-Taps in the Erevis Cale series may have been some sort of Arcane Nodes. All of these things are really just 'places of power', attuned to specific type of esoteric energy. "Pools of..." and Moonwells would also fall into this broader category.
On the lighter side....
If you wanted to keep someone out of your dread Rings, would you have to install Dread Locks? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2011 17:17:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 19:02:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the lighter side....
If you wanted to keep someone out of your dread Rings, would you have to install Dread Locks?
Yowch! That was dreadful! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 19:52:51
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If I may add, the Dread Rings should be set in some precise geographical pattern that is only visible to someone who can see in nine dimensions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 23:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If I may add, the Dread Rings should be set in some precise geographical pattern that is only visible to someone who can see in nine dimensions.
Hmmm. I'm starting to wonder, now, if the Dread Rings were, perhaps, set up as some kind of hyper-spatial 9-polytope, perceivable only by those attuned to these festering nodes of evil. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:20:47
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I wonder if Richard thought of that when he invented the Dread Rings. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 19:57:25
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It wouldn't surprise me if one day it would be revealed that it was actually the Imaskari archwizards who invented the Dread Rings, or at the very least, the concepts behind them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 20:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It wouldn't surprise me if one day it would be revealed that it was actually the Imaskari archwizards who invented the Dread Rings, or at the very least, the concepts behind them.
Jamaican High Wizards invented Dread Locks  |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 20:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It wouldn't surprise me if one day it would be revealed that it was actually the Imaskari archwizards who invented the Dread Rings, or at the very least, the concepts behind them.
Jamaican High Wizards invented Dread Locks
Heh! Dey gots da mos' powwaful mojo, mon! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dread Rings
